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Thread started 09/10/17 10:14am

midnightmover

Howard Dean takes the McCarthyist witchhunt to new levels of crazy

He's basically calling on Mueller to investigate Jill Stein for her Russian links, saying she gave Trump the victory and was possibly being paid by Russia. Incredibly, this loonytune/fruitcake's claims are actually being taken seriously. If some of you guys can't see that this is McCarthyism 101 then I feel sorry for you.

This whole witchhunt started with a lie (the lie that 17 intelligence agencies said Russia hacked the DNC) and has gone downhill from there. Logic, reason and honesty be damned.

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Reply #1 posted 09/10/17 10:21am

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

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midnightmover said:

He's basically calling on Mueller to investigate Jill Stein for her Russian links, saying she gave Trump the victory and was possibly being paid by Russia. Incredibly, this loonytune/fruitcake's claims are actually being taken seriously. If some of you guys can't see that this is McCarthyism 101 then I feel sorry for you.

This whole witchhunt started with a lie (the lie that 17 intelligence agencies said Russia hacked the DNC) and has gone downhill from there. Logic, reason and honesty be damned.

Ther's been plenty of evidence that the Russians did INDEED participate so let's stop pretending ok. Get real.

I have been the first to say that this is not as important an issue as the sensationalism from CNN and other media and the stupidity of the American people as the real reason Trump was elected, but to call it loony tunes is not having a grasp on reality. Heck, Facebook just recently divulged that a Russian organization paid 100's of thousands in advertising supporting Trump.

So you should check yourself before proceeding further down this path. Being a Jill Stein fanboy has clouded your judgment. That's something everyone here seems to do. Their judgments are echo-chamber based rather than objectively based.

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Reply #2 posted 09/10/17 5:57pm

hausofmoi7

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Firstly, the now infamous picture of Dr Stein in Russia is often depicted without context. Dr Stein was there to give a speech urging Russia not to militarily attack Syria and asking that nations seek alternative methods to resolve conflict.

Secondly, unlike many of us who think that Russias meddling in the election is an over exaggeration and also others who thought it was just an outright Fabrication, Dr Stein didn't share those views.
It was Dr Stein who asked for the vote recount as she was weary of the votes being tampered with by outsiders, potentially even Russia. Dr Stein was also the one who organized to raise the funds for that investigation and vote recount.


.
[Edited 9/11/17 0:02am]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #3 posted 09/11/17 9:56am

2freaky4church
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Time to ignore Dems

"2freaky is a complete stud." DJ
"2freaky is very down." 2Elijah.
"2freaky convinced me to join Antifa: OnlyNDA
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Reply #4 posted 09/11/17 5:46pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

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hausofmoi7 said:

Firstly, the now infamous picture of Dr Stein in Russia is often depicted without context. Dr Stein was there to give a speech urging Russia not to militarily attack Syria and asking that nations seek alternative methods to resolve conflict. Secondly, unlike many of us who think that Russias meddling in the election is an over exaggeration and also others who thought it was just an outright Fabrication, Dr Stein didn't share those views. It was Dr Stein who asked for the vote recount as she was weary of the votes being tampered with by outsiders, potentially even Russia. Dr Stein was also the one who organized to raise the funds for that investigation and vote recount. . [Edited 9/11/17 0:02am]



I know very little about Jill and seems to me by all accounts as an intelligent good-willed person. That still does not mean no one should look into her dealing with the Russians. Any investigation would be derelict in not delving into the matter regardless. That's just common sense. Hence INVESTIGATION.


[Edited 9/11/17 17:49pm]

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Reply #5 posted 09/12/17 12:41am

hausofmoi7

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Ugot2shakesumthin said:



hausofmoi7 said:


Firstly, the now infamous picture of Dr Stein in Russia is often depicted without context. Dr Stein was there to give a speech urging Russia not to militarily attack Syria and asking that nations seek alternative methods to resolve conflict. Secondly, unlike many of us who think that Russias meddling in the election is an over exaggeration and also others who thought it was just an outright Fabrication, Dr Stein didn't share those views. It was Dr Stein who asked for the vote recount as she was weary of the votes being tampered with by outsiders, potentially even Russia. Dr Stein was also the one who organized to raise the funds for that investigation and vote recount. . [Edited 9/11/17 0:02am]



I know very little about Jill and seems to me by all accounts as an intelligent good-willed person. That still does not mean no one should look into her dealing with the Russians. Any investigation would be derelict in not delving into the matter regardless. That's just common sense. Hence INVESTIGATION.


[Edited 9/11/17 17:49pm]


I already pointed out it's highly unlikely of Dr Stein.

If it's true, then you have some very nice enemies.
So basically people think Russia is funding a political party (the Green Party) that promotes policies that are in the best interest of the American people and also world peace.
If it's true, I'm sorry but that is really dope.
[Edited 9/12/17 3:33am]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #6 posted 09/12/17 4:06am

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

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hausofmoi7 said:

Ugot2shakesumthin said:



I know very little about Jill and seems to me by all accounts as an intelligent good-willed person. That still does not mean no one should look into her dealing with the Russians. Any investigation would be derelict in not delving into the matter regardless. That's just common sense. Hence INVESTIGATION.


[Edited 9/11/17 17:49pm]

I already pointed out it's highly unlikely of Dr Stein. If it's true, then you have some very nice enemies. So basically people think Russia is funding a political party (the Green Party) that promotes policies that are in the best interest of the American people and also world peace. If it's true, I'm sorry but that is really dope. [Edited 9/12/17 3:33am]



If there is an investigation, then everything gets investigated. Regardless how "unlikely," anyone thinks anything is. That;s just basic operating procedure.

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Reply #7 posted 09/12/17 6:45am

jjhunsecker

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Ugot2shakesumthin said:

hausofmoi7 said:

Ugot2shakesumthin said: I already pointed out it's highly unlikely of Dr Stein. If it's true, then you have some very nice enemies. So basically people think Russia is funding a political party (the Green Party) that promotes policies that are in the best interest of the American people and also world peace. If it's true, I'm sorry but that is really dope. [Edited 9/12/17 3:33am]



If there is an investigation, then everything gets investigated. Regardless how "unlikely," anyone thinks anything is. That;s just basic operating procedure.

So true...I mean, whoever thought a GOP candidate for president- the party of McCarthy and Reagan's "Evil Empire"- would be so in bed with the Russkies

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Reply #8 posted 09/12/17 7:52am

hausofmoi7

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jjhunsecker said:



Ugot2shakesumthin said:




hausofmoi7 said:


Ugot2shakesumthin said: I already pointed out it's highly unlikely of Dr Stein. If it's true, then you have some very nice enemies. So basically people think Russia is funding a political party (the Green Party) that promotes policies that are in the best interest of the American people and also world peace. If it's true, I'm sorry but that is really dope. [Edited 9/12/17 3:33am]



If there is an investigation, then everything gets investigated. Regardless how "unlikely," anyone thinks anything is. That;s just basic operating procedure.



So true...I mean, whoever thought a GOP candidate for president- the party of McCarthy and Reagan's "Evil Empire"- would be so in bed with the Russkies


If Russia wanted Trump elected they did an awful job of it on RT (Russian tv America)
That channel had/has more criticism of Trump and his policies than CNN, MSNBC, NBC and PBS combined.
Russia is actually transmitting the only progressive TV news outlet in America.
Larry King is as far right as the channel goes and I think that even he didn't even endorse Trump.



.
[Edited 9/12/17 8:00am]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #9 posted 09/12/17 8:14am

jjhunsecker

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hausofmoi7 said:

jjhunsecker said:



Ugot2shakesumthin said:




hausofmoi7 said:


Ugot2shakesumthin said: I already pointed out it's highly unlikely of Dr Stein. If it's true, then you have some very nice enemies. So basically people think Russia is funding a political party (the Green Party) that promotes policies that are in the best interest of the American people and also world peace. If it's true, I'm sorry but that is really dope. [Edited 9/12/17 3:33am]



If there is an investigation, then everything gets investigated. Regardless how "unlikely," anyone thinks anything is. That;s just basic operating procedure.



So true...I mean, whoever thought a GOP candidate for president- the party of McCarthy and Reagan's "Evil Empire"- would be so in bed with the Russkies


If Russia wanted Trump elected they did an awful job of it on RT (Russian tv America)
That channel had/has more criticism of Trump and his policies than CNN, MSNBC, NBC and PBS combined.
Russia is actually transmitting the only progressive TV news outlet in America.
Larry King is as far right as the channel goes and I think that even he didn't even endorse Trump.



.
[Edited 9/12/17 8:00am]


Doesn't mean the Russkies didn't try to interfere in our elections on behalf of Trump. You can't trust them . What was on RT might have been just a ploy to divert attention from their actual intentions .
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Reply #10 posted 09/12/17 8:44am

2freaky4church
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What hilarious is that Dean and Hillary think the actual left are as crazy as Bannon or our DJ. hehe

"2freaky is a complete stud." DJ
"2freaky is very down." 2Elijah.
"2freaky convinced me to join Antifa: OnlyNDA
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Reply #11 posted 09/16/17 12:13am

midnightmover

Jesus, jj, have you heard yourself? You're talking about the President bring "in bed with" the "Ruskies"? Who the hell says "Ruskies" nowadays? It's almost like you're trying to prove my point for me. These are McCarthyist times we are living in.


I was going to respond to that other guy's post but I have decided to protect my sanity instead. There is no evidence that Trump is working for Russia, but you guys will keep banging that drum, right up until the witchhunt ends, with Trump acquited of these false charges. When that happens I don't know what you will do with yourselves.

As for Jill Stein, if people think she takes votes away from Democrats, then she would've done that in 2012 too when she was also running for President, in which case she would've been hurting Russia since Mitt Romney was famously more anti-Russian than Obama. Obama even mocked Romney back then for his Cold War style anti-Russian rhetoric.

So the conspiracy theorists are asking us to believe that Jill Stein - after years in politics consistently making the same arguments - all of a sudden became a Russian agent in the last year or two. Why? If it's money she wants then she wouldn't be in the Green Party. She'd be a corporate Democrat instead.

Coward Dean is doing his favourite thing here, which is: punching left. He did the same thing a few months ago when he attacked Tulsi Gabbard and called for her to be removed from office. Her crime? Being the sole voice of reason and opposing Donald Trump's illegal and totally unjustified airstrike on the Syrian government back in April.

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Reply #12 posted 09/16/17 9:18am

jjhunsecker

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midnightmover said:

Jesus, jj, have you heard yourself? You're talking about the President bring "in bed with" the "Ruskies"? Who the hell says "Ruskies" nowadays? It's almost like you're trying to prove my point for me. These are McCarthyist times we are living in.



I was going to respond to that other guy's post but I have decided to protect my sanity instead. There is no evidence that Trump is working for Russia, but you guys will keep banging that drum, right up until the witchhunt ends, with Trump acquited of these false charges. When that happens I don't know what you will do with yourselves.

As for Jill Stein, if people think she takes votes away from Democrats, then she would've done that in 2012 too when she was also running for President, in which case she would've been hurting Russia since Mitt Romney was famously more anti-Russian than Obama. Obama even mocked Romney back then for his Cold War style anti-Russian rhetoric.

So the conspiracy theorists are asking us to believe that Jill Stein - after years in politics consistently making the same arguments - all of a sudden became a Russian agent in the last year or two. Why? If it's money she wants then she wouldn't be in the Green Party. She'd be a corporate Democrat instead.

Coward Dean is doing his favourite thing here, which is: punching left. He did the same thing a few months ago when he attacked Tulsi Gabbard and called for her to be removed from office. Her crime? Being the sole voice of reason and opposing Donald Trump's illegal and totally unjustified airstrike on the Syrian government back in April.



I say "Russkies" because I find it funny

On a serious note, Trump IS in bed with them . Anyone who knows NY real estate will tell you that Trump has a reputation as a deadbeat who doesn't pay his bills, and no American bank would lend him money. So he's been financed for years by the Russkies, and is probably in hock to them for billions of dollars. That's why he refuses to release his tax returns (please don't tell me you're naive enough to buy his story about "being under audit"). Go Google the name Felix Sater, and keep in mind that Trump keeps claiming now that he doesn't know him ....

Let's see what you have to say when Mueller is done
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Reply #13 posted 09/16/17 9:48am

midnightmover

jjhunsecker said:

midnightmover said:

Jesus, jj, have you heard yourself? You're talking about the President bring "in bed with" the "Ruskies"? Who the hell says "Ruskies" nowadays? It's almost like you're trying to prove my point for me. These are McCarthyist times we are living in.


I was going to respond to that other guy's post but I have decided to protect my sanity instead. There is no evidence that Trump is working for Russia, but you guys will keep banging that drum, right up until the witchhunt ends, with Trump acquited of these false charges. When that happens I don't know what you will do with yourselves.

As for Jill Stein, if people think she takes votes away from Democrats, then she would've done that in 2012 too when she was also running for President, in which case she would've been hurting Russia since Mitt Romney was famously more anti-Russian than Obama. Obama even mocked Romney back then for his Cold War style anti-Russian rhetoric.

So the conspiracy theorists are asking us to believe that Jill Stein - after years in politics consistently making the same arguments - all of a sudden became a Russian agent in the last year or two. Why? If it's money she wants then she wouldn't be in the Green Party. She'd be a corporate Democrat instead.

Coward Dean is doing his favourite thing here, which is: punching left. He did the same thing a few months ago when he attacked Tulsi Gabbard and called for her to be removed from office. Her crime? Being the sole voice of reason and opposing Donald Trump's illegal and totally unjustified airstrike on the Syrian government back in April.

I say "Russkies" because I find it funny On a serious note, Trump IS in bed with them . Anyone who knows NY real estate will tell you that Trump has a reputation as a deadbeat who doesn't pay his bills, and no American bank would lend him money. So he's been financed for years by the Russkies, and is probably in hock to them for billions of dollars. That's why he refuses to release his tax returns (please don't tell me you're naive enough to buy his story about "being under audit"). Go Google the name Felix Sater, and keep in mind that Trump keeps claiming now that he doesn't know him .... Let's see what you have to say when Mueller is done

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Trump had financial ties to Russia. He's an international businessman with businesses operating all over the world. But the claim being made is that he is basically working for the Kremlin. That is an allegation which still has no evidence to back it up. In fact the only concrete thing that's been produced (the meeting with Trump Jr) actually points in the opposite direction. If the Trump team was in touch with Putin then there's no way they would've been taken in by this music promoter, no way they would bring someone brand new into the picture at such a late stage, and no way they would have all those people meeting in one place at one time.

Financial ties to Russia is not the same thing as being in kahoots with the Kremlin. That's the kind of logical distinction you guys don't seem to be capable of, and it's why I think you are all so easily manipulated. The goalposts are being moved all the time and you never seem to notice (or care).

And your use of the term "Ruskies" is indicative of the bigotry and demonization of Russia that has been whipped up here. You are using xenophobic slurs against another country in exactly the same way as the right-wingers usually do. Look what your faux left leaders have done to you. They've got you using the old "I was only joking" excuse for bigotry. How many casual racists have used that one over the years?

[Edited 9/17/17 3:27am]

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Reply #14 posted 09/16/17 10:46am

2freaky4church
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Everybody on Maher last night bashed Bernie. Salmon Rushdie did a rant about purity. Explains why he writes fiction.

Yea, fuck purity, the homeless should just want to be homeless. Eating, fuck eating, don't be a purist

"2freaky is a complete stud." DJ
"2freaky is very down." 2Elijah.
"2freaky convinced me to join Antifa: OnlyNDA
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Reply #15 posted 09/16/17 3:07pm

jjhunsecker

avatar

midnightmover said:



jjhunsecker said:


midnightmover said:

Jesus, jj, have you heard yourself? You're talking about the President bring "in bed with" the "Ruskies"? Who the hell says "Ruskies" nowadays? It's almost like you're trying to prove my point for me. These are McCarthyist times we are living in.



I was going to respond to that other guy's post but I have decided to protect my sanity instead. There is no evidence that Trump is working for Russia, but you guys will keep banging that drum, right up until the witchhunt ends, with Trump acquited of these false charges. When that happens I don't know what you will do with yourselves.

As for Jill Stein, if people think she takes votes away from Democrats, then she would've done that in 2012 too when she was also running for President, in which case she would've been hurting Russia since Mitt Romney was famously more anti-Russian than Obama. Obama even mocked Romney back then for his Cold War style anti-Russian rhetoric.

So the conspiracy theorists are asking us to believe that Jill Stein - after years in politics consistently making the same arguments - all of a sudden became a Russian agent in the last year or two. Why? If it's money she wants then she wouldn't be in the Green Party. She'd be a corporate Democrat instead.

Coward Dean is doing his favourite thing here, which is: punching left. He did the same thing a few months ago when he attacked Tulsi Gabbard and called for her to be removed from office. Her crime? Being the sole voice of reason and opposing Donald Trump's illegal and totally unjustified airstrike on the Syrian government back in April.



I say "Russkies" because I find it funny On a serious note, Trump IS in bed with them . Anyone who knows NY real estate will tell you that Trump has a reputation as a deadbeat who doesn't pay his bills, and no American bank would lend him money. So he's been financed for years by the Russkies, and is probably in hock to them for billions of dollars. That's why he refuses to release his tax returns (please don't tell me you're naive enough to buy his story about "being under audit"). Go Google the name Felix Sater, and keep in mind that Trump keeps claiming now that he doesn't know him .... Let's see what you have to say when Mueller is done

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Trump had financial ties to Russia. He's an international businessman with businesses operating all over the world. But the claim being made is that he is basically working for the Kremlin. That is an allegation which still has no evidence to back it up. In fact the only concrete thing that's been produced (the meeting with Trump Jr) actually points in the opposite direction. If the Trump team was in touch with Putin then there's no way they would've been taken in by this music promoter, no way they would bring someone brand new into the picture at such a late stage, and no way they would have all those people meeting at one place at one time.

Financial ties to Russia is not the same thing as being in kahoots with the Kremlin. That's the kind of logical distinction you guys don't seem to be capable of, and it's why I think you are all so easily manipulated. The goalposts are being moved all the time and you never seem to notice (or care).

And your use of the term "Ruskies" is indicative of the bigotry and demonization of Russia that has been whipped up here. You are using xenophobic slurs against another country in exactly the same way as the right-wingers usually do. Look what your faux left leaders have done to you. They've got you using the old "I was only joking" excuse for bigotry. How many casual racists have used that one over the years?

[Edited 9/16/17 9:49am]



Why didn't he release his returns ?
We'll see what you have to say when Mueller's investigation is complete
And if Clinton or Obama had spoken so favorably about Russia, they would have been torn to pieces.
And why are you so favorable to the Russians anyway?
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Reply #16 posted 09/16/17 11:42pm

midnightmover

jjhunsecker said:

midnightmover said:

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Trump had financial ties to Russia. He's an international businessman with businesses operating all over the world. But the claim being made is that he is basically working for the Kremlin. That is an allegation which still has no evidence to back it up. In fact the only concrete thing that's been produced (the meeting with Trump Jr) actually points in the opposite direction. If the Trump team was in touch with Putin then there's no way they would've been taken in by this music promoter, no way they would bring someone brand new into the picture at such a late stage, and no way they would have all those people meeting at one place at one time.

Financial ties to Russia is not the same thing as being in kahoots with the Kremlin. That's the kind of logical distinction you guys don't seem to be capable of, and it's why I think you are all so easily manipulated. The goalposts are being moved all the time and you never seem to notice (or care).

And your use of the term "Ruskies" is indicative of the bigotry and demonization of Russia that has been whipped up here. You are using xenophobic slurs against another country in exactly the same way as the right-wingers usually do. Look what your faux left leaders have done to you. They've got you using the old "I was only joking" excuse for bigotry. How many casual racists have used that one over the years?

[Edited 9/16/17 9:49am]

Why didn't he release his returns ? We'll see what you have to say when Mueller's investigation is complete And if Clinton or Obama had spoken so favorably about Russia, they would have been torn to pieces. And why are you so favorable to the Russians anyway?

Hillary Clinton did a good job in their first debate of listing possible reasons why he won't release his tax returns. I would refer you to that clip for an answer to your question. But not releasing his tax returns is a looong way from being evidence that he's in the pocket of Putin.

Anyone who speaks favourably of Russia in the current climate would be "torn to pieces", whoever they are. Donald Trump is being torn to pieces specifically for that reason and for daring to challenge the foreign policy establishment. That's what this whole thing is all about, and I think it's a massive blindspot most of the public has, for the simple reason that they are unaware of the deep state and how it works hand in hand with the media. This is not a conspiracy theory. It is an objective fact that is very easy to demonstrate. The example I've used on here multiple times is Ukraine in 2014, but you can add Libya, Venezuela, Syria and many others to the list. In each case the public is wilfully misled in a way that supports the military industrial complex. It takes a very brave soul to speak out about this in any way. Your own former President Dwight D. Eisenhower warned specifically about this danger when he left office in 1961. It's amazing how few Americans have reflected on what their own President told them back then and how prophetic his words have turned out to be. The list of lies that have been advanced to promote war and conflict is jaw dropping. The scale of the duplicity is monumental.

So it's not that I'm "favorable to Russia". Russia is a socially backward country with a tinpot authoritarian leader (he's not a dictator though). But Russia is being used as a convenient bogeyman to justify American imperialism. Russia happens to have been on the right side of most of its recent disputes with the US. The US were wrong on Iraq, and a million people paid for it with their lives. The US was wrong on Libya, and that country is now a disaster zone because of it. The US was wrong on Syria. The help you give to jihadists there and throughout the Middle East is DISGUSTING! Russia is not committing these sins, you are. The only reason you don't see it this way is because you rely on the media to keep you informed and they are pure propagandists when it comes to foreign policy.

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Reply #17 posted 09/17/17 2:36am

jjhunsecker

avatar

midnightmover said:



jjhunsecker said:


midnightmover said:


It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Trump had financial ties to Russia. He's an international businessman with businesses operating all over the world. But the claim being made is that he is basically working for the Kremlin. That is an allegation which still has no evidence to back it up. In fact the only concrete thing that's been produced (the meeting with Trump Jr) actually points in the opposite direction. If the Trump team was in touch with Putin then there's no way they would've been taken in by this music promoter, no way they would bring someone brand new into the picture at such a late stage, and no way they would have all those people meeting at one place at one time.

Financial ties to Russia is not the same thing as being in kahoots with the Kremlin. That's the kind of logical distinction you guys don't seem to be capable of, and it's why I think you are all so easily manipulated. The goalposts are being moved all the time and you never seem to notice (or care).

And your use of the term "Ruskies" is indicative of the bigotry and demonization of Russia that has been whipped up here. You are using xenophobic slurs against another country in exactly the same way as the right-wingers usually do. Look what your faux left leaders have done to you. They've got you using the old "I was only joking" excuse for bigotry. How many casual racists have used that one over the years?


[Edited 9/16/17 9:49am]



Why didn't he release his returns ? We'll see what you have to say when Mueller's investigation is complete And if Clinton or Obama had spoken so favorably about Russia, they would have been torn to pieces. And why are you so favorable to the Russians anyway?

Hillary Clinton did a good job in their first debate of listing possible reasons why he won't release his tax returns. I would refer you to that clip for an answer to your question. But not releasing his tax returns is a looong way from being evidence that he's in the pocket of Putin.

Anyone who speaks favourably of Russia in the current climate would be "torn to pieces", whoever they are. Donald Trump is being torn to pieces specifically for that reason and for daring to challenge the foreign policy establishment. That's what this whole thing is all about, and I think it's a massive blindspot most of the public has, for the simple reason that they are unaware of the deep state and how it works hand in hand with the media. This is not a conspiracy theory. It is an objective fact that is very easy to demonstrate. The example I've used on here multiple times is Ukraine in 2014, but you can add Libya, Venezuela, Syria and many others to the list. In each case the public is wilfully misled in a way that supports the military industrial complex. It takes a very brave soul to speak out about this in any way. Your own former President Dwight D. Eisenhower warned specifically about this danger when he left office in 1961. It's amazing how few Americans have reflected on what their own President told them back then and how prophetic his words have turned out to be. The list of lies that have been advanced to promote war and conflict is jaw dropping. The scale of the duplicity is monumental.

So it's not that I'm "favorable to Russia". Russia is a socially backward country with a tinpot authoritarian leader (he's not a dictator though). But Russia is being used as a convenient bogeyman to justify American imperialism. Russia happens to have been on the right side of most of its recent disputes with the US. The US were wrong on Iraq, and a million people paid for it with their lives. The US was wrong on Libya, and that country is now a disaster zone because of it. The US was wrong on Syria. The help you give to jihadists there and throughout the Middle East is DISGUSTING! Russia is not committing these sins, you are. The only reason you don't see it this way is because you rely on the media to keep you informed and they are pure propagandists when it comes to foreign policy.



Trump is a "useful idiot" to the Russkies. Anyone who thinks he's "brave", or even has any in-depth knowledge of geo-political realities or "the military industrial complex" is sadly mistaken and so far off the mark, it would be funny if it wasn't so potentially disastrous. Trump knows nothing, and cares about nothing but himself and his own ego. Putin is playing this idiot like a Stratavarius.

And it's very easy to dismiss information that doesn't fit your world view and biases as "media manipulation "... how far is that from Trump and company bleating "fake news " at any story that doesn't fawn over him ?
[Edited 9/17/17 2:41am]
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Reply #18 posted 09/17/17 3:24am

midnightmover

jjhunsecker said:

midnightmover said:

Hillary Clinton did a good job in their first debate of listing possible reasons why he won't release his tax returns. I would refer you to that clip for an answer to your question. But not releasing his tax returns is a looong way from being evidence that he's in the pocket of Putin.

Anyone who speaks favourably of Russia in the current climate would be "torn to pieces", whoever they are. Donald Trump is being torn to pieces specifically for that reason and for daring to challenge the foreign policy establishment. That's what this whole thing is all about, and I think it's a massive blindspot most of the public has, for the simple reason that they are unaware of the deep state and how it works hand in hand with the media. This is not a conspiracy theory. It is an objective fact that is very easy to demonstrate. The example I've used on here multiple times is Ukraine in 2014, but you can add Libya, Venezuela, Syria and many others to the list. In each case the public is wilfully misled in a way that supports the military industrial complex. It takes a very brave soul to speak out about this in any way. Your own former President Dwight D. Eisenhower warned specifically about this danger when he left office in 1961. It's amazing how few Americans have reflected on what their own President told them back then and how prophetic his words have turned out to be. The list of lies that have been advanced to promote war and conflict is jaw dropping. The scale of the duplicity is monumental.

So it's not that I'm "favorable to Russia". Russia is a socially backward country with a tinpot authoritarian leader (he's not a dictator though). But Russia is being used as a convenient bogeyman to justify American imperialism. Russia happens to have been on the right side of most of its recent disputes with the US. The US were wrong on Iraq, and a million people paid for it with their lives. The US was wrong on Libya, and that country is now a disaster zone because of it. The US was wrong on Syria. The help you give to jihadists there and throughout the Middle East is DISGUSTING! Russia is not committing these sins, you are. The only reason you don't see it this way is because you rely on the media to keep you informed and they are pure propagandists when it comes to foreign policy.

Trump is a "useful idiot" to the Russkies. Anyone who thinks he's "brave", or even has any in-depth knowledge of geo-political realities or "the military industrial complex" is sadly mistaken and so far off the mark, it would be funny if it wasn't so potentially disastrous. Trump knows nothing, and cares about nothing but himself and his own ego. Putin is playing this idiot like a Stratavarius. And it's very easy to dismiss information that doesn't fit your world view and biases as "media manipulation "... how far is that from Trump and company bleating "fake news " at any story that doesn't fawn over him ? [Edited 9/17/17 2:41am]

My opinion of Trump is very similar to yours in most ways. Our only disagreement is that you think he's working for Putin (despite absolutely no evidence) and I - noticing that there's no evidence and knowing how the establishment works on foreign policy - do not believe it. If evidence is ever presented then I may come to believe it, but so far it's nowhere in sight. If Trump falls because of this it will be because of his reaction to the witchhunt (for example telling a lie about something), not because there's any substance to the charges.

And I am not dismissing information. You are the one doing that. Why are you saying nothing about the fact that the "17 intelligence agencies" mantra that was repeated thousands of times by the establishment has been exposed as a lie? Not a mistake, but a lie. The politicians and journalists LIED to you about that. That is not a small point. It tells you something fundamental about the establishment. When it comes to foreign policy in particular they are one big echo chamber of propaganda. There is no way that lie could've been taken seriously if they were not wilful collaborators in deception. WikiLeaks called out that lie IMMEDIATELY and pointed out how easy it was to disprove, so why did the rest of the media and politicians go on repeating it?

This whole conspiracy theory is based around an alledged hack of the DNC, which has itself never been proven. Indeed, kool aid drinkers like yourself completely ignored that when the ICA released its report designed to bolster this story they included this sentence... "judgments are not intended to imply that we have proof that shows something to be a fact.” That sentence is absolutely crucial, yet media reports totally missed it. No intelligence agency has ever said the DNC hack happened. They've said that in their judgement they believe it happened. Yet if it did happen they wouldn't be talking about "belief". They're talking about "belief" because they have no evidence.


Do you ever hear Rachel Maddow pointing out the things that I'm pointing out here? Of course not, because she's too busy playing you for a fool. The whole establishment is hoodwinking you. Dwight D. Eisenhower would understand perfectly.

[Edited 9/17/17 5:28am]

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Reply #19 posted 09/17/17 3:34am

midnightmover

2freaky4church1 said:

Everybody on Maher last night bashed Bernie. Salmon Rushdie did a rant about purity. Explains why he writes fiction.

Yea, fuck purity, the homeless should just want to be homeless. Eating, fuck eating, don't be a purist

It's always gonna be this way. They own the system. They're always gonna use it to their own ends.


The fact that Sanders got as far as he did in the face of it all, gives you reason to hope. My own advice is for American progressives to do what British progressives have done. Take over the party that was meant to be serving you all along. There's still a long way to go with the Labour Party over here, but big progress has been made just by us sticking to our guns and not allowing them (the neoliberals) to dictate the terms of debate. Do the same in the US. Take over the Democratic Party. It's yours.

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Reply #20 posted 09/17/17 1:35pm

2freaky4church
1

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He was good on single payer the other day.

"2freaky is a complete stud." DJ
"2freaky is very down." 2Elijah.
"2freaky convinced me to join Antifa: OnlyNDA
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Reply #21 posted 09/17/17 4:30pm

jjhunsecker

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midnightmover said:



jjhunsecker said:


midnightmover said:


Hillary Clinton did a good job in their first debate of listing possible reasons why he won't release his tax returns. I would refer you to that clip for an answer to your question. But not releasing his tax returns is a looong way from being evidence that he's in the pocket of Putin.

Anyone who speaks favourably of Russia in the current climate would be "torn to pieces", whoever they are. Donald Trump is being torn to pieces specifically for that reason and for daring to challenge the foreign policy establishment. That's what this whole thing is all about, and I think it's a massive blindspot most of the public has, for the simple reason that they are unaware of the deep state and how it works hand in hand with the media. This is not a conspiracy theory. It is an objective fact that is very easy to demonstrate. The example I've used on here multiple times is Ukraine in 2014, but you can add Libya, Venezuela, Syria and many others to the list. In each case the public is wilfully misled in a way that supports the military industrial complex. It takes a very brave soul to speak out about this in any way. Your own former President Dwight D. Eisenhower warned specifically about this danger when he left office in 1961. It's amazing how few Americans have reflected on what their own President told them back then and how prophetic his words have turned out to be. The list of lies that have been advanced to promote war and conflict is jaw dropping. The scale of the duplicity is monumental.

So it's not that I'm "favorable to Russia". Russia is a socially backward country with a tinpot authoritarian leader (he's not a dictator though). But Russia is being used as a convenient bogeyman to justify American imperialism. Russia happens to have been on the right side of most of its recent disputes with the US. The US were wrong on Iraq, and a million people paid for it with their lives. The US was wrong on Libya, and that country is now a disaster zone because of it. The US was wrong on Syria. The help you give to jihadists there and throughout the Middle East is DISGUSTING! Russia is not committing these sins, you are. The only reason you don't see it this way is because you rely on the media to keep you informed and they are pure propagandists when it comes to foreign policy.



Trump is a "useful idiot" to the Russkies. Anyone who thinks he's "brave", or even has any in-depth knowledge of geo-political realities or "the military industrial complex" is sadly mistaken and so far off the mark, it would be funny if it wasn't so potentially disastrous. Trump knows nothing, and cares about nothing but himself and his own ego. Putin is playing this idiot like a Stratavarius. And it's very easy to dismiss information that doesn't fit your world view and biases as "media manipulation "... how far is that from Trump and company bleating "fake news " at any story that doesn't fawn over him ? [Edited 9/17/17 2:41am]

My opinion of Trump is very similar to yours in most ways. Our only disagreement is that you think he's working for Putin (despite absolutely no evidence) and I - noticing that there's no evidence and knowing how the establishment works on foreign policy - do not believe it. If evidence is ever presented then I may come to believe it, but so far it's nowhere in sight. If Trump falls because of this it will be because of his reaction to the witchhunt (for example telling a lie about something), not because there's any substance to the charges.

And I am not dismissing information. You are the one doing that. Why are you saying nothing about the fact that the "17 intelligence agencies" mantra that was repeated thousands of times by the establishment has been exposed as a lie? Not a mistake, but a lie. The politicians and journalists LIED to you about that. That is not a small point. It tells you something fundamental about the establishment. When it comes to foreign policy in particular they are one big echo chamber of propaganda. There is no way that lie could've been taken seriously if they were not wilful collaborators in deception. WikiLeaks called out that lie IMMEDIATELY and pointed out how easy it was to disprove, so why did the rest of the media and politicians go on repeating it?

This whole conspiracy theory is based around an alledged hack of the DNC, which has itself never been proven. Indeed, kool aid drinkers like yourself completely ignored that when the ICA released its report designed to bolster this story they included this sentence... "judgments are not intended to imply that we have proof that shows something to be a fact.” That sentence is absolutely crucial, yet media reports totally missed it. No intelligence agency has ever said the DNC hack happened. They've said that in their judgement they believe it happened. Yet if it did happen they wouldn't be talking about "belief". They're talking about "belief" because they have no evidence.



Do you ever hear Rachel Maddow pointing out the things that I'm pointing out here? Of course not, because she's too busy playing you for a fool. The whole establishment is hoodwinking you. Dwight D. Eisenhower would understand perfectly.

[Edited 9/17/17 5:28am]



Thank you Wile E- we should only listen to you because you know all , and the rest of us are just fools easily deceived by the corporate propaganda media machine...
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Reply #22 posted 09/18/17 7:50am

poppys

Mover thinks if he keeps writing lots of words and includes enough insults to Americans, we will see the light. I read his (and others) posts for months before I got sick of the constant US bashing and clapped back. If we went on a British musician's website and talked smack about British politics & people in every single post, I doubt we would last very long. Now we are being scolded for saying Russkies, lol, even though we're supposed to take every abusive remark hurled at us in stride.

The real strange thing is, their constant bashing of HRC and other Democrats, and complete denial that Russia needs to be investigated, puts them in the trumper basket along with others here that are the least progressive of all. Except they love Bernie, an independent that caucuses with Dems. They don't even get that we would have voted for him if he was nominated, smh.

Kick the old-school joints. For the true funk soldiers.
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Reply #23 posted 09/18/17 8:30am

jjhunsecker

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poppys said:

Mover thinks if he keeps writing lots of words and includes enough insults to Americans, we will see the light. I read his (and others) posts for months before I got sick of the constant US bashing and clapped back. If we went on a British musician's website and talked smack about British politics & people in every single post, I doubt we would last very long. Now we are being scolded for saying Russkies, lol, even though we're supposed to take every abusive remark hurled at us in stride.

The real strange thing is, their constant bashing of HRC and other Democrats, and complete denial that Russia needs to be investigated, puts them in the trumper basket along with others here that are the least progressive of all. Except they love Bernie, an independent that caucuses with Dems. They don't even get that we would have voted for him if he was nominated, smh.

His accusatory and condescending attitude, along with his certainty in his own 'intellectual superiority" and America bashing, completely turned me off. So I decided to move on.

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Reply #24 posted 09/18/17 8:45am

poppys

jjhunsecker said:

poppys said:

Mover thinks if he keeps writing lots of words and includes enough insults to Americans, we will see the light. I read his (and others) posts for months before I got sick of the constant US bashing and clapped back. If we went on a British musician's website and talked smack about British politics & people in every single post, I doubt we would last very long. Now we are being scolded for saying Russkies, lol, even though we're supposed to take every abusive remark hurled at us in stride.

The real strange thing is, their constant bashing of HRC and other Democrats, and complete denial that Russia needs to be investigated, puts them in the trumper basket along with others here that are the least progressive of all. Except they love Bernie, an independent that caucuses with Dems. They don't even get that we would have voted for him if he was nominated, smh.

His accusatory and condescending attitude, along with his certainty in his own 'intellectual superiority" and America bashing, completely turned me off. So I decided to move on.

Agree. It's the same shtick every time, not worth it. I've been to England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland more than once and I loved talking to people there, including politics. Mover has never been here and he is so hateful, I don't understand it but am definitely over it.

Kick the old-school joints. For the true funk soldiers.
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Reply #25 posted 09/19/17 3:12am

hausofmoi7

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poppys said:

Mover thinks if he keeps writing lots of words and includes enough insults to Americans, we will see the light. I read his (and others) posts for months before I got sick of the constant US bashing and clapped back. If we went on a British musician's website and talked smack about British politics & people in every single post, I doubt we would last very long. Now we are being scolded for saying Russkies, lol, even though we're supposed to take every abusive remark hurled at us in stride.
The real strange thing is, their constant bashing of HRC and other Democrats, and complete denial that Russia needs to be investigated, puts them in the trumper basket along with others here that are the least progressive of all. Except they love Bernie, an independent that caucuses with Dems. They don't even get that we would have voted for him if he was nominated, smh.


An African American musicians website.
Are you even of African descent? maybe non Africans also shouldn't be allowed to post here like non Americans as you suggest.
What a ridiculous thing for you to say.
Perhaps you are a non POC that is incapable of grasping why Hillary and Democrats have such strong opposition within America amongst many POC.
So I don't think simply being American gives you an innate understanding of the wide ranging issues that constitutes U.S politics. Particularly Domestic or foreign issues that don't directly affect you and that you always seem to be dismissing as non urgent and unimportant.

[Edited 9/19/17 6:27am]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #26 posted 09/19/17 6:35am

hausofmoi7

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Majority of Americans don't even agree or support their countries politics and agenda.
The fact that you personally take criticism of U.S foreign policy that kills millions of people around the world as an offensive personal attack is really questionable.



.
[Edited 9/19/17 6:42am]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #27 posted 09/19/17 7:40am

DiminutiveRock
er

avatar

jjhunsecker said:

poppys said:

Mover thinks if he keeps writing lots of words and includes enough insults to Americans, we will see the light. I read his (and others) posts for months before I got sick of the constant US bashing and clapped back. If we went on a British musician's website and talked smack about British politics & people in every single post, I doubt we would last very long. Now we are being scolded for saying Russkies, lol, even though we're supposed to take every abusive remark hurled at us in stride.

The real strange thing is, their constant bashing of HRC and other Democrats, and complete denial that Russia needs to be investigated, puts them in the trumper basket along with others here that are the least progressive of all. Except they love Bernie, an independent that caucuses with Dems. They don't even get that we would have voted for him if he was nominated, smh.

His accusatory and condescending attitude, along with his certainty in his own 'intellectual superiority" and America bashing, completely turned me off. So I decided to move on.


yeahthat ALL that ^

"When you have people who don't know about science standing in denial of it and rising to power - that is a recipe for the complete dismantling of our informed democracy" - Neil de Grasse Tyson
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Reply #28 posted 09/19/17 10:02am

hausofmoi7

avatar

DiminutiveRocker said:



jjhunsecker said:




poppys said:


Mover thinks if he keeps writing lots of words and includes enough insults to Americans, we will see the light. I read his (and others) posts for months before I got sick of the constant US bashing and clapped back. If we went on a British musician's website and talked smack about British politics & people in every single post, I doubt we would last very long. Now we are being scolded for saying Russkies, lol, even though we're supposed to take every abusive remark hurled at us in stride.

The real strange thing is, their constant bashing of HRC and other Democrats, and complete denial that Russia needs to be investigated, puts them in the trumper basket along with others here that are the least progressive of all. Except they love Bernie, an independent that caucuses with Dems. They don't even get that we would have voted for him if he was nominated, smh.



His accusatory and condescending attitude, along with his certainty in his own 'intellectual superiority" and America bashing, completely turned me off. So I decided to move on.




yeahthat ALL that ^



The fact that you personally take criticism of U.S foreign policy that kills millions of people around the world as an offensive personal attack is really questionable.
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #29 posted 09/19/17 10:43am

hausofmoi7

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This is the pervasive world view outside of the U.S.
*intresting to note Americans voters placed America in third place, even many Americans agree.


US is the greatest threat to world peace: poll


http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4531824

There’s really no way to sugarcoat it: The rest of world believes that the United States is the country that poses the greatest threat to world peace, beating out all challengers by a wide margin.

This is the conclusion of a massive world opinion poll conducted by Win/Gallup International and released at the close of 2013. The poll, which was first conducted in 1977, asked over 66,000 thousand people across 65 countries this year a variety of questions about the world, including which country they would most like to call home, whether or not the world is becoming a generally better place and which country poses the greatest threat to world peace.

The U.S. was voted the biggest threat by far, garnering 24 percent of the vote. Pakistan was a very distant second with 8 percent, followed by China (6 percent) and Afghanistan (5 percent).

Perhaps not surprisingly, Americans had a slightly different view of the international troublemakers, naming Iran the top threat. Yet while Afghanistan garnered the second-most votes among American respondents, they also voted the U.S. among the most threatening nations — in an unenviable veritable tie for third place with North Korea.

Interestingly, the U.S. was also the country to which people around the world would most like to move, if given the opportunity. Also, close to 50 percent of respondents expressed optimism about the future, reporting that they are more positive about 2014 than they were for 2013.

“Despite an unstable economic situation, our happiness index is extremely high all over the world except in Europe,” Jean-Marc Leger, President of WIN/Gallup International Association, said in a statement. “Moreover people think that 2014 will be better than 2013. Optimism is back in the world.”
[Edited 9/19/17 10:51am]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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