independent and unofficial
Prince fan community site
Wed 13th Dec 2017 6:17pm
Welcome! Sign up or enter username and password to remember me
Forum jump
Forums > Politics & Religion > Why do we need elections? Why do we need politicians?
« Previous topic  Next topic »
  New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
Author

Tweet     Share

Message
Thread started 09/28/17 12:36pm

2freaky4church
1

avatar

Why do we need elections? Why do we need politicians?

Here's an idea from Anarchism or sanity: Why not end elections? Instead do a lottery where every body who is willing to cooperate has their name in a symbolic hat. Pick their name and they run for six years, whatever. They have to do the bidding of what citizens actually want. No need for elections, or money in politics or lobbys. Professional crooks and systematic bribery would be gone. A lottery citizen could always quit and the lottery would start once again. They would be paid from a collective fund. You would have citizens councils instead of crass statism. No relations at all between them and corporate power. We would have vast debates but every person would have one voice. They could not buy power.

The political class would be gone. Citizens would be more responsible, if not they can be replaced with a simple democratic vote. Done.

DJ is da man
"2freaky is very down." 2Elijah.
"2freaky convinced me to join Antifa: OnlyNDA
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #1 posted 09/29/17 10:35am

TrivialPursuit

As an Anarchist, I believe it's because people are socially lazy. It's much easier to put their energy behind some stranger claiming to get a worthy leader, then go home, sit back and let someone else handle the problems in the community. Yet government has done nothing but create rules with violate former rules, and laws that negate former laws. People get wrapped up in the left or the right, but folks forget they're all in the same building. They're all part of the same system. It's like favoring the side view mirrors over the rearview mirror in the car. You ultimately see the same thing no matter where you look. It's all about perspective, and that perspective is an illusion of difference.

People don't want to be accountable. Oh sure, they take care of their bills, go to work like good little clones 9-5 M-F. But to assess their community and maneuver in a responsible way without the assistance of government is simply not in their wheelhouse. They can't conceive life without a higher authority to fall back on. Hell, I'm surprised more minorities aren't Anarchists. They know, often first hand, what a joke the system is and how it's inherently built against them as minorities. Why they would rally behind another minority trying to "change it from the inside" just seems like insanity to me. It's like someone trying to buddy up with a serial killer to change how he kills people. No boo - murder is still gonna happen. I don't even understand how blacks or Latinos are cops. It really does baffle me. Hell, we've seen off-duty cops get put on the ground with a gun to their head, simply for being black. Imagine if that system of prejudice and racism weren't in play. Imagine the betterment of people when their fear is near-non-existent in worrying about being profiled.

People are scared of responsibility. "But what about criminals???" Yes well, those things are handled at a grassroots level, if necessary. "But who will build the roads???" Oh please, find out how much the state contracts out those services. Who built a road before government started paving pathways?! Did everyone just traipse through fields of grass to get to where they were going? "Gosh, I sure wish Senator Bubba or Congressman Asshole would get a road built through here. We already walk five miles to school, uphill both ways in the cold with no shoes on." Stop it.

Anarchism comes in small pockets at first. The friend who introduced me to Anarchism said to me, "I live my life every single day as to render the government as useless as possible". That rang so true to me. The government operates with fear tactics and lies. To address your life, and those around you, in the opposite way already balks at the criteria for government influence. In short, we don't need politicians. Or elections. We need people to take care of their own, choose to get involved, choose to know your neighbor and everyone on the block. Influence by appealing to the soul, not the fear element. The soul acts, fear reacts. That's the problem. The world is filled with reactionary fools, not pro-active autonomous individuals.

"Despite everything, no 1 can dictate who u r 2 other people." - Prince |
http://bit.ly/unboxingprince
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #2 posted 09/29/17 4:27pm

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

TrivialPursuit are you are an Anarchist? I frankly doubt any exist. I tend to believe they are not really taking into account all that is needed for a society to do well. Like roads... I know one guy that is opposed to the government making any roads... but he sure spends a lot of time driving on them! (and refuses to accept that his 30-minute drive to town on a government built road would take all day if not for said road)


and there is the time he had a crash and the cops had to come help him out...

and how he howls about rights when things do not go his way!


"I was raped by the Arkansas AG who then becomes Governor & President..." Juanita Broaddrick
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #3 posted 09/29/17 7:01pm

TrivialPursuit

OnlyNDaUsa said:

TrivialPursuit are you are an Anarchist? I frankly doubt any exist. [statist snip]



Yes, I am, and I know many.

"Despite everything, no 1 can dictate who u r 2 other people." - Prince |
http://bit.ly/unboxingprince
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #4 posted 09/29/17 7:14pm

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

TrivialPursuit said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

TrivialPursuit are you are an Anarchist? I frankly doubt any exist. [statist snip]



Yes, I am, and I know many.

LOL a statis! and i am saying you are not really one you think you are but they do not work....the ones that seem to work okay only work because of the layers of government between them and the natural world. In all cases---each and every one... a government...a control system WILL emerge. Even in the most social nature examples (ants or bees or termites), there is always ones in power and many workers.


and i am not even going to get into it... as we will never convince each other... I wish it could happen...but it can't

"I was raped by the Arkansas AG who then becomes Governor & President..." Juanita Broaddrick
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #5 posted 09/29/17 8:43pm

PurpleJedi

avatar

So, you're honestly going to randomly pick some name out of a hat to govern?

I know too many people who can't balance their own checkbook or set their DVR's...but you're going to entrust your town/county/state/country's rule to them????

No thanks. hmph!

By St. Boogar and all the saints at the backside door of Purgatory!
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #6 posted 10/05/17 9:52am

PeteSilas

i wouldn't call myself an anarchist but i definitely live on the fringes of society, i won't say a lot about it because it's not really anyones' business but, i see people as cowards, wimps, weak people who can't solve the simplest problems left to their own devices. as one guy said, i use the roads, i drink city water, so i'm not totally free. but there are people out there who really are in the us, i have relatives, they are a dying breed but have had some who live completely off the land, indians in alaska and I have heard that people do leave society and live off the grid. Personally, i think i could live without a lot of the crap that we are told we need, no wife, no kids, no women in my life, don't need em, cut friends out of my life so i don't lose time and start thinking about the crap that they do like bills and money, which is all they talk about. I would think i need electricity and i do enjoy the internet and so on but a lot of the stuff people think they need, the house, the yard, the cars, i could do without. Most of those people are miserable because someone told them they needed those things.

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #7 posted 10/05/17 10:17am

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

anarchists only like anarchy when they are well insulated with government.... it is they expect to be protected and looked after when it suits them, they expect to use roads and other services when they need it... and someone always takes over. Someone will fill the void. but do not try telling them that.


Think of a circle with a small circle in the middle... the small circle is where the anarchists are... the rest is government... it is like a donut... there can be no hole without the ring of bread.

it is what I would call status quo (or maybe the statist quo) fallacy... it only works in small pockets and only if all other things are the same. *

*another example of the status quo fallacy is when my area voted to sell beer and wine. Their argument was other nearby cities that sold beer and wine made $X in tax revenue. They argued that our town would make just as much. NOPE: some of the nearby town's revenue was from people from other towns. So our town would not make as much and the other town would make less. That is the status quo fallacy of all other things being the same.

[Edited 10/5/17 10:18am]

"I was raped by the Arkansas AG who then becomes Governor & President..." Juanita Broaddrick
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #8 posted 10/05/17 10:47am

gimmesomehornz

I don't mean to apologize for democracy but how, in your opinion, would this lottery winner know "the bidding of what citizens actually want" without some kind of election?

And how would you deal with conflicts, say if 51% of the population wants something that totally contradicts what 49% want?

It's okay to be white.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #9 posted 10/05/17 11:32am

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

gimmesomehornz said:

I don't mean to apologize for democracy but how, in your opinion, would this lottery winner know "the bidding of what citizens actually want" without some kind of election?

And how would you deal with conflicts, say if 51% of the population wants something that totally contradicts what 49% want?

that is why such communities always fail even B F Skinner knew this when he wrote "Walden Two"

"I was raped by the Arkansas AG who then becomes Governor & President..." Juanita Broaddrick
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #10 posted 10/05/17 4:56pm

gimmesomehornz

OnlyNDaUsa said:

that is why such communities always fail even B F Skinner knew this when he wrote "Walden Two"

I'd say communities need to be based on the principal of Do No Harm rather than Majority Rule.

It's okay to be white.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #11 posted 10/05/17 5:05pm

PeteSilas

people are too fucked up to do anything without a huge stick over their heads, look how people drive, can't even do that without causing mayhem and doing stupid, selfish, dangerous shit. With no lights and no cops to stop people it would be complete chaos, everyone thinks they are smarter and righter than everyone else, people cannot work together that way.

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #12 posted 10/05/17 5:38pm

gimmesomehornz

PeteSilas said:

people are too fucked up to do anything without a huge stick over their heads,

Fucked up by an agenda, I'd argue. The true "huge stick" is the natural consequence of their actions. Any government intervension is redundant.

It's okay to be white.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #13 posted 10/05/17 5:45pm

PeteSilas

gimmesomehornz said:

PeteSilas said:

people are too fucked up to do anything without a huge stick over their heads,

Fucked up by an agenda, I'd argue. The true "huge stick" is the natural consequence of their actions. Any government intervension is redundant.

you won't get any arguement from me, i know why we're so combative with each other but no one person is gonna change that. My answer is to detach from it all, the sooner i can get away from society the better, you know, life is fucking good, too good to waste the way most people do. as far as anarchists and revolutionaries, i really don't see anything like that on the near horizon, people are too coddled, they like their cell phones and petty joys too much to fight, plus they don't have the balls, everyone talks a good game but not enough are willing to sacrifice their lives for what they believe in, which is crazy because they'll go fight stupid bullshit wars without a second thought for this country.
Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #14 posted 10/09/17 7:37pm

PurpleJedi

avatar

gimmesomehornz said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

that is why such communities always fail even B F Skinner knew this when he wrote "Walden Two"

I'd say communities need to be based on the principal of Do No Harm rather than Majority Rule.


However the reality is that OPINIONS cloud the issue as to what is harm and what is not.

Is spanking "harm"? Feeding your child processed sugars? Letting them watch TV all day?

Just look at abortion. How do you implement "do no harm" to something like that?

By St. Boogar and all the saints at the backside door of Purgatory!
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #15 posted 10/09/17 7:46pm

PurpleJedi

avatar

PeteSilas said:

gimmesomehornz said:

Fucked up by an agenda, I'd argue. The true "huge stick" is the natural consequence of their actions. Any government intervension is redundant.

you won't get any arguement from me, i know why we're so combative with each other but no one person is gonna change that. My answer is to detach from it all, the sooner i can get away from society the better, you know, life is fucking good, too good to waste the way most people do. as far as anarchists and revolutionaries, i really don't see anything like that on the near horizon, people are too coddled, they like their cell phones and petty joys too much to fight, plus they don't have the balls, everyone talks a good game but not enough are willing to sacrifice their lives for what they believe in, which is crazy because they'll go fight stupid bullshit wars without a second thought for this country.


I think that you're missing out on alot then.

Life isn't about rainbows and waterfalls. Life has its ups and its downs. Its skyscrapers and its ghettos.

The solitude of the open range in Wyoming has its beauty just as much as streets of Manhattan.

As for the rest of your post about fighting and dying...not sure what you're getting at. Are you asking if people are willing to die for rhetoric? For politics? For religion? Not alot of people will give up their lives for ideals, but that's because usually you have more important things to protect like a family or loved ones. Most people will definitely take a bullet for their kids or spouse. Will I take a bullet to protect Exxon's interests in the Middle East? Hell no.

By St. Boogar and all the saints at the backside door of Purgatory!
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #16 posted 10/09/17 9:31pm

PeteSilas

i've lived in the city my whole life, it's no place for me, manhattan, or rather, new york was what ray charles called "wholesale craziness" some people like that, some people like bickering their whole lives at jobs and backstabbing or whatever it is that most people try to call work. that's cool for them, not me. I'm already an old man and it's time to get ready for old age. will people take bullets for loved ones? I don't know, some would some wouldn't but most don't even look out for the sociological bullets that hurt their loved ones so i'm not convinced. And since i don't know you, i can't tell if you would let yourself be drafted or not if it came down to it, but most people would just do what their told, still amazes me how they find people willing to go do all their dirty work for them, there are no rationalizations for that, that's what i mean, people will let a few dollars totally corrupt them. all i can say about thtat is, that i don't and it's hard being the only one who stands up for oneself, real hard. would i fight the system if it came down to it? sure, if I'm not to old when people wake the fuck up.

y rpleJedi said:

PeteSilas said:

you won't get any arguement from me, i know why we're so combative with each other but no one person is gonna change that. My answer is to detach from it all, the sooner i can get away from society the better, you know, life is fucking good, too good to waste the way most people do. as far as anarchists and revolutionaries, i really don't see anything like that on the near horizon, people are too coddled, they like their cell phones and petty joys too much to fight, plus they don't have the balls, everyone talks a good game but not enough are willing to sacrifice their lives for what they believe in, which is crazy because they'll go fight stupid bullshit wars without a second thought for this country.


I think that you're missing out on alot then.

Life isn't about rainbows and waterfalls. Life has its ups and its downs. Its skyscrapers and its ghettos.

The solitude of the open range in Wyoming has its beauty just as much as streets of Manhattan.

As for the rest of your post about fighting and dying...not sure what you're getting at. Are you asking if people are willing to die for rhetoric? For politics? For religion? Not alot of people will give up their lives for ideals, but that's because usually you have more important things to protect like a family or loved ones. Most people will definitely take a bullet for their kids or spouse. Will I take a bullet to protect Exxon's interests in the Middle East? Hell no.

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #17 posted 10/10/17 4:12am

SuperFurryAnim
al

avatar

2freaky did you have a change of heart about socialism, Bernie Sanders, big gov?

You better Watch Out! I'm a WAR MACHINE!
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #18 posted 10/10/17 6:58am

RodeoSchro

avatar

OnlyNDaUsa said:

TrivialPursuit are you are an Anarchist? I frankly doubt any exist. I tend to believe they are not really taking into account all that is needed for a society to do well. Like roads... I know one guy that is opposed to the government making any roads... but he sure spends a lot of time driving on them! (and refuses to accept that his 30-minute drive to town on a government built road would take all day if not for said road)


and there is the time he had a crash and the cops had to come help him out...

and how he howls about rights when things do not go his way!





I know, right?!? That reminds me of people that continually scream "Support the troops!" but then scream "You can't take my guns!" because they're afraid those same troops are going to make them into sex slaves or something.

Second Funkiest White Man in America

P&R's paladin
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #19 posted 10/10/17 7:41am

2freaky4church
1

avatar

OF4S, we need to talk.

--------

We need government to dismantle corporate power, which is the major power behind the State.

As Chomsky says a real Anarchist is some kind of socialist.

DJ is da man
"2freaky is very down." 2Elijah.
"2freaky convinced me to join Antifa: OnlyNDA
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
  New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Forums > Politics & Religion > Why do we need elections? Why do we need politicians?