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Thread started 09/26/17 9:34am

2freaky4church
1

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Hamza Yusuf calls out Atheists.

Tell em my brother:

"2freaky is a complete stud." DJ
"2freaky is very down." 2Elijah.
"2freaky convinced me to join Antifa: OnlyNDA
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Reply #1 posted 09/27/17 12:04am

hausofmoi7

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There are some great lectures, speeches from Zaytuna College online.
He really took down the atheist argument.
Science and God are not contradictions, both are true at the same time.



.
[Edited 9/27/17 0:29am]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #2 posted 09/27/17 7:09am

Dasein

hausofmoi7 said:

There are some great lectures, speeches from Zaytuna College online. He really took down the atheist argument. Science and God are not contradictions, both are true at the same time. . [Edited 9/27/17 0:29am]


Can you point out the section(s) of the videos where Yusuf really takes "down the atheist argu-
ment"? I watched the first video and I thought his arguments were weak!

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Reply #3 posted 09/27/17 7:42am

2freaky4church
1

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Fox news logic. How were they weak? Spell it out will ya??

"2freaky is a complete stud." DJ
"2freaky is very down." 2Elijah.
"2freaky convinced me to join Antifa: OnlyNDA
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Reply #4 posted 09/27/17 8:59am

paisleypark4

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Yes.

Conciousness is inmaterial. An athiest cannot explain such a thing. no science can explain why we have conciousness to have feelings, dreams and grandiouse talents to our nature. SOMETHING doesnt come from NOTHING.

If anything people who rather not think about that, bore me.

[Edited 9/27/17 8:59am]

Download all the shit hop that you can for your kids, neices, nephews, and their friends also. That will prevent them from going out and buying it and will prevent some shit hop sales. Every little bit helps - Andy
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemus
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Reply #5 posted 09/27/17 9:01am

Dasein

In the first video, Yusuf sets up his argument anecdotally by referencing his kid's biology teacher's
claim that science can explain biological life without the inclusion of a god. Yusuf criticizes the bio-
logy teacher for transcending his wheelhouse by making a cosmological claim when he ought to
remain within the realm of biology. Yet, biology does make enough room to offer an explanation a-
bout how life functions and operates naturally. There is no need for us to talk about a god's super-
natural activity when describing the processes responsible for the existence of living organisms. Yu-
suf then says that a biologist should stay in biology and leave cosmological claims for cosmologists.
I hope you see the fallacy in this line of thinking . . .

Yusuf follows this up by giving us a joke about a biologist telling God we can explain the origins of
the universe by pointing to the existence of cosmic dust. In the joke, God tells the biologist to "get
your own dust." Yusuf then says even if evolution does explain how our species evolved, it doesn't
have an explanation for where the "original material came from." Two things: a quick rebuttal of the
God joke would be to ask God, "Okay, so if we get cosmic dust from you, where did you come from?"
This would be perfectly aligned with the line of reasoning (i.e., the first cause argument) for the joke's
premise. Also, it is important to note here that evolutionary biologists do not make cosmological
claims; they try to explain, mostly, how and why life on Earth is varied.

Yusuf says that because humankind cannot make something from nothing (because nothing comes
from nothing), then atheists are liars. What Yusuf is implying is that only a god can make something
from nothing: this is the main thrust of his argument. Yet, what does that even mean? - "to make
something from nothing" or that "nothing begets nothing"? These aren't particularly meaningful
questions to ask as they highlight the inherent difficulties of language. When some cosmologists, like
Hawking or Harkle, posit a "universe from nothing," what they really mean is that prior to the Big
Bang, there was no prior thing or stuff to begin with. Here, Yusuf is simply inserting a god into our
current lack of understanding and/or knowledge. There were a host of questions humans have asked
about the creation and workings of the world with answers that reflected our lack of understanding
where we simply used God as placeholder until we discovered and began to understand physical laws.
However, as our knowledge of the universe increases, the role that a god plays in it diminishes.

Finally, if Yusuf himself is not a cosmologist, then why should we pay him any attention on how
something came from nothing apart from his shoehorning of God? Let science continue to tell us how
the universe was formed as it has nothing to do with why it was formed.



[Edited 9/27/17 9:43am]

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Reply #6 posted 09/27/17 9:07am

Dasein

paisleypark4 said:

Yes.

Conciousness is inmaterial. An athiest cannot explain such a thing. no science can explain why we have conciousness to have feelings, dreams and grandiouse talents to our nature. SOMETHING doesnt come from NOTHING.

If anything people who rather not think about that, bore me.

[Edited 9/27/17 8:59am]


Take this argument and apply it to theism: so, where did God come from if something doesn't come
from nothing? If God exists independent of nothing and/or something, then obviously that would be
an example of something coming from nothing.

Theists who do not think about that bore me!


wink

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Reply #7 posted 09/27/17 11:44am

2freaky4church
1

avatar

What created matter? It created itself the atheist says. The big bang just happened and all seemed to work out perfect. Talk about a cosmic roll of the dice no sane person would bet.

There's also the point we make, when you see beauty in the world where does that come from? What makes us respond to a song or a painting? What makes us love someone else? Is a kiss mere biology? Two lips touching. It seems to mean more, or we would see it as just an exchange of germs.

The earth is just perfectly close enough to the sun. Life evolved perfectly where humans came to be. Odd how all the plants seem to cure what ails us. How did that happen? Aloe deals with burns, Poppys get us high, ward off pain. Wheat feeds us, makes bread, the communal edible. Soil grows these things perfectly. The right chemical makeup is there. Mountains and rivers and seas grew in perfectly lovely ways. For our eyes and dare I say it, our souls.

How do you know what is moral without a moral guide? Does that not mean all is acceptable. Who says? Why not rape, why not steal or kill? Who cares if I kick a dog or slap a child. Someone dies, just replace them with another. The Fiend has the same soap box as the saint. Hitler wasn't evil just a tough manager of a country. The Jews got in the way.

War is just, war is unjust, who cares? The Universe is empty and has no say. Bah.

"2freaky is a complete stud." DJ
"2freaky is very down." 2Elijah.
"2freaky convinced me to join Antifa: OnlyNDA
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Reply #8 posted 09/27/17 11:45am

IanRG

Dasein said:

In the first video, Yusuf sets up his argument anecdotally by referencing his kid's biology teacher's
claim that science can explain biological life without the inclusion of a god. Yusuf criticizes the bio-
logy teacher for transcending his wheelhouse by making a cosmological claim when he ought to
remain within the realm of biology. Yet, biology does make enough room to offer an explanation a-
bout how life functions and operates naturally. There is no need for us to talk about a god's super-
natural activity when describing the processes responsible for the existence of living organisms. Yu-
suf then says that a biologist should stay in biology and leave cosmological claims for cosmologists.
I hope you see the fallacy in this line of thinking . . .

.

Constructing a strawman argument to create a fallacy in a line of thinking does mean you have proved the what the person actually said is weak argument. The weakness you are discussing is the weakness you put there in your strawman argument.

.

The video was not arguing that biology cannot offer an explanation about how life functions and operates. This is a major part of what biology studies. The point being made in the video about the difference between cosmology and biology is that the teacher was making the leap that merely because an explanation for how biological things function, operate and exist can be framed without reference to God, then God must not be the cause of our existence. I hope you see the fallacy in this line of reasoning...

.

It is the same fallacy atheists so often fall for: the God in the cracks fallacy - God only exists in the things we think are supernatural because we cannot find a cosmological explanation for it without attributing it to God.

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Reply #9 posted 09/27/17 11:47am

2freaky4church
1

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Ian, Scott Atran mentions this: In a study about different groups, Atheist make more strawman arguements than Muslims. haha. True.

"2freaky is a complete stud." DJ
"2freaky is very down." 2Elijah.
"2freaky convinced me to join Antifa: OnlyNDA
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Reply #10 posted 09/27/17 11:56am

IanRG

Dasein said:

paisleypark4 said:

Yes.

Conciousness is inmaterial. An athiest cannot explain such a thing. no science can explain why we have conciousness to have feelings, dreams and grandiouse talents to our nature. SOMETHING doesnt come from NOTHING.

If anything people who rather not think about that, bore me.

[Edited 9/27/17 8:59am]


Take this argument and apply it to theism: so, where did God come from if something doesn't come
from nothing? If God exists independent of nothing and/or something, then obviously that would be
an example of something coming from nothing.

Theists who do not think about that bore me!


wink

.

You have done theology and you know that this is a specious argument with no more validity than the old medieval word play tricks like how many angels can fit on a pin head. Instead of being bored by unrelated questions, you could answer the one asked - where does conciousness (a SOMETHING) come from in things that had no conciousness (where no conciousness is a NOTHING and the chemicals, bits etc. that make up humans have no part that can be considered the conciousness)?

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Reply #11 posted 09/27/17 1:45pm

Silvertongue7

2freaky4church1 said:

What created matter? It created itself the atheist says. The big bang just happened and all seemed to work out perfect. Talk about a cosmic roll of the dice no sane person would bet.

There's also the point we make, when you see beauty in the world where does that come from? What makes us respond to a song or a painting? What makes us love someone else? Is a kiss mere biology? Two lips touching. It seems to mean more, or we would see it as just an exchange of germs.

The earth is just perfectly close enough to the sun. Life evolved perfectly where humans came to be. Odd how all the plants seem to cure what ails us. How did that happen? Aloe deals with burns, Poppys get us high, ward off pain. Wheat feeds us, makes bread, the communal edible. Soil grows these things perfectly. The right chemical makeup is there. Mountains and rivers and seas grew in perfectly lovely ways. For our eyes and dare I say it, our souls.

How do you know what is moral without a moral guide? Does that not mean all is acceptable. Who says? Why not rape, why not steal or kill? Who cares if I kick a dog or slap a child. Someone dies, just replace them with another. The Fiend has the same soap box as the saint. Hitler wasn't evil just a tough manager of a country. The Jews got in the way.

War is just, war is unjust, who cares? The Universe is empty and has no say. Bah.

What makes you think that atheists don't have a moral guide?

Someone's in my body, someone's in my body...
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Reply #12 posted 09/27/17 2:02pm

2freaky4church
1

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They do--Holy Ghost.

"2freaky is a complete stud." DJ
"2freaky is very down." 2Elijah.
"2freaky convinced me to join Antifa: OnlyNDA
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Reply #13 posted 09/27/17 2:12pm

Silvertongue7

2freaky4church1 said:

They do--Holy Ghost.


How do I make you think that I don’t have a moral guide?
Someone's in my body, someone's in my body...
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Reply #14 posted 09/27/17 2:16pm

2freaky4church
1

avatar

Matters what you believe. Was Vietnam immoral?

"2freaky is a complete stud." DJ
"2freaky is very down." 2Elijah.
"2freaky convinced me to join Antifa: OnlyNDA
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Reply #15 posted 09/27/17 2:22pm

Silvertongue7

2freaky4church1 said:

Matters what you believe. Was Vietnam immoral?


I am not changing the topic.
I am an atheist. Am I immoral? And if you think so, why?
I do not kill, I do not rape, I do not steal, I not not kick dogs or slap children. I do not replace people who die with others. I do not think that Hitler was a manager of a country. I do not think that the Jews got on the way. I do care about the war. So can you please explain to me why you think that I don’t have a moral guide?
Also, is your fear of God the only thing that stops you from doing all of those things?
Someone's in my body, someone's in my body...
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Reply #16 posted 09/27/17 2:56pm

Dasein

IanRG said:

Dasein said:

In the first video, Yusuf sets up his argument anecdotally by referencing his kid's biology teacher's
claim that science can explain biological life without the inclusion of a god. Yusuf criticizes the bio-
logy teacher for transcending his wheelhouse by making a cosmological claim when he ought to
remain within the realm of biology. Yet, biology does make enough room to offer an explanation a-
bout how life functions and operates naturally. There is no need for us to talk about a god's super-
natural activity when describing the processes responsible for the existence of living organisms. Yu-
suf then says that a biologist should stay in biology and leave cosmological claims for cosmologists.
I hope you see the fallacy in this line of thinking . . .

.

Constructing a strawman argument to create a fallacy in a line of thinking does mean you have proved the what the person actually said is weak argument. The weakness you are discussing is the weakness you put there in your strawman argument.

.

The video was not arguing that biology cannot offer an explanation about how life functions and operates. This is a major part of what biology studies. The point being made in the video about the difference between cosmology and biology is that the teacher was making the leap that merely because an explanation for how biological things function, operate and exist can be framed without reference to God, then God must not be the cause of our existence. I hope you see the fallacy in this line of reasoning...

.

It is the same fallacy atheists so often fall for: the God in the cracks fallacy - God only exists in the things we think are supernatural because we cannot find a cosmological explanation for it without attributing it to God.


There is no strawman argument here as maybe you didn't understand how I nuanced my reply? Yu-
suf says that the biologist shouldn't make cosmological claims. Well, a biologist doesn't make
cosmological claims; she makes biological ones, and biological claims do not need the inclusion of a
supernatural entity in order to rationally explain the natural processes it investigates. So, when Yu-
suf's kid's biology teacher says that in biology, "we can explain life without God", we can do just that!
In other words: saying we can explain life without God within the context of biology is not a cosmo-
logical claim; it is a biological one, and it is provable; there is evidence to support the claim.

Now, if Yusuf's kid's teacher said: "We can explain the existence of the universe (its beginning too)
without the aid of God," then his criticism that a biologist is working outside of his/her wheelhouse
would be more justified. The "god in the cracks fallacy" piece you mentioned makes perfect sense to
me even though I didn't quite grasp the clause after the word "because": God can only exist
within the realm of the supernatural if God is indeed supernatural because if God was detected
naturally then obviously that God is not wholly supernatural in transcending or reaching into that
particular realm. For, how do you detect, observe, and measure "supernatural"? What instru-
ment is available for such things which would allow you to speak rationally about them? And, what
are the things we "think are supernatural"? What does that even mean? Apart from God, what else
do we think is supernatural?

Some of my favorite cosmologists and physicists are Christians: Freeman Dyson and Russell and the
South African dude whose name slips my mind . . . Quaker . . . Fuck. Ellis! If you want articles, send
me a PM.


[Edited 9/27/17 15:01pm]

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Reply #17 posted 09/27/17 3:15pm

Dasein

IanRG said:

Dasein said:


Take this argument and apply it to theism: so, where did God come from if something doesn't come
from nothing? If God exists independent of nothing and/or something, then obviously that would be
an example of something coming from nothing.

Theists who do not think about that bore me!


wink

.

You have done theology and you know that this is a specious argument with no more validity than the old medieval word play tricks like how many angels can fit on a pin head. Instead of being bored by unrelated questions, you could answer the one asked - where does conciousness (a SOMETHING) come from in things that had no conciousness (where no conciousness is a NOTHING and the chemicals, bits etc. that make up humans have no part that can be considered the conciousness)?


My response was not specious: if God is a something that came from nothing, then obviously some-
thing can come from nothing. So, if God can come from nothing, then why couldn't this particular uni-
verse come from nothing too? There is no word play trick here - I'm just asking Paisley to apply his/
her argument to theism.

You can ask me all kinds of questions about where other abstractions come from: our conception and/
or understanding of love, justice, consciousness, soul, mind. And, even if we don't fully understand
where these ideas came from, it doesn't mean that we must then attribute their humanly existence to
a God. This is because at this very moment, there is no such thing as objective Love, Justice, Con-
sciousness, Soul, or Mind as concrete things existing naturally within the universe and independent of
human abstraction. To answer your question: I have no idea where the idea of consciousness came
from because I have no idea what a consciousness is!

What Paisley was doing was invoking God for our current lack of understanding. But, the history of
science asks that if this is the case, that if we simply invoke God for where we do not have compre-
hension at the moment, then isn't God just an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance? At some
point, even some features of Newton's architectonic God was explained away!


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Reply #18 posted 09/27/17 3:43pm

Dasein

Ptolemy writes in the Almagest, one of the first influential texts of astronomy, due to its sturdy scientific
understanding, the following:

"I know that I am mortal by nature and ephemeral, but when I trace at my pleasure the windings to
and fro of the heavenly bodies, I no longer touch earth with my feet. I stand in the presence of Zeus
himself and take my fill of ambrosia."

. . . and would probably lose his devotion to Zeus had he access to the contemporary cosmology and
astrophysics/astronomy.

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Reply #19 posted 09/27/17 4:35pm

2freaky4church
1

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Dasein, what about love?

"2freaky is a complete stud." DJ
"2freaky is very down." 2Elijah.
"2freaky convinced me to join Antifa: OnlyNDA
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Reply #20 posted 09/27/17 5:00pm

morningsong

avatar

Dasein said:

Ptolemy writes in the Almagest, one of the first influential texts of astronomy, due to its sturdy scientific
understanding, the following:

"I know that I am mortal by nature and ephemeral, but when I trace at my pleasure the windings to
and fro of the heavenly bodies, I no longer touch earth with my feet. I stand in the presence of Zeus
himself and take my fill of ambrosia."

. . . and would probably lose his devotion to Zeus had he access to the contemporary cosmology and
astrophysics/astronomy.



All alive today. All profess "some" religious leanings. I say "some" because I don't know these people and can't say their depths of devotion. But still, they all have today's indepth knowledge of how things work and yet they are still in wonder of the supernatural.

Physics and Astronomy

  • Freeman Dyson (born 1923): is an English-born American theoretical physicist and mathematician, known for his work in quantum electrodynamics, solid-state physics, astronomy and nuclear engineering.
  • Stephen Barr (born 1953): physicist who worked at Brookhaven National Laboratory and contributed papers to Physical Review as well as Physics Today. He also is a Catholic who writes for First Things and wrote Modern Physics and Ancient Faith. He teaches at the University of Delaware.[232]
  • John D. Barrow (born 1952): English cosmologist who did notable writing on the implications of the Anthropic principle. He is a United Reformed Church member and Christian deist. He won the Templeton Prize in 2006. He once held the position of Gresham Professor of Astronomy.[233][234]
  • Gerald B. Cleaver: professor in the Department of Physics at Baylor University and head of the Early Universe Cosmology and Strings (EUCOS) division of Baylor's Center for Astrophysics, Space Physics & Engineering Research (CASPER). His research specialty is string phenomenology and string model building. He is linked to BioLogos and among his lectures are ""Faith and the New Cosmology."[235][236]
  • Guy Consolmagno (born 1952): American Jesuit astronomer who works at the Vatican Observatory.
  • George Coyne (born 1933): Jesuit astronomer and former director of the Vatican Observatory.
  • Manuel García Doncel (born 1930): Spanish Jesuit physicist, formerly Professor of Physics at Universidad de Barcelona.
  • George Francis Rayner Ellis (born 1939): professor of Complex Systems in the Department of Mathematics and Applied Mathematics at the University of Cape Town in South Africa. He co-authored The Large Scale Structure of Space-Time with University of Cambridge physicist Stephen Hawking, published in 1973, and is considered one of the world's leading theorists in cosmology. He is an active Quaker and in 2004 he won the Templeton Prize.
  • Pamela L. Gay (born 1973): American astronomer, educator and writer, best known for her work in astronomical podcasting. Doctor Gay received her PhD from the University of Texas, Austin, in 2002.[237] Her position as both a skeptic and Christian has been noted upon.[238]
  • Fabiola Gianotti (born October 1960) is an Italian particle physicist and the Director-General of the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN). Her mandate began on 1 January 2016 and runs for a period of five years. She is the first woman to hold the position of CERN Director-General.[239]
  • Karl W. Giberson (born 1957): Canadian physicist and evangelical, formerly a physics professor at Eastern Nazarene College in Massachusetts, Dr Giberson is a prolific author specializing in the creation-evolution debate and who formerly served as vice president of the BioLogos Foundation.[240] He has published several books on the relationship between science and religion, such as The Language of Science and Faith: Straight Answers to Genuine Questions and Saving Darwin: How to be a Christian and Believe in Evolution.
  • Owen Gingerich (born 1930): Mennonite astronomer who went to Goshen College and Harvard. Mr. Gingerich has written about people of faith in science history.[241][242]
  • J. Richard Gott (born 1947): professor of astrophysical sciences at Princeton University. He is known for developing and advocating two cosmological theories with the flavor of science fiction: Time travel and the Doomsday argument. When asked of his religious views in relation to his science, Gott responded that "I’m a Presbyterian. I believe in God; I always thought that was the humble position to take. I like what Einstein said: "God is subtle but not malicious." I think if you want to know how the universe started, that's a legitimate question for physics. But if you want to know why it's here, then you may have to know—to borrow Stephen Hawking's phrase—the mind of God."[243]
  • Robert Griffiths (born 1937): noted American physicist at Carnegie Mellon University. He has written on matters of science and religion.[244]
  • Peter Grünberg (born 1939) is a German physicist, and Nobel Prize in Physics laureate for his discovery with Albert Fert of giant magnetoresistance which brought about a breakthrough in gigabyte hard disk drives[245]
  • John Hartnett (born 1952): Australian Young Earth Creationist who has a PhD and whose research interests include ultra low-noise radar and ultra high stability cryogenic microwave oscillators.[246][247][248]
  • Michał Heller (born 1936): Catholic priest, a member of the Pontifical Academy of Theology, a founding member of the International Society for Science and Religion. He also is a mathematical physicist who has written articles on relativistic physics and Noncommutative geometry. His cross-disciplinary book Creative Tension: Essays on Science and Religion came out in 2003. For this work he won a Templeton Prize. [note 6][249]
  • Antony Hewish (born 1924): British Radio Astronomer who won the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1974 (together with Martin Ryle) for his work on the development of radio aperture synthesis and its role in the discovery of pulsars. He was also awarded the Eddington Medal of the Royal Astronomical Society in 1969. Hewish is a Christian.[250] Hewish also wrote in his introduction to John Polkinghorne's 2009 Questions of Truth, "The ghostly presence of virtual particles defies rational common sense and is non-intuitive for those unacquainted with physics. Religious belief in God, and Christian belief ... may seem strange to common-sense thinking. But when the most elementary physical things behave in this way, we should be prepared to accept that the deepest aspects of our existence go beyond our common-sense understanding."[251]
  • Colin Humphreys (born 1941): British physicist. He is the former Goldsmiths’ Professor of Materials Science and a current Director of Research at Cambridge University, Professor of Experimental Physics at the Royal Institution in London and a Fellow of Selwyn College, Cambridge. Humphreys also "studies the Bible when not pursuing his day-job as a materials scientist."[252]
  • Ian Hutchinson (scientist), physicist and nuclear engineer. He is currently Professor of Nuclear Science and Engineering at the Plasma Science and Fusion Center, Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
  • Christopher Isham (born 1944): theoretical physicist who developed HPO formalism. He teaches at Imperial College London. In addition to being a physicist, he is a philosopher and theologian.[253][254]
  • Ard Louis: Professor in Theoretical Physics at the University of Oxford. Prior to his post at Oxford he taught Theoretical Chemistry at Cambridge University where he was also director of studies in Natural Sciences at Hughes Hall. He has written for The BioLogos Forum.[255]
  • Juan Maldacena (born 1968): Argentine theoretical physicist and string theorist, best known for the most reliable realization of the holographic principle - the AdS/CFT correspondence.[256]
  • Stephen C. Meyer (born 1958): physicist and earth science. Meyers wrote Signature in the Cell and Darwin's Doubt. Worked as a geophysicist for the Atlantic Richfield Company. Meyer earned his Ph.D. in history and philosophy of science in 1991. Director of the Center for Science and Culture at the Discovery Institute and Vice President and Senior Fellow at the DI.[257]
  • Don Page (born 1948):[258] Canadian theoretical physicist and practicing Evangelical Christian, Dr. Page is known for having published several journal articles with Stephen Hawking.[259][260]
  • William Daniel Phillips (born 1948): 1997 Nobel laureate in Physics (1997) who is a founding member of The International Society for Science and Religion.[261]
  • Andrew Pinsent (born 1966): Catholic priest, is the Research Director of the Ian Ramsey Centre for Science and Religion at Oxford University.[262] He is also a particle physicist, whose previous work contributed to the DELPHI experiment at CERN.[263]
  • John Polkinghorne (born 1930): British particle physicist and Anglican priest who wrote Science and the Trinity (2004) ISBN 0-300-10445-6. Winner of the 2002 Templeton Prize.[264]
  • Joel Primack (born 1945): American astrophysicist. A University of California, Santa Cruz, professor, he co-developed the cold dark matter theory that seeks to explain the formation and structure of the universe. Primack has written, "In the last few years astronomy has come together so that we're now able to tell a coherent story" of how the universe began. This story does not contradict God, but instead enlarges [the idea of] God."[265]
  • Hugh Ross (born 1945): Canadian astrophysicist, Christian apologist, and old Earth creationist whose postdoctoral research at Caltech was in studying quasars and galaxies.
  • Russell Stannard (born 1931): British particle physicist who has written several books on the relationship between religion and science, such as Science and the Renewal of Belief, Grounds for Reasonable Belief and Doing Away With God?.[266]
  • Walter Thirring (born 1927): Austrian physicist after whom the Thirring model in quantum field theory is named. He is the son of the physicist Hans Thirring, co-discoverer of the Lense-Thirring frame dragging effect in general relativity. He also wrote Cosmic Impressions: Traces of God in the Laws of Nature.[267]
  • Frank J. Tipler (born 1947): mathematical physicist and cosmologist, holding a joint appointment in the Departments of Mathematics and Physics at Tulane University. Tipler has authored books and papers on the Omega Point, which he claims is a mechanism for the resurrection of the dead. His theological and scientific theorizing are not without controversy, but he has some supporters; for instance, Christian theologian Wolfhart Pannenberg has defended his theology,[268] and physicist David Deutsch has incorporated Tipler's idea of an Omega Point.[269]
  • Jennifer Wiseman: Chief of the Laboratory for Exoplanets and Stellar Astrophysics at NASA Goddard Space Flight Center. An aerial of the Center is shown. In addition she is a co-discoverer of 114P/Wiseman-Skiff. In religion is a Fellow of the American Scientific Affiliation and on June 16, 2010 became the new director for the American Association for the Advancement of Science's Dialogue on Science, Ethics, and Religion.[270]
  • Antonino Zichichi (born 1929): Italian nuclear physicist and former President of the Istituto Nazionale di Fisica Nucleare. He has worked with the Vatican on relations between the Church and Science.[271][272]
“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
― T.S. Eliot

“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
― T.S. Eliot
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Reply #21 posted 09/27/17 5:21pm

Dasein

morningsong said:

Dasein said:

Ptolemy writes in the Almagest, one of the first influential texts of astronomy, due to its sturdy scientific
understanding, the following:

"I know that I am mortal by nature and ephemeral, but when I trace at my pleasure the windings to
and fro of the heavenly bodies, I no longer touch earth with my feet. I stand in the presence of Zeus
himself and take my fill of ambrosia."

. . . and would probably lose his devotion to Zeus had he access to the contemporary cosmology and
astrophysics/astronomy.



All alive today. All profess "some" religious leanings. I say "some" because I don't know these people and can't say their depths of devotion. But still, they all have today's indepth knowledge of how things work and yet they are still in wonder of the supernatural.

Physics and Astronomy

  • Freeman Dyson (born 1923): is an English-born American theoretical physicist and mathematician, known for his work in quantum electrodynamics, solid-state physics, astronomy and nuclear engineering.
  • Stephen Barr (born 1953): physicist who worked at Brookhaven National Laboratory and contributed papers to Physical Review as well as Physics Today. He also is a Catholic who writes for First Things and wrote Modern Physics and Ancient Faith. He teaches at the University of Delaware.[232]
  • John D. Barrow (born 1952): English cosmologist who did notable writing on the implications of the Anthropic principle. He is a United Reformed Church member and Christian deist. He won the Templeton Prize in 2006. He once held the position of Gresham Professor of Astronomy.[233][234]
  • Gerald B. Cleaver: professor in the Department of Physics at Baylor University and head of the Early Universe Cosmology and Strings (EUCOS) division of Baylor's Center for Astrophysics, Space Physics & Engineering Research (CASPER). His research specialty is string phenomenology and string model building. He is linked to BioLogos and among his lectures are ""Faith and the New Cosmology."[235][236]
  • Guy Consolmagno (born 1952): American Jesuit astronomer who works at the Vatican Observatory.
  • George Coyne (born 1933): Jesuit astronomer and former director of the Vatican Observatory.
  • Manuel García Doncel (born 1930): Spanish Jesuit physicist, formerly Professor of Physics at Universidad de Barcelona.
  • George Francis Rayner Ellis (born 1939): professor of Complex Systems in the Department of Mathematics and Applied Mathematics at the University of Cape Town in South Africa. He co-authored The Large Scale Structure of Space-Time with University of Cambridge physicist Stephen Hawking, published in 1973, and is considered one of the world's leading theorists in cosmology. He is an active Quaker and in 2004 he won the Templeton Prize.
  • Pamela L. Gay (born 1973): American astronomer, educator and writer, best known for her work in astronomical podcasting. Doctor Gay received her PhD from the University of Texas, Austin, in 2002.[237] Her position as both a skeptic and Christian has been noted upon.[238]
  • Fabiola Gianotti (born October 1960) is an Italian particle physicist and the Director-General of the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN). Her mandate began on 1 January 2016 and runs for a period of five years. She is the first woman to hold the position of CERN Director-General.[239]
  • Karl W. Giberson (born 1957): Canadian physicist and evangelical, formerly a physics professor at Eastern Nazarene College in Massachusetts, Dr Giberson is a prolific author specializing in the creation-evolution debate and who formerly served as vice president of the BioLogos Foundation.[240] He has published several books on the relationship between science and religion, such as The Language of Science and Faith: Straight Answers to Genuine Questions and Saving Darwin: How to be a Christian and Believe in Evolution.
  • Owen Gingerich (born 1930): Mennonite astronomer who went to Goshen College and Harvard. Mr. Gingerich has written about people of faith in science history.[241][242]
  • J. Richard Gott (born 1947): professor of astrophysical sciences at Princeton University. He is known for developing and advocating two cosmological theories with the flavor of science fiction: Time travel and the Doomsday argument. When asked of his religious views in relation to his science, Gott responded that "I’m a Presbyterian. I believe in God; I always thought that was the humble position to take. I like what Einstein said: "God is subtle but not malicious." I think if you want to know how the universe started, that's a legitimate question for physics. But if you want to know why it's here, then you may have to know—to borrow Stephen Hawking's phrase—the mind of God."[243]
  • Robert Griffiths (born 1937): noted American physicist at Carnegie Mellon University. He has written on matters of science and religion.[244]
  • Peter Grünberg (born 1939) is a German physicist, and Nobel Prize in Physics laureate for his discovery with Albert Fert of giant magnetoresistance which brought about a breakthrough in gigabyte hard disk drives[245]
  • John Hartnett (born 1952): Australian Young Earth Creationist who has a PhD and whose research interests include ultra low-noise radar and ultra high stability cryogenic microwave oscillators.[246][247][248]
  • Michał Heller (born 1936): Catholic priest, a member of the Pontifical Academy of Theology, a founding member of the International Society for Science and Religion. He also is a mathematical physicist who has written articles on relativistic physics and Noncommutative geometry. His cross-disciplinary book Creative Tension: Essays on Science and Religion came out in 2003. For this work he won a Templeton Prize. [note 6][249]
  • Antony Hewish (born 1924): British Radio Astronomer who won the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1974 (together with Martin Ryle) for his work on the development of radio aperture synthesis and its role in the discovery of pulsars. He was also awarded the Eddington Medal of the Royal Astronomical Society in 1969. Hewish is a Christian.[250] Hewish also wrote in his introduction to John Polkinghorne's 2009 Questions of Truth, "The ghostly presence of virtual particles defies rational common sense and is non-intuitive for those unacquainted with physics. Religious belief in God, and Christian belief ... may seem strange to common-sense thinking. But when the most elementary physical things behave in this way, we should be prepared to accept that the deepest aspects of our existence go beyond our common-sense understanding."[251]
  • Colin Humphreys (born 1941): British physicist. He is the former Goldsmiths’ Professor of Materials Science and a current Director of Research at Cambridge University, Professor of Experimental Physics at the Royal Institution in London and a Fellow of Selwyn College, Cambridge. Humphreys also "studies the Bible when not pursuing his day-job as a materials scientist."[252]
  • Ian Hutchinson (scientist), physicist and nuclear engineer. He is currently Professor of Nuclear Science and Engineering at the Plasma Science and Fusion Center, Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
  • Christopher Isham (born 1944): theoretical physicist who developed HPO formalism. He teaches at Imperial College London. In addition to being a physicist, he is a philosopher and theologian.[253][254]
  • Ard Louis: Professor in Theoretical Physics at the University of Oxford. Prior to his post at Oxford he taught Theoretical Chemistry at Cambridge University where he was also director of studies in Natural Sciences at Hughes Hall. He has written for The BioLogos Forum.[255]
  • Juan Maldacena (born 1968): Argentine theoretical physicist and string theorist, best known for the most reliable realization of the holographic principle - the AdS/CFT correspondence.[256]
  • Stephen C. Meyer (born 1958): physicist and earth science. Meyers wrote Signature in the Cell and Darwin's Doubt. Worked as a geophysicist for the Atlantic Richfield Company. Meyer earned his Ph.D. in history and philosophy of science in 1991. Director of the Center for Science and Culture at the Discovery Institute and Vice President and Senior Fellow at the DI.[257]
  • Don Page (born 1948):[258] Canadian theoretical physicist and practicing Evangelical Christian, Dr. Page is known for having published several journal articles with Stephen Hawking.[259][260]
  • William Daniel Phillips (born 1948): 1997 Nobel laureate in Physics (1997) who is a founding member of The International Society for Science and Religion.[261]
  • Andrew Pinsent (born 1966): Catholic priest, is the Research Director of the Ian Ramsey Centre for Science and Religion at Oxford University.[262] He is also a particle physicist, whose previous work contributed to the DELPHI experiment at CERN.[263]
  • John Polkinghorne (born 1930): British particle physicist and Anglican priest who wrote Science and the Trinity (2004) ISBN 0-300-10445-6. Winner of the 2002 Templeton Prize.[264]
  • Joel Primack (born 1945): American astrophysicist. A University of California, Santa Cruz, professor, he co-developed the cold dark matter theory that seeks to explain the formation and structure of the universe. Primack has written, "In the last few years astronomy has come together so that we're now able to tell a coherent story" of how the universe began. This story does not contradict God, but instead enlarges [the idea of] God."[265]
  • Hugh Ross (born 1945): Canadian astrophysicist, Christian apologist, and old Earth creationist whose postdoctoral research at Caltech was in studying quasars and galaxies.
  • Russell Stannard (born 1931): British particle physicist who has written several books on the relationship between religion and science, such as Science and the Renewal of Belief, Grounds for Reasonable Belief and Doing Away With God?.[266]
  • Walter Thirring (born 1927): Austrian physicist after whom the Thirring model in quantum field theory is named. He is the son of the physicist Hans Thirring, co-discoverer of the Lense-Thirring frame dragging effect in general relativity. He also wrote Cosmic Impressions: Traces of God in the Laws of Nature.[267]
  • Frank J. Tipler (born 1947): mathematical physicist and cosmologist, holding a joint appointment in the Departments of Mathematics and Physics at Tulane University. Tipler has authored books and papers on the Omega Point, which he claims is a mechanism for the resurrection of the dead. His theological and scientific theorizing are not without controversy, but he has some supporters; for instance, Christian theologian Wolfhart Pannenberg has defended his theology,[268] and physicist David Deutsch has incorporated Tipler's idea of an Omega Point.[269]
  • Jennifer Wiseman: Chief of the Laboratory for Exoplanets and Stellar Astrophysics at NASA Goddard Space Flight Center. An aerial of the Center is shown. In addition she is a co-discoverer of 114P/Wiseman-Skiff. In religion is a Fellow of the American Scientific Affiliation and on June 16, 2010 became the new director for the American Association for the Advancement of Science's Dialogue on Science, Ethics, and Religion.[270]
  • Antonino Zichichi (born 1929): Italian nuclear physicist and former President of the Istituto Nazionale di Fisica Nucleare. He has worked with the Vatican on relations between the Church and Science.[271][272]


He would most certainly lose his faith in Zeus, the hurler of thunderbolts who was fucking Greek
shepherdesses. And, I think Newton would have to re-arrange his theology too with today's know-
ledge of astronomy, astrophysics, and cosmology in his grasp, in my opinion.

But, don't forget about Robert John Russell in your list! And I think I already mentioned Ellis and Dy-
son as being Christians/theists who are working within astronomy, physics, and cosmology in another
post but thankful for the list anyways so readers can see the number of scientists who are believers.

I would wager, however, that the belief came prior to the scientific investigation and studying.

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Reply #22 posted 09/27/17 5:28pm

Dasein

2freaky4church1 said:

Dasein, what about love?


What about it? We talking about Love or love? Agape? Eros?

I don't know what it is and don't care about it too much. There is nothing in the universe, so far,
that suggests it cares about Love/love too, in my opinion.

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Reply #23 posted 09/27/17 5:37pm

morningsong

avatar

Dasein said:

morningsong said:



All alive today. All profess "some" religious leanings. I say "some" because I don't know these people and can't say their depths of devotion. But still, they all have today's indepth knowledge of how things work and yet they are still in wonder of the supernatural.

Physics and Astronomy

  • Freeman Dyson (born 1923): is an English-born American theoretical physicist and mathematician, known for his work in quantum electrodynamics, solid-state physics, astronomy and nuclear engineering.
  • Stephen Barr (born 1953): physicist who worked at Brookhaven National Laboratory and contributed papers to Physical Review as well as Physics Today. He also is a Catholic who writes for First Things and wrote Modern Physics and Ancient Faith. He teaches at the University of Delaware.[232]
  • John D. Barrow (born 1952): English cosmologist who did notable writing on the implications of the Anthropic principle. He is a United Reformed Church member and Christian deist. He won the Templeton Prize in 2006. He once held the position of Gresham Professor of Astronomy.[233][234]
  • Gerald B. Cleaver: professor in the Department of Physics at Baylor University and head of the Early Universe Cosmology and Strings (EUCOS) division of Baylor's Center for Astrophysics, Space Physics & Engineering Research (CASPER). His research specialty is string phenomenology and string model building. He is linked to BioLogos and among his lectures are ""Faith and the New Cosmology."[235][236]
  • Guy Consolmagno (born 1952): American Jesuit astronomer who works at the Vatican Observatory.
  • George Coyne (born 1933): Jesuit astronomer and former director of the Vatican Observatory.
  • Manuel García Doncel (born 1930): Spanish Jesuit physicist, formerly Professor of Physics at Universidad de Barcelona.
  • George Francis Rayner Ellis (born 1939): professor of Complex Systems in the Department of Mathematics and Applied Mathematics at the University of Cape Town in South Africa. He co-authored The Large Scale Structure of Space-Time with University of Cambridge physicist Stephen Hawking, published in 1973, and is considered one of the world's leading theorists in cosmology. He is an active Quaker and in 2004 he won the Templeton Prize.
  • Pamela L. Gay (born 1973): American astronomer, educator and writer, best known for her work in astronomical podcasting. Doctor Gay received her PhD from the University of Texas, Austin, in 2002.[237] Her position as both a skeptic and Christian has been noted upon.[238]
  • Fabiola Gianotti (born October 1960) is an Italian particle physicist and the Director-General of the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN). Her mandate began on 1 January 2016 and runs for a period of five years. She is the first woman to hold the position of CERN Director-General.[239]
  • Karl W. Giberson (born 1957): Canadian physicist and evangelical, formerly a physics professor at Eastern Nazarene College in Massachusetts, Dr Giberson is a prolific author specializing in the creation-evolution debate and who formerly served as vice president of the BioLogos Foundation.[240] He has published several books on the relationship between science and religion, such as The Language of Science and Faith: Straight Answers to Genuine Questions and Saving Darwin: How to be a Christian and Believe in Evolution.
  • Owen Gingerich (born 1930): Mennonite astronomer who went to Goshen College and Harvard. Mr. Gingerich has written about people of faith in science history.[241][242]
  • J. Richard Gott (born 1947): professor of astrophysical sciences at Princeton University. He is known for developing and advocating two cosmological theories with the flavor of science fiction: Time travel and the Doomsday argument. When asked of his religious views in relation to his science, Gott responded that "I’m a Presbyterian. I believe in God; I always thought that was the humble position to take. I like what Einstein said: "God is subtle but not malicious." I think if you want to know how the universe started, that's a legitimate question for physics. But if you want to know why it's here, then you may have to know—to borrow Stephen Hawking's phrase—the mind of God."[243]
  • Robert Griffiths (born 1937): noted American physicist at Carnegie Mellon University. He has written on matters of science and religion.[244]
  • Peter Grünberg (born 1939) is a German physicist, and Nobel Prize in Physics laureate for his discovery with Albert Fert of giant magnetoresistance which brought about a breakthrough in gigabyte hard disk drives[245]
  • John Hartnett (born 1952): Australian Young Earth Creationist who has a PhD and whose research interests include ultra low-noise radar and ultra high stability cryogenic microwave oscillators.[246][247][248]
  • Michał Heller (born 1936): Catholic priest, a member of the Pontifical Academy of Theology, a founding member of the International Society for Science and Religion. He also is a mathematical physicist who has written articles on relativistic physics and Noncommutative geometry. His cross-disciplinary book Creative Tension: Essays on Science and Religion came out in 2003. For this work he won a Templeton Prize. [note 6][249]
  • Antony Hewish (born 1924): British Radio Astronomer who won the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1974 (together with Martin Ryle) for his work on the development of radio aperture synthesis and its role in the discovery of pulsars. He was also awarded the Eddington Medal of the Royal Astronomical Society in 1969. Hewish is a Christian.[250] Hewish also wrote in his introduction to John Polkinghorne's 2009 Questions of Truth, "The ghostly presence of virtual particles defies rational common sense and is non-intuitive for those unacquainted with physics. Religious belief in God, and Christian belief ... may seem strange to common-sense thinking. But when the most elementary physical things behave in this way, we should be prepared to accept that the deepest aspects of our existence go beyond our common-sense understanding."[251]
  • Colin Humphreys (born 1941): British physicist. He is the former Goldsmiths’ Professor of Materials Science and a current Director of Research at Cambridge University, Professor of Experimental Physics at the Royal Institution in London and a Fellow of Selwyn College, Cambridge. Humphreys also "studies the Bible when not pursuing his day-job as a materials scientist."[252]
  • Ian Hutchinson (scientist), physicist and nuclear engineer. He is currently Professor of Nuclear Science and Engineering at the Plasma Science and Fusion Center, Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
  • Christopher Isham (born 1944): theoretical physicist who developed HPO formalism. He teaches at Imperial College London. In addition to being a physicist, he is a philosopher and theologian.[253][254]
  • Ard Louis: Professor in Theoretical Physics at the University of Oxford. Prior to his post at Oxford he taught Theoretical Chemistry at Cambridge University where he was also director of studies in Natural Sciences at Hughes Hall. He has written for The BioLogos Forum.[255]
  • Juan Maldacena (born 1968): Argentine theoretical physicist and string theorist, best known for the most reliable realization of the holographic principle - the AdS/CFT correspondence.[256]
  • Stephen C. Meyer (born 1958): physicist and earth science. Meyers wrote Signature in the Cell and Darwin's Doubt. Worked as a geophysicist for the Atlantic Richfield Company. Meyer earned his Ph.D. in history and philosophy of science in 1991. Director of the Center for Science and Culture at the Discovery Institute and Vice President and Senior Fellow at the DI.[257]
  • Don Page (born 1948):[258] Canadian theoretical physicist and practicing Evangelical Christian, Dr. Page is known for having published several journal articles with Stephen Hawking.[259][260]
  • William Daniel Phillips (born 1948): 1997 Nobel laureate in Physics (1997) who is a founding member of The International Society for Science and Religion.[261]
  • Andrew Pinsent (born 1966): Catholic priest, is the Research Director of the Ian Ramsey Centre for Science and Religion at Oxford University.[262] He is also a particle physicist, whose previous work contributed to the DELPHI experiment at CERN.[263]
  • John Polkinghorne (born 1930): British particle physicist and Anglican priest who wrote Science and the Trinity (2004) ISBN 0-300-10445-6. Winner of the 2002 Templeton Prize.[264]
  • Joel Primack (born 1945): American astrophysicist. A University of California, Santa Cruz, professor, he co-developed the cold dark matter theory that seeks to explain the formation and structure of the universe. Primack has written, "In the last few years astronomy has come together so that we're now able to tell a coherent story" of how the universe began. This story does not contradict God, but instead enlarges [the idea of] God."[265]
  • Hugh Ross (born 1945): Canadian astrophysicist, Christian apologist, and old Earth creationist whose postdoctoral research at Caltech was in studying quasars and galaxies.
  • Russell Stannard (born 1931): British particle physicist who has written several books on the relationship between religion and science, such as Science and the Renewal of Belief, Grounds for Reasonable Belief and Doing Away With God?.[266]
  • Walter Thirring (born 1927): Austrian physicist after whom the Thirring model in quantum field theory is named. He is the son of the physicist Hans Thirring, co-discoverer of the Lense-Thirring frame dragging effect in general relativity. He also wrote Cosmic Impressions: Traces of God in the Laws of Nature.[267]
  • Frank J. Tipler (born 1947): mathematical physicist and cosmologist, holding a joint appointment in the Departments of Mathematics and Physics at Tulane University. Tipler has authored books and papers on the Omega Point, which he claims is a mechanism for the resurrection of the dead. His theological and scientific theorizing are not without controversy, but he has some supporters; for instance, Christian theologian Wolfhart Pannenberg has defended his theology,[268] and physicist David Deutsch has incorporated Tipler's idea of an Omega Point.[269]
  • Jennifer Wiseman: Chief of the Laboratory for Exoplanets and Stellar Astrophysics at NASA Goddard Space Flight Center. An aerial of the Center is shown. In addition she is a co-discoverer of 114P/Wiseman-Skiff. In religion is a Fellow of the American Scientific Affiliation and on June 16, 2010 became the new director for the American Association for the Advancement of Science's Dialogue on Science, Ethics, and Religion.[270]
  • Antonino Zichichi (born 1929): Italian nuclear physicist and former President of the Istituto Nazionale di Fisica Nucleare. He has worked with the Vatican on relations between the Church and Science.[271][272]


He would most certainly lose his faith in Zeus, the hurler of thunderbolts who was fucking Greek
shepherdesses. And, I think Newton would have to re-arrange his theology too with today's know-
ledge of astronomy, astrophysics, and cosmology in his grasp, in my opinion.

But, don't forget about Robert John Russell in your list! And I think I already mentioned Ellis and Dy-
son as being Christians/theists who are working within astronomy, physics, and cosmology in another
post but thankful for the list anyways so readers can see the number of scientists who are believers.

I would wager, however, that the belief came prior to the scientific investigation and studying.



Aw, leave Zeus alone, he ain't did nothing to you.


Maybe Ptolemy would have since my list really only contains Christian believers in one field of study, a bit one-sided I know, but still is that automatically true for Hindu or even Muslim astonomers? I'd waver very heavily with that. Maybe Newton would have, but can't say for sure he would, because many others who do know both worlds haven't, some have, can't predict who though.

I was shocked to see one of my favorite podcasters is on the list.

“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
― T.S. Eliot

“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
― T.S. Eliot
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Reply #24 posted 09/27/17 10:33pm

paisleypark4

avatar

Dasein said:

IanRG said:

.

You have done theology and you know that this is a specious argument with no more validity than the old medieval word play tricks like how many angels can fit on a pin head. Instead of being bored by unrelated questions, you could answer the one asked - where does conciousness (a SOMETHING) come from in things that had no conciousness (where no conciousness is a NOTHING and the chemicals, bits etc. that make up humans have no part that can be considered the conciousness)?


My response was not specious: if God is a something that came from nothing, then obviously some-
thing can come from nothing. So, if God can come from nothing, then why couldn't this particular uni-
verse come from nothing too? There is no word play trick here - I'm just asking Paisley to apply his/
her argument to theism.

You can ask me all kinds of questions about where other abstractions come from: our conception and/
or understanding of love, justice, consciousness, soul, mind. And, even if we don't fully understand
where these ideas came from, it doesn't mean that we must then attribute their humanly existence to
a God. This is because at this very moment, there is no such thing as objective Love, Justice, Con-
sciousness, Soul, or Mind as concrete things existing naturally within the universe and independent of
human abstraction. To answer your question: I have no idea where the idea of consciousness came
from because I have no idea what a consciousness is!

What Paisley was doing was invoking God for our current lack of understanding. But, the history of
science asks that if this is the case, that if we simply invoke God for where we do not have compre-
hension at the moment, then isn't God just an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance? At some
point, even some features of Newton's architectonic God was explained away!


So, Dasein how come science cannot explain what conciousness is? While there is no 'god' there is universal law that applies to each one of us to understand these messages. Universal Law applies to everything that exists and ever will exist. We are all attatched to energy, and that energy cannot 'die'. Even when you are physically present atoms, cells etc still continue to fester and become part of the Earth's living cycle again. Why? What created this Universal Law?


Download all the shit hop that you can for your kids, neices, nephews, and their friends also. That will prevent them from going out and buying it and will prevent some shit hop sales. Every little bit helps - Andy
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemus
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Reply #25 posted 09/27/17 11:12pm

toejam

avatar

paisleypark4 said:

Conciousness is inmaterial. An athiest cannot explain such a thing. no science can explain why we have conciousness to have feelings, dreams and grandiouse talents to our nature. SOMETHING doesnt come from NOTHING.

If anything people who rather not think about that, bore me.

.

Evolutionary biology can help explain why we have feelings, dreams and grandiose talents.

.

An atheist is not bound to believing that something came from nothing. An atheist can, or cannot, believe that. An atheist who took either position would not be any less of an atheist. The only determining factor that makes someone an atheist is their lack of belief in a theistic God.

.

How do you propose why and how God created beings with feelings, dreams and grandiouse talents? What motivated him to do that if he was already perfect and lacking in nothing? How did he go about instilling those characteristics into humans? With magic pneumatic dust? Did he just click his immaterial fingers and presto!? If so, how does that work? How is an immaterial God able to create and manipulate material stuff?

.

[Edited 9/28/17 0:51am]

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #26 posted 09/27/17 11:15pm

toejam

avatar

2freaky4church1 said:

What created matter? It created itself the atheist says.

.

An atheist can believe that. Or they can not believe that. Neither would be any less of an atheist.

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #27 posted 09/27/17 11:16pm

toejam

avatar

2freaky4church1 said:

They do--Holy Ghost.

.

Nah. I determine what is moral based on evidence, logic and reason as best I can.

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #28 posted 09/28/17 12:24am

IanRG

Dasein said:



IanRG said:




Dasein said:




Take this argument and apply it to theism: so, where did God come from if something doesn't come
from nothing? If God exists independent of nothing and/or something, then obviously that would be
an example of something coming from nothing.

Theists who do not think about that bore me!


wink



.


You have done theology and you know that this is a specious argument with no more validity than the old medieval word play tricks like how many angels can fit on a pin head. Instead of being bored by unrelated questions, you could answer the one asked - where does consciousness (a SOMETHING) come from in things that had no consciousness (where no consciousness is a NOTHING and the chemicals, bits etc. that make up humans have no part that can be considered the consciousness)?




My response was not specious: if God is a something that came from nothing, then obviously some-
thing can come from nothing. So, if God can come from nothing, then why couldn't this particular uni-
verse come from nothing too? There is no word play trick here - I'm just asking Paisley to apply his/
her argument to theism.

You can ask me all kinds of questions about where other abstractions come from: our conception and/
or understanding of love, justice, consciousness, soul, mind. And, even if we don't fully understand
where these ideas came from, it doesn't mean that we must then attribute their humanly existence to
a God. This is because at this very moment, there is no such thing as objective Love, Justice, Con-
sciousness, Soul, or Mind as concrete things existing naturally within the universe and independent of
human abstraction. To answer your question: I have no idea where the idea of consciousness came
from because I have no idea what a consciousness is!

What Paisley was doing was invoking God for our current lack of understanding. But, the history of
science asks that if this is the case, that if we simply invoke God for where we do not have compre-
hension at the moment, then isn't God just an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance? At some
point, even some features of Newton's architectonic God was explained away!




The question was simple: How do we have consciousness? Your focus on this being linked to something from nothing and ignoring the question to ask where did God come from is nothing but specious and a way of avoiding answering the question. You were never interested in an answer - You flagged it as boring. Your faith that this is just a God in the gaps issue is you falling for the God in the Gaps fallacy. Science, when it explains how something may have come to be never explains why it came to be and has never disproved God and God's hand in it. This is never the Scientists intent, it is only the Atheist's hope.
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Reply #29 posted 09/28/17 12:36am

toejam

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IanRG said:

How do we have consciousness?

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Brains produce our consciousness. No brains, no consciousness. How the brain works to produce consciousness?... now that's a harder question! But it's a bottom up process it seems, as opposed to a top down one.

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Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
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