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Reply #60 posted 05/15/17 11:28am

maplenpg

midnightmover said:

deebee said:

^^ What will happen to the NHS is one of the scariest things about the prospect of five years of Tory rule, especially with the predicted whopping majority. It seems entirely imaginable to me, for example, that in the next five years they'll introduce a charge to see a GP, just like happens with the dentists now, thus symbolically driving the knife into the ideological basis of the NHS. I read a few months back about polling that said a large proportion of people more or less expect that now, and kind of passively accept it. People seem to be taking a defeated, fatalistic approach to such things these days - but, really, there should be riots on the streets.

The public has been worn down with propaganda. Case in point: the state-funded Channel 4 has a series at the moment called "Confessions of a Junior Doctor". I haven't been watching it, but I caught a few minutes of it two weeks ago. The very last words of the program were the doctor saying something like "It can't go on like this. Something has got to change".

This is what they did with British Rail in the 80s. They ran it down for years as a pretext for privatization. And now the NHS is going the same way. The Health and Social Care Act of 2012 was a vital part of the process. The Liberal Democrats should never be allowed to forget the role they played in that.

Agreed. But I do think Corbyn has shot himself in the foot by declaring tax on earners over £80,000. There will be a lot of doctors who might have voted labour but might now look elsewhere.

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Reply #61 posted 05/15/17 1:33pm

deebee

avatar

DiminutiveRocker said:

deebee said:

^^ What will happen to the NHS is one of the scariest things about the prospect of five years of Tory rule, especially with the predicted whopping majority. It seems entirely imaginable to me, for example, that in the next five years they'll introduce a charge to see a GP, just like happens with the dentists now, thus symbolically driving the knife into the ideological basis of the NHS. I read a few months back about polling that said a large proportion of people more or less expect that now, and kind of passively accept it. People seem to be taking a defeated, fatalistic approach to such things these days - but, really, there should be riots on the streets.


This is some scary shit, DB.

Yeah, it's worrying. You can feel the health service 'creaking' at the moment, if you use it. And lots of other auxilliary support services at the local level have been cut under the auspices of austerity, so it's taking a lot of strain. I think it's true that the next step is to invite in (further) private funding, roll out charges, etc. It would be good to think that people would be militant in their opposition to that (the veteran socialist MP Tony Benn always said people would take to the streets if a government ever tried it), but I do wonder now if people are too demoralised and misled to fight back.

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #62 posted 05/15/17 2:02pm

deebee

avatar

maplenpg said:

deebee said:

^^ What will happen to the NHS is one of the scariest things about the prospect of five years of Tory rule, especially with the predicted whopping majority. It seems entirely imaginable to me, for example, that in the next five years they'll introduce a charge to see a GP, just like happens with the dentists now, thus symbolically driving the knife into the ideological basis of the NHS. I read a few months back about polling that said a large proportion of people more or less expect that now, and kind of passively accept it. People seem to be taking a defeated, fatalistic approach to such things these days - but, really, there should be riots on the streets.

As always Deebee you are absolutely right. Many are resigned to the collapse of the NHS, or certainly that the NHS in its current form will not survive. There is already a private GP service in Dorset - I think we can expect to see more of them under Tory rule. Of course a charge to visit your GP is going to, in some instances, discourage people from wanting to check minor worries out. The problem with that is that minor worries (such as going to the toilet more frequently, or a small lump under the armpit) can often be an early sign of something more serious, and could therefore be more costly in the long term for the NHS who face the prospect of conditions not being diagnosed until they are more advanced.



[Edited 5/13/17 23:41pm]

Indeed. Medical experts are always emphasising the importance of early detection, hence the reason why screening programmes for certain serious illnesses are desirable. It will further harden the already existing link between class and quality of health - and, indeed, life expectancy - as other cuts to local services do the same for quality of life more generally.

As you say, though, privatisation has been creeping in already. I'm registered as an NHS patient at my local dentist, and I noticed they were charging me £32 to see the hygienist (for a 20 min appointment!), though I usually get charged the lower rate for a regular appointment (as a result of earlier waves of creeping privatisation). Why?, I asked them. "Oh, you can't get hygienist appointments on the NHS now", they said, "at least not here." So, gradually, they take a little more of what was once ours. I can easily see that happening with other services.

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #63 posted 05/15/17 2:10pm

deebee

avatar

midnightmover said:

deebee said:

^^ What will happen to the NHS is one of the scariest things about the prospect of five years of Tory rule, especially with the predicted whopping majority. It seems entirely imaginable to me, for example, that in the next five years they'll introduce a charge to see a GP, just like happens with the dentists now, thus symbolically driving the knife into the ideological basis of the NHS. I read a few months back about polling that said a large proportion of people more or less expect that now, and kind of passively accept it. People seem to be taking a defeated, fatalistic approach to such things these days - but, really, there should be riots on the streets.

The public has been worn down with propaganda. Case in point: the state-funded Channel 4 has a series at the moment called "Confessions of a Junior Doctor". I haven't been watching it, but I caught a few minutes of it two weeks ago. The very last words of the program were the doctor saying something like "It can't go on like this. Something has got to change".

This is what they did with British Rail in the 80s. They ran it down for years as a pretext for privatization. And now the NHS is going the same way. The Health and Social Care Act of 2012 was a vital part of the process. The Liberal Democrats should never be allowed to forget the role they played in that.

Yes, I recall a meme of Uncle Noam....



...and it's true: you hear people complaining all the time about the NHS now. Less so, the government that got it to that state. So, when it's announced that, well, 'we' have no money, and there's some nice investors that want to give us some, and it's only a small part of that service (at this point), well, maybe people will acquiesce. Certainly, the left-wing backlash one might've hoped would emerge hasn't exactly been overwhelming as of yet.

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #64 posted 05/15/17 2:25pm

2freaky4church
1

avatar

They also use the term jobs when they should use the correct term: profits.

"2freaky is a complete stud." DJ
"2freaky is very down." 2Elijah.
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Reply #65 posted 05/16/17 1:56pm

maplenpg

midnightmover said:

deebee said:

^^ What will happen to the NHS is one of the scariest things about the prospect of five years of Tory rule, especially with the predicted whopping majority. It seems entirely imaginable to me, for example, that in the next five years they'll introduce a charge to see a GP, just like happens with the dentists now, thus symbolically driving the knife into the ideological basis of the NHS. I read a few months back about polling that said a large proportion of people more or less expect that now, and kind of passively accept it. People seem to be taking a defeated, fatalistic approach to such things these days - but, really, there should be riots on the streets.

The public has been worn down with propaganda. Case in point: the state-funded Channel 4 has a series at the moment called "Confessions of a Junior Doctor". I haven't been watching it, but I caught a few minutes of it two weeks ago. The very last words of the program were the doctor saying something like "It can't go on like this. Something has got to change".

This is what they did with British Rail in the 80s. They ran it down for years as a pretext for privatization. And now the NHS is going the same way. The Health and Social Care Act of 2012 was a vital part of the process. The Liberal Democrats should never be allowed to forget the role they played in that.

From the Labour manifesto:


The next Labour government will reverse privatisation of our NHS and return our health service into expert public control. Labour will repeal the Health and Social Care Act that puts profits before patients, and make the NHS the preferred provider. We will reinstate the powers of the Secretary of State for Health to have overall responsibility for the NHS.

I just wish more people would take notice of how important this all is. In 2015 private companies won 40% of all contracts, yet 84% of people want a public NHS.

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Reply #66 posted 05/16/17 11:04pm

maplenpg

deebee said:

midnightmover said:

The public has been worn down with propaganda. Case in point: the state-funded Channel 4 has a series at the moment called "Confessions of a Junior Doctor". I haven't been watching it, but I caught a few minutes of it two weeks ago. The very last words of the program were the doctor saying something like "It can't go on like this. Something has got to change".

This is what they did with British Rail in the 80s. They ran it down for years as a pretext for privatization. And now the NHS is going the same way. The Health and Social Care Act of 2012 was a vital part of the process. The Liberal Democrats should never be allowed to forget the role they played in that.

Yes, I recall a meme of Uncle Noam....



...and it's true: you hear people complaining all the time about the NHS now. Less so, the government that got it to that state. So, when it's announced that, well, 'we' have no money, and there's some nice investors that want to give us some, and it's only a small part of that service (at this point), well, maybe people will acquiesce. Certainly, the left-wing backlash one might've hoped would emerge hasn't exactly been overwhelming as of yet.

I think the backlash in the short term will manifest itself in the form of strike action. Whether the public get on board or not remains to be seen. I'm still amazed Hunt has his job after the junior doctor scandal. I know nurses are ready to strike and I believe headteachers are ready too. Teachers and other NHS staff could easily join them. I think the emergency services are getting a rough ride at the minute as well regarding pay and pensions. As far as protests against privitization - I think it's being drip-fed so that the protests won't begin until it is too late and virgincare (or insert other name) is already established. Really there should be an outcry over the politics of the last six years but there is none.

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Reply #67 posted 05/16/17 11:06pm

maplenpg

deebee said:

maplenpg said:

As always Deebee you are absolutely right. Many are resigned to the collapse of the NHS, or certainly that the NHS in its current form will not survive. There is already a private GP service in Dorset - I think we can expect to see more of them under Tory rule. Of course a charge to visit your GP is going to, in some instances, discourage people from wanting to check minor worries out. The problem with that is that minor worries (such as going to the toilet more frequently, or a small lump under the armpit) can often be an early sign of something more serious, and could therefore be more costly in the long term for the NHS who face the prospect of conditions not being diagnosed until they are more advanced.



[Edited 5/13/17 23:41pm]

Indeed. Medical experts are always emphasising the importance of early detection, hence the reason why screening programmes for certain serious illnesses are desirable. It will further harden the already existing link between class and quality of health - and, indeed, life expectancy - as other cuts to local services do the same for quality of life more generally.

As you say, though, privatisation has been creeping in already. I'm registered as an NHS patient at my local dentist, and I noticed they were charging me £32 to see the hygienist (for a 20 min appointment!), though I usually get charged the lower rate for a regular appointment (as a result of earlier waves of creeping privatisation). Why?, I asked them. "Oh, you can't get hygienist appointments on the NHS now", they said, "at least not here." So, gradually, they take a little more of what was once ours. I can easily see that happening with other services.

And dental health is at its worst level for decades. I wonder why that is?

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Reply #68 posted 05/18/17 5:14pm

SquirrelMeat

avatar

maplenpg said:

midnightmover said:

The public has been worn down with propaganda. Case in point: the state-funded Channel 4 has a series at the moment called "Confessions of a Junior Doctor". I haven't been watching it, but I caught a few minutes of it two weeks ago. The very last words of the program were the doctor saying something like "It can't go on like this. Something has got to change".

This is what they did with British Rail in the 80s. They ran it down for years as a pretext for privatization. And now the NHS is going the same way. The Health and Social Care Act of 2012 was a vital part of the process. The Liberal Democrats should never be allowed to forget the role they played in that.

From the Labour manifesto:


The next Labour government will reverse privatisation of our NHS and return our health service into expert public control. Labour will repeal the Health and Social Care Act that puts profits before patients, and make the NHS the preferred provider. We will reinstate the powers of the Secretary of State for Health to have overall responsibility for the NHS.

I just wish more people would take notice of how important this all is. In 2015 private companies won 40% of all contracts, yet 84% of people want a public NHS.


The private sector are often demonised. 'Expert public control' doesn't exist. I now work in it and its a total mess. It is hugely inefficient compared to most of the private sector. The tipping point is if the private sector make excessive profit at the expense of service.

Labour like to make the private sector the bogeyman, but the reality is, if you replaced it with direct public sector control, the addition costs would outstrip the profits. Not it all cases, but certainly in the majority.

.
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Reply #69 posted 05/19/17 11:44pm

midnightmover

SquirrelMeat said:

maplenpg said:

From the Labour manifesto:


The next Labour government will reverse privatisation of our NHS and return our health service into expert public control. Labour will repeal the Health and Social Care Act that puts profits before patients, and make the NHS the preferred provider. We will reinstate the powers of the Secretary of State for Health to have overall responsibility for the NHS.

I just wish more people would take notice of how important this all is. In 2015 private companies won 40% of all contracts, yet 84% of people want a public NHS.


The private sector are often demonised. 'Expert public control' doesn't exist. I now work in it and its a total mess. It is hugely inefficient compared to most of the private sector. The tipping point is if the private sector make excessive profit at the expense of service.

Labour like to make the private sector the bogeyman, but the reality is, if you replaced it with direct public sector control, the addition costs would outstrip the profits. Not it all cases, but certainly in the majority.

Amazing how you type out stereotypical right wing bullshit like this on every issue and then pretend to be politically neutral. I can only assume that as a posh relatively well off person you think you look a little selfish and callous to just simply say that you support the ideology that best protects your priviledge so instead you go through this ridiculous charade of pretending that you're neither right wing or left wing. Posts like this make a mockery of that claim.

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Reply #70 posted 05/19/17 11:57pm

midnightmover

deebee said:

midnightmover said:

The public has been worn down with propaganda. Case in point: the state-funded Channel 4 has a series at the moment called "Confessions of a Junior Doctor". I haven't been watching it, but I caught a few minutes of it two weeks ago. The very last words of the program were the doctor saying something like "It can't go on like this. Something has got to change".

This is what they did with British Rail in the 80s. They ran it down for years as a pretext for privatization. And now the NHS is going the same way. The Health and Social Care Act of 2012 was a vital part of the process. The Liberal Democrats should never be allowed to forget the role they played in that.

Yes, I recall a meme of Uncle Noam....



...and it's true: you hear people complaining all the time about the NHS now. Less so, the government that got it to that state. So, when it's announced that, well, 'we' have no money, and there's some nice investors that want to give us some, and it's only a small part of that service (at this point), well, maybe people will acquiesce. Certainly, the left-wing backlash one might've hoped would emerge hasn't exactly been overwhelming as of yet.

Seven years ago patient satisfaction levels on the NHS were sky high. It only took 4 or 5 years of Tory rule to send them plummeting.

And as another example of the orchestrated campaign, the state funded Channel 4 have another series running in a prime time slot at the moment called "NHS: 2 Billion a Week & Counting" which is all about what should get cut and what shouldn't. The public is being programmed to simply accept a depleted NHS. Then when they can't take anymore the profiteers will pounce and bam, probably the best health care system in the world will be a thing of the past (it already is of course but at least it's reversible at the moment).

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Reply #71 posted 05/20/17 5:00am

maplenpg

SquirrelMeat said:

maplenpg said:

From the Labour manifesto:


The next Labour government will reverse privatisation of our NHS and return our health service into expert public control. Labour will repeal the Health and Social Care Act that puts profits before patients, and make the NHS the preferred provider. We will reinstate the powers of the Secretary of State for Health to have overall responsibility for the NHS.

I just wish more people would take notice of how important this all is. In 2015 private companies won 40% of all contracts, yet 84% of people want a public NHS.


The private sector are often demonised. 'Expert public control' doesn't exist. I now work in it and its a total mess. It is hugely inefficient compared to most of the private sector. The tipping point is if the private sector make excessive profit at the expense of service.

Labour like to make the private sector the bogeyman, but the reality is, if you replaced it with direct public sector control, the addition costs would outstrip the profits. Not it all cases, but certainly in the majority.

I'll be less harsh than MM as I want to encourage debate in this thread and personal attacks do nothing to further debate and discussion. I work in the public sector and have spent a larger proportion of my life in the private sector. There is no doubt which is better. But that is because the private sector uses the funds that it needs to in order to turn a profit. The profit is the only focus - not the care, not the communication; just the profit. Where I work now has just announced yet another set of cutbacks and redundancies. How can it possibly provide a better service with even fewer staff and much fewer resources? On top of this all infastructure funding has been stopped causing the place to literally be crumbling around us. What is happening is that a massive bill is growing larger and larger and larger each year and cutting staff should not be the way to pay for building repairs etc... So, to answer your point - I believe 'Expert public control' can exist - it just needs the funds to enable it to do so. There is no doubt these are being deliberately withheld by the Tory government post 2010.



But for me, the public/private argument has been overshadowed by the Tory manifesto which presupposes that Tory voters are still going to vote Tory even when faced with the blunt fact that they may lose their home should require care in their final years. Frankly, this turns my stomach and the aging population, many of whom worked tirelessly to own their property or to be able to leave something for the next generation (who frankly need all the help they can get), are faced with the grim reality that getting a long term illness such as dementia, could ultimately cost them everything they ever worked for. What a shitty lottery to have to be a part of. Expect more trips to Switzerland and more suicide by overdose (which will remain unreported as dementia is blamed for them taking too many tablets).



Also I am disgusted by the reversal of free school dinners for all infants (which ensures every child has access to at least one healthy nutritional meal a day). I disagree with this on two levels - first that as a working family myself with infant age twins, that not only has it been a godsend whilst we live on the breadline and struggle day to day, but also because we don't always have time to cook a 'proper' meal in the evening as we are working (beans on toast is becoming quite a staple). But more than myself and my family, there are hundreds of thousands of kids who do not get fed properly, who will revert back to a white bread sandwich, crisps and a chocolate bar, who will then become obese, which in turn is already costing the government millions. At least by offering free school meals we are ensuring that kids have access to vegetables at least once a day. Surely every infant deserves that?



I'm going to have a dig a Corbyn whilst I'm on a rant. Having watched the ITV debate the other night, Corbyn missed a trick by not being part of it. Lib Dem and Greens were very agreeable (almost too much so) and many of the policies Corbyn agrees with too. I believe this would have lifted his popularity and cemented him as a real opponent. I'm quite angry with him for missing that opportunity.


Sorry for the rant, but the 'demons' are not the private sector, who wait like vultures ready to devour flesh whenever possible - the 'demons' are the Tories who are starving the public sector and and then throwing their emaciated carcusses out for the vultures to feast on.

[Edited 5/20/17 5:01am]

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Reply #72 posted 05/24/17 7:22pm

SquirrelMeat

avatar

midnightmover said:

SquirrelMeat said:


The private sector are often demonised. 'Expert public control' doesn't exist. I now work in it and its a total mess. It is hugely inefficient compared to most of the private sector. The tipping point is if the private sector make excessive profit at the expense of service.

Labour like to make the private sector the bogeyman, but the reality is, if you replaced it with direct public sector control, the addition costs would outstrip the profits. Not it all cases, but certainly in the majority.

Amazing how you type out stereotypical right wing bullshit like this on every issue and then pretend to be politically neutral. I can only assume that as a posh relatively well off person you think you look a little selfish and callous to just simply say that you support the ideology that best protects your priviledge so instead you go through this ridiculous charade of pretending that you're neither right wing or left wing. Posts like this make a mockery of that claim.

Are you for real? I don’t pretend to be anything, and I certainly don’t hold some secret torch for the right wing, but judging by your constant digs, I’m guessing your idea of ‘stereotype’ is anyone who doesn’t see things through your own ideological prism.

I’m now posh? Lol. You need to meet my family. I was born, working class in Edmonton, London. Son of Irish immigrants. Have I done well? I like to think so. I knuckled down and didn’t get indoctrinated into the pseudo progressiveness sausage factory further education system. Not that I should need to explain my background. You seem like the type of person who would rather make things up to suit an agenda.

I’m guessing (and note here, I don’t label like you), that you think the ‘right wing’ are evil, and the left wing have some exclusiveness on caring? I’m sure the majority of right, or certainly Centre right supporters care, they are just consider themselves more realistic in regard to how you fund that care.

I suggest you go re-read the posts. If you believe some strange conspiracy theory that ‘right wingers’ spend their time on threads pretending to be something else, I think your own ideology has taken such a hold, it’s creating paranoia.

.
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Reply #73 posted 05/24/17 7:35pm

SquirrelMeat

avatar

maplenpg said:

SquirrelMeat said:


The private sector are often demonised. 'Expert public control' doesn't exist. I now work in it and its a total mess. It is hugely inefficient compared to most of the private sector. The tipping point is if the private sector make excessive profit at the expense of service.

Labour like to make the private sector the bogeyman, but the reality is, if you replaced it with direct public sector control, the addition costs would outstrip the profits. Not it all cases, but certainly in the majority.

I'll be less harsh than MM as I want to encourage debate in this thread and personal attacks do nothing to further debate and discussion. I work in the public sector and have spent a larger proportion of my life in the private sector. There is no doubt which is better. But that is because the private sector uses the funds that it needs to in order to turn a profit. The profit is the only focus - not the care, not the communication; just the profit. Where I work now has just announced yet another set of cutbacks and redundancies. How can it possibly provide a better service with even fewer staff and much fewer resources? On top of this all infastructure funding has been stopped causing the place to literally be crumbling around us. What is happening is that a massive bill is growing larger and larger and larger each year and cutting staff should not be the way to pay for building repairs etc... So, to answer your point - I believe 'Expert public control' can exist - it just needs the funds to enable it to do so. There is no doubt these are being deliberately withheld by the Tory government post 2010.



But for me, the public/private argument has been overshadowed by the Tory manifesto which presupposes that Tory voters are still going to vote Tory even when faced with the blunt fact that they may lose their home should require care in their final years. Frankly, this turns my stomach and the aging population, many of whom worked tirelessly to own their property or to be able to leave something for the next generation (who frankly need all the help they can get), are faced with the grim reality that getting a long term illness such as dementia, could ultimately cost them everything they ever worked for. What a shitty lottery to have to be a part of. Expect more trips to Switzerland and more suicide by overdose (which will remain unreported as dementia is blamed for them taking too many tablets).



Also I am disgusted by the reversal of free school dinners for all infants (which ensures every child has access to at least one healthy nutritional meal a day). I disagree with this on two levels - first that as a working family myself with infant age twins, that not only has it been a godsend whilst we live on the breadline and struggle day to day, but also because we don't always have time to cook a 'proper' meal in the evening as we are working (beans on toast is becoming quite a staple). But more than myself and my family, there are hundreds of thousands of kids who do not get fed properly, who will revert back to a white bread sandwich, crisps and a chocolate bar, who will then become obese, which in turn is already costing the government millions. At least by offering free school meals we are ensuring that kids have access to vegetables at least once a day. Surely every infant deserves that?



I'm going to have a dig a Corbyn whilst I'm on a rant. Having watched the ITV debate the other night, Corbyn missed a trick by not being part of it. Lib Dem and Greens were very agreeable (almost too much so) and many of the policies Corbyn agrees with too. I believe this would have lifted his popularity and cemented him as a real opponent. I'm quite angry with him for missing that opportunity.


Sorry for the rant, but the 'demons' are not the private sector, who wait like vultures ready to devour flesh whenever possible - the 'demons' are the Tories who are starving the public sector and and then throwing their emaciated carcusses out for the vultures to feast on.

[Edited 5/20/17 5:01am]



Glad we can try and keep a civil debate on track. So many political threads get hyjacked by ideologists that can't seem past the end of their nose.

I think we actually agree on 90% of things, just differ on how to address them.

The whole 'Labour' Vs 'Tories' debate fascinates me.

The Tory ‘we’ll take your expensive home to pay for social care’ is the best example.

Its text book left wing. May is trying to steal the centre left. The left’s response? ‘We’ll stop that, and protect the triple lock!’. Its text book right wing.


They are all happy to sell their soul.

In regards to free school meals, I'm torn. Do I agree with the idea? Of course. Should it be a priority for government spending when we are still running a deficit? Debatable. When does parent responsiblity become state responsiblity? What should we cut to pay for it?

The idea is sound, but so are libraries, police officers, nurses, social care, legal aid, roads, further education etc. But what gives without a magic money tree?

I have twins myself, and it was really tough, particularly around child care (they are 11 now, so I'm coming out of the worst years), but it was my choice. When I chose to have them, and its a fact that vegetables are cheaper than ready meals, who resposibility should it be to feed the children sensibly? I see it as mine. Me and my wife both took second jobs through the worst period.

My wife works at the local primary school. She sees parents send in children with cold McDonalds happy meals or choc and chrisp fests as a packed lunch on a daily basis. Is that lack of money or lack of parental responsibility?

I think we'll agree that the children come first, but like everything, should the state take on every burden at the wider tax payers expense when clearly there is a large element of 'parents' who expect the government/tax payer, to deal with it for them?

We hear lots of heartstring rhetoric about the only 'hot meal in their tummy', but when did blanket wide parenting become the responsibility of the state? Surely it should be means tested, and certainly not made a universal expenditure when we lack the funds for the disabled or basic public services?

.


[Edited 5/24/17 20:19pm]

.
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Reply #74 posted 05/25/17 1:42pm

maplenpg

SquirrelMeat said:

maplenpg said:

I'll be less harsh than MM as I want to encourage debate in this thread and personal attacks do nothing to further debate and discussion. I work in the public sector and have spent a larger proportion of my life in the private sector. There is no doubt which is better. But that is because the private sector uses the funds that it needs to in order to turn a profit. The profit is the only focus - not the care, not the communication; just the profit. Where I work now has just announced yet another set of cutbacks and redundancies. How can it possibly provide a better service with even fewer staff and much fewer resources? On top of this all infastructure funding has been stopped causing the place to literally be crumbling around us. What is happening is that a massive bill is growing larger and larger and larger each year and cutting staff should not be the way to pay for building repairs etc... So, to answer your point - I believe 'Expert public control' can exist - it just needs the funds to enable it to do so. There is no doubt these are being deliberately withheld by the Tory government post 2010.



But for me, the public/private argument has been overshadowed by the Tory manifesto which presupposes that Tory voters are still going to vote Tory even when faced with the blunt fact that they may lose their home should require care in their final years. Frankly, this turns my stomach and the aging population, many of whom worked tirelessly to own their property or to be able to leave something for the next generation (who frankly need all the help they can get), are faced with the grim reality that getting a long term illness such as dementia, could ultimately cost them everything they ever worked for. What a shitty lottery to have to be a part of. Expect more trips to Switzerland and more suicide by overdose (which will remain unreported as dementia is blamed for them taking too many tablets).



Also I am disgusted by the reversal of free school dinners for all infants (which ensures every child has access to at least one healthy nutritional meal a day). I disagree with this on two levels - first that as a working family myself with infant age twins, that not only has it been a godsend whilst we live on the breadline and struggle day to day, but also because we don't always have time to cook a 'proper' meal in the evening as we are working (beans on toast is becoming quite a staple). But more than myself and my family, there are hundreds of thousands of kids who do not get fed properly, who will revert back to a white bread sandwich, crisps and a chocolate bar, who will then become obese, which in turn is already costing the government millions. At least by offering free school meals we are ensuring that kids have access to vegetables at least once a day. Surely every infant deserves that?



I'm going to have a dig a Corbyn whilst I'm on a rant. Having watched the ITV debate the other night, Corbyn missed a trick by not being part of it. Lib Dem and Greens were very agreeable (almost too much so) and many of the policies Corbyn agrees with too. I believe this would have lifted his popularity and cemented him as a real opponent. I'm quite angry with him for missing that opportunity.


Sorry for the rant, but the 'demons' are not the private sector, who wait like vultures ready to devour flesh whenever possible - the 'demons' are the Tories who are starving the public sector and and then throwing their emaciated carcusses out for the vultures to feast on.

[Edited 5/20/17 5:01am]



Glad we can try and keep a civil debate on track. So many political threads get hyjacked by ideologists that can't seem past the end of their nose.

I think we actually agree on 90% of things, just differ on how to address them.

The whole 'Labour' Vs 'Tories' debate fascinates me.

The Tory ‘we’ll take your expensive home to pay for social care’ is the best example.

Its text book left wing. May is trying to steal the centre left. The left’s response? ‘We’ll stop that, and protect the triple lock!’. Its text book right wing.


They are all happy to sell their soul.

In regards to free school meals, I'm torn. Do I agree with the idea? Of course. Should it be a priority for government spending when we are still running a deficit? Debatable. When does parent responsiblity become state responsiblity? What should we cut to pay for it?

The idea is sound, but so are libraries, police officers, nurses, social care, legal aid, roads, further education etc. But what gives without a magic money tree?

I have twins myself, and it was really tough, particularly around child care (they are 11 now, so I'm coming out of the worst years), but it was my choice. When I chose to have them, and its a fact that vegetables are cheaper than ready meals, who resposibility should it be to feed the children sensibly? I see it as mine. Me and my wife both took second jobs through the worst period.

My wife works at the local primary school. She sees parents send in children with cold McDonalds happy meals or choc and chrisp fests as a packed lunch on a daily basis. Is that lack of money or lack of parental responsibility?

I think we'll agree that the children come first, but like everything, should the state take on every burden at the wider tax payers expense when clearly there is a large element of 'parents' who expect the government/tax payer, to deal with it for them?

We hear lots of heartstring rhetoric about the only 'hot meal in their tummy', but when did blanket wide parenting become the responsibility of the state? Surely it should be means tested, and certainly not made a universal expenditure when we lack the funds for the disabled or basic public services?

.


[Edited 5/24/17 20:19pm]

I fully agree that political parties sell their souls for votes. That is why I've never been really loyal to any one particular party (though I have supported Lib Dem a fair bit over the years). But I think that voters also sell themselves down the river in order to stay 'loyal' to 'their' party regardless of what's on offer.



I have to say I was very, very happy to see May squirming about her u-turn on potentially losing your home to pay for care home fees, in a way I was saddened that the horrific events in Manchester gave her a bit of a free pass. I'm saddened that my reasonably well off, Tory-voting, parents have already contacted a lawyer to see how they might get around it, having saved all their life to leave us children some inheritance in the form of their house. The savvy will avoid the tax but it will take advantage of those who cannot afford legal fees. As usual with Tory policies, the wealthier will remain wealthy whilst the less wealthy or less legally-minded lose out.



I get angered by the cutting the deficit argument. For me it is not about passing over responsibilty from the parent to the government but moreover recognising that many, may children eat a packed lunch which is often far less healthy than a cooked lunch. As you state, the things parents send their children to school with is astounding (we don't have a McDonalds anywhere within 20 miles so fortunately cold happy meals don't happen round here. Yuk). Of course you can judge the parents, and rightly so, but how do we begin to change their learned behaviour? Surely that responsibility lies with the state (which incidently has made huge strides in changing the learned behaviour with regards sexuality and race)? And whilst mine and your children eat healthily, what about Johnny Smith (fictional name) whose parents are addicted to drugs and who is given chips and ready meals every night? Should we just shrug our shoulders and say, "Bad luck Johnny, you got the shit card in life" or should we, as a state, try to ensure he has a proper meal at least once a day?



"Remember the non-shrinking deficit Johnny, it matters more than you do." Is that really what Britain stands for?



I'm glad you and your wife were able to take second jobs to afford childcare. I already work around 50-60 hours a week (paid for 38) and my husband is self-employed and so does the school runs whilst working while the kids are at school and evenings. We have no family that we can lean on for help with childcare. We have no spare money to pay for childcare. We hardly see each other or the kids as it is so the thought of taking on even more work leaves me cold. I genuinely believe that many public sector workers in the NHS, emergency services and education are under-valued and under-paid. Maybe paying us what we deserve would entail a happier workforce and less services in crisis, thereby shrinking the deficit through loyal and happy workers. Surely that is better than continuing to invest in recruitment for people that leave the job after a couple of years? I'll give you an example: if, as a physics graduate, you decide to train as a teacher, then you recieve around £25,000 bursary to do so. You might get a student loan on top of this, therefore whilst training you might recieve around £40,000. Unfortunately when you qualify, you will only be paid £22,500 and that will be reduced when student loans take their share. And you can also only expect a 1% yearly wage rise. Is it any wonder people train then leave? The balance is all wrong, we need to reward loyal staff and give proper pay for important jobs.



Anyway, enough of my ranting, I'm shattered, I just worked a 13 hr day. I only get paid for 8, but still - I guess the saving is going towards paying the deficit eh wink






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Reply #75 posted 05/29/17 12:45pm

maplenpg

Anyone watching the Q&A on C4 or Sky?

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Reply #76 posted 05/29/17 1:14pm

Guitarhero

avatar

Voting Lib dems or the greens.

Love4OneAnother heart


Violence is never the answer Annteefa.
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Reply #77 posted 05/29/17 1:27pm

maplenpg

Guitarhero said:

Voting Lib dems or the greens.

How are you going to choose between them?

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Reply #78 posted 05/29/17 6:19pm

Perspective

SquirrelMeat said:

maplenpg said:

I'll be less harsh than MM as I want to encourage debate in this thread and personal attacks do nothing to further debate and discussion. I work in the public sector and have spent a larger proportion of my life in the private sector. There is no doubt which is better. But that is because the private sector uses the funds that it needs to in order to turn a profit. The profit is the only focus - not the care, not the communication; just the profit. Where I work now has just announced yet another set of cutbacks and redundancies. How can it possibly provide a better service with even fewer staff and much fewer resources? On top of this all infastructure funding has been stopped causing the place to literally be crumbling around us. What is happening is that a massive bill is growing larger and larger and larger each year and cutting staff should not be the way to pay for building repairs etc... So, to answer your point - I believe 'Expert public control' can exist - it just needs the funds to enable it to do so. There is no doubt these are being deliberately withheld by the Tory government post 2010.



But for me, the public/private argument has been overshadowed by the Tory manifesto which presupposes that Tory voters are still going to vote Tory even when faced with the blunt fact that they may lose their home should require care in their final years. Frankly, this turns my stomach and the aging population, many of whom worked tirelessly to own their property or to be able to leave something for the next generation (who frankly need all the help they can get), are faced with the grim reality that getting a long term illness such as dementia, could ultimately cost them everything they ever worked for. What a shitty lottery to have to be a part of. Expect more trips to Switzerland and more suicide by overdose (which will remain unreported as dementia is blamed for them taking too many tablets).



Also I am disgusted by the reversal of free school dinners for all infants (which ensures every child has access to at least one healthy nutritional meal a day). I disagree with this on two levels - first that as a working family myself with infant age twins, that not only has it been a godsend whilst we live on the breadline and struggle day to day, but also because we don't always have time to cook a 'proper' meal in the evening as we are working (beans on toast is becoming quite a staple). But more than myself and my family, there are hundreds of thousands of kids who do not get fed properly, who will revert back to a white bread sandwich, crisps and a chocolate bar, who will then become obese, which in turn is already costing the government millions. At least by offering free school meals we are ensuring that kids have access to vegetables at least once a day. Surely every infant deserves that?



I'm going to have a dig a Corbyn whilst I'm on a rant. Having watched the ITV debate the other night, Corbyn missed a trick by not being part of it. Lib Dem and Greens were very agreeable (almost too much so) and many of the policies Corbyn agrees with too. I believe this would have lifted his popularity and cemented him as a real opponent. I'm quite angry with him for missing that opportunity.


Sorry for the rant, but the 'demons' are not the private sector, who wait like vultures ready to devour flesh whenever possible - the 'demons' are the Tories who are starving the public sector and and then throwing their emaciated carcusses out for the vultures to feast on.

[Edited 5/20/17 5:01am]



Glad we can try and keep a civil debate on track. So many political threads get hyjacked by ideologists that can't seem past the end of their nose.

I think we actually agree on 90% of things, just differ on how to address them.

The whole 'Labour' Vs 'Tories' debate fascinates me.

The Tory ‘we’ll take your expensive home to pay for social care’ is the best example.

Its text book left wing. May is trying to steal the centre left. The left’s response? ‘We’ll stop that, and protect the triple lock!’. Its text book right wing.


They are all happy to sell their soul.

In regards to free school meals, I'm torn. Do I agree with the idea? Of course. Should it be a priority for government spending when we are still running a deficit? Debatable. When does parent responsiblity become state responsiblity? What should we cut to pay for it?

The idea is sound, but so are libraries, police officers, nurses, social care, legal aid, roads, further education etc. But what gives without a magic money tree?

I have twins myself, and it was really tough, particularly around child care (they are 11 now, so I'm coming out of the worst years), but it was my choice. When I chose to have them, and its a fact that vegetables are cheaper than ready meals, who resposibility should it be to feed the children sensibly? I see it as mine. Me and my wife both took second jobs through the worst period.

My wife works at the local primary school. She sees parents send in children with cold McDonalds happy meals or choc and chrisp fests as a packed lunch on a daily basis. Is that lack of money or lack of parental responsibility?

I think we'll agree that the children come first, but like everything, should the state take on every burden at the wider tax payers expense when clearly there is a large element of 'parents' who expect the government/tax payer, to deal with it for them?

We hear lots of heartstring rhetoric about the only 'hot meal in their tummy', but when did blanket wide parenting become the responsibility of the state? Surely it should be means tested, and certainly not made a universal expenditure when we lack the funds for the disabled or basic public services?

.


[Edited 5/24/17 20:19pm]

Reasonable discourse...and agree it ought to be about policy rather than ideology.

Our society is built on an adversarial system rather than inquisitorial - something that with the advent of the internet means rational policy has gone out of the window and now it is all about being opposites.

May was a shit-show as Home Secretary and Corbyn a staunch anti-establishment politician - both now papering over their history.

As far as children (I have none)... I do believe in a "village raises a child"...and would rather pay to know all kids have decent school meals - as I would they all are healthy...and housed...and clothed/

Yes, those that chose to have children bear the brunt of it - mainly to ensure their well-being, but if they are neglected...then wider society has both failed and endures the consequence.

We need to have both an incentive for those to reap the rewards for their hard work and also to ensure those unable, to not live in dire straits.

No child needs to live on cold McDs and no Philip Green needs two yachts...No person should be begrudged the achievement of their hard-work or risk...and no person ought to be denied opportunity.

None truly offer anything.

One good thing out of this election.... Nuttall has exposed the racist crap UKIP has been peddling for years.


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Reply #79 posted 05/30/17 12:13am

maplenpg

Perspective said:

SquirrelMeat said:



Glad we can try and keep a civil debate on track. So many political threads get hyjacked by ideologists that can't seem past the end of their nose.

I think we actually agree on 90% of things, just differ on how to address them.

The whole 'Labour' Vs 'Tories' debate fascinates me.

The Tory ‘we’ll take your expensive home to pay for social care’ is the best example.

Its text book left wing. May is trying to steal the centre left. The left’s response? ‘We’ll stop that, and protect the triple lock!’. Its text book right wing.


They are all happy to sell their soul.

In regards to free school meals, I'm torn. Do I agree with the idea? Of course. Should it be a priority for government spending when we are still running a deficit? Debatable. When does parent responsiblity become state responsiblity? What should we cut to pay for it?

The idea is sound, but so are libraries, police officers, nurses, social care, legal aid, roads, further education etc. But what gives without a magic money tree?

I have twins myself, and it was really tough, particularly around child care (they are 11 now, so I'm coming out of the worst years), but it was my choice. When I chose to have them, and its a fact that vegetables are cheaper than ready meals, who resposibility should it be to feed the children sensibly? I see it as mine. Me and my wife both took second jobs through the worst period.

My wife works at the local primary school. She sees parents send in children with cold McDonalds happy meals or choc and chrisp fests as a packed lunch on a daily basis. Is that lack of money or lack of parental responsibility?

I think we'll agree that the children come first, but like everything, should the state take on every burden at the wider tax payers expense when clearly there is a large element of 'parents' who expect the government/tax payer, to deal with it for them?

We hear lots of heartstring rhetoric about the only 'hot meal in their tummy', but when did blanket wide parenting become the responsibility of the state? Surely it should be means tested, and certainly not made a universal expenditure when we lack the funds for the disabled or basic public services?

.


[Edited 5/24/17 20:19pm]

Reasonable discourse...and agree it ought to be about policy rather than ideology.

Our society is built on an adversarial system rather than inquisitorial - something that with the advent of the internet means rational policy has gone out of the window and now it is all about being opposites.

May was a shit-show as Home Secretary and Corbyn a staunch anti-establishment politician - both now papering over their history.

As far as children (I have none)... I do believe in a "village raises a child"...and would rather pay to know all kids have decent school meals - as I would they all are healthy...and housed...and clothed/

Yes, those that chose to have children bear the brunt of it - mainly to ensure their well-being, but if they are neglected...then wider society has both failed and endures the consequence.

We need to have both an incentive for those to reap the rewards for their hard work and also to ensure those unable, to not live in dire straits.

No child needs to live on cold McDs and no Philip Green needs two yachts...No person should be begrudged the achievement of their hard-work or risk...and no person ought to be denied opportunity.

None truly offer anything.

One good thing out of this election.... Nuttall has exposed the racist crap UKIP has been peddling for years.


Thank you for posting. I absolutely agree with the majority of what you say. To comment on a couple of points in particular. I agree that we need an incentive to reap the rewards for hard work but, in my opinion, that incentive should come in the form of buying yourself a home, or a nice car, or eating out from time to time at a nice restaurant. Many of us who work bloody hard in stressful jobs with high responsibility cannot afford these things and that cannot be right. Everyone ought to have the opportunity to own a home, that is why wages should rise in line with house prices and there should be a cap on the amount of houses any one person can own. To offer public sector workers only a 1% increase each year is insulting to those valuable workers in the NHS, Education and Emergency services. No wonder they are leaving in droves.

As for Phillip Green etc... I actually do think there should be rewards for working hard and that each can spend their money how they wish. However the line is drawn when their wealth is made on the exploitation of their workers, as is the case for Phillip Green, and Amazon, and Sports Direct etc... Especially those who are avoiding tax by using expensive lawyers to exploit the system. Play fair, Pay fair and no-one will begrudge you any luxuries that your hard work brings. The current government are also exploiting labour when, in real terms, many nurses, teachers, and policemen etc... are worse off now than they were ten years ago. To offer public sector workers only a 1% increase each year is insulting to those valuable workers in the NHS, Education and Emergency services. No wonder they are leaving in droves.

I honestly don't think any party will ever please everyone but I simply don't understand why anyone would vote for further loss of public services, for further declines in education (unless you are part of the priviledged few), for further loss of nurses, policemen and junior doctors, for fox-hunting to be re-introduced and for people to lose their home if they get dementia or need a care home facility when they are older. I just don't get it.

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Reply #80 posted 05/31/17 11:07pm

maplenpg

TV gold last night in the form of the leaders debate. May got a bashing. I'm warming to Farron, his closing speech was hilarious.
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Reply #81 posted 06/01/17 6:16pm

SquirrelMeat

avatar

maplenpg said:

Anyone watching the Q&A on C4 or Sky?


Did you watch it all? I was there.

If you look at row E (5), I'm the guy on the right end looking from the stage, in a grey/black jacket. There is a close up of my ugly mug several times, and there is a scene where I laugh at May being ridiculed by Paxman that appeared on BBC on Tues, again on 'This Week' tonight and I've even appeared on 3 seperate Labour propaganda video on facebook this week. Pretty amazing since I don't support them. Gotta laugh! lol

.
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Reply #82 posted 06/01/17 6:17pm

SquirrelMeat

avatar

maplenpg said:

TV gold last night in the form of the leaders debate. May got a bashing. I'm warming to Farron, his closing speech was hilarious.

Did you see the Farron interview on BBC tonight? He fell apart. Worst interview of all the 'leaders'.

.
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Reply #83 posted 06/01/17 10:09pm

maplenpg

SquirrelMeat said:



maplenpg said:


Anyone watching the Q&A on C4 or Sky?




Did you watch it all? I was there.

If you look at row E (5), I'm the guy on the right end looking from the stage, in a grey/black jacket. There is a close up of my ugly mug several times, and there is a scene where I laugh at May being ridiculed by Paxman that appeared on BBC on Tues, again on 'This Week' tonight and I've even appeared on 3 seperate Labour propaganda video on facebook this week. Pretty amazing since I don't support them. Gotta laugh! lol


Yes, I watched it all but I didn't record it to watch it back. How did you get tickets? I might be nosey now and try to find you smile
[Edited 6/1/17 22:16pm]
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Reply #84 posted 06/01/17 10:15pm

maplenpg

SquirrelMeat said:



maplenpg said:


TV gold last night in the form of the leaders debate. May got a bashing. I'm warming to Farron, his closing speech was hilarious.


Did you see the Farron interview on BBC tonight? He fell apart. Worst interview of all the 'leaders'.


No, I didn't see it. To be honest I've never really liked him much or thought he was the one to revive the party but he was brilliant on that debate. I'm not completely surprised to hear he fell apart the next day.
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Reply #85 posted 06/02/17 1:55am

maplenpg

maplenpg said:

SquirrelMeat said:


Did you watch it all? I was there.

If you look at row E (5), I'm the guy on the right end looking from the stage, in a grey/black jacket. There is a close up of my ugly mug several times, and there is a scene where I laugh at May being ridiculed by Paxman that appeared on BBC on Tues, again on 'This Week' tonight and I've even appeared on 3 seperate Labour propaganda video on facebook this week. Pretty amazing since I don't support them. Gotta laugh! lol

Yes, I watched it all but I didn't record it to watch it back. How did you get tickets? I might be nosey now and try to find you smile

I gave up trying to find you. Out of interest, what did you and/or your wife think about the primary school Q&A?

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Reply #86 posted 06/03/17 2:19am

midnightmover

SquirrelMeat said:

midnightmover said:

Amazing how you type out stereotypical right wing bullshit like this on every issue and then pretend to be politically neutral. I can only assume that as a posh relatively well off person you think you look a little selfish and callous to just simply say that you support the ideology that best protects your priviledge so instead you go through this ridiculous charade of pretending that you're neither right wing or left wing. Posts like this make a mockery of that claim.

Are you for real? I don’t pretend to be anything, and I certainly don’t hold some secret torch for the right wing, but judging by your constant digs, I’m guessing your idea of ‘stereotype’ is anyone who doesn’t see things through your own ideological prism.

I’m now posh? Lol. You need to meet my family. I was born, working class in Edmonton, London. Son of Irish immigrants. Have I done well? I like to think so. I knuckled down and didn’t get indoctrinated into the pseudo progressiveness sausage factory further education system. Not that I should need to explain my background. You seem like the type of person who would rather make things up to suit an agenda.

I’m guessing (and note here, I don’t label like you), that you think the ‘right wing’ are evil, and the left wing have some exclusiveness on caring? I’m sure the majority of right, or certainly Centre right supporters care, they are just consider themselves more realistic in regard to how you fund that care.

I suggest you go re-read the posts. If you believe some strange conspiracy theory that ‘right wingers’ spend their time on threads pretending to be something else, I think your own ideology has taken such a hold, it’s creating paranoia.

Dude, you're not talking to some newbie on here who hasn't read your posts a million times before. I've read enough of them to see that in every single debate you put forward right wing arguments and yet you always go out of your way (for some bizarre reason which I don't think even you understand) to stress that you are politically neutral. If you were genuinely neutral then you wouldn't be constantly repeating stereotypical right wing talking points all the time.

In this thread alone you have slagged off the public sector, signalled your intention to vote Tory and used the stereotypical right wing argument that things like social care, legal aid and libraries are all very nice but cannot be paid for without a "magic money tree" (note the sarcastic tone of that phrase, hardly the tone of someone who is politically neutral).

You are a classic "shy Tory" suffering from a chronic lack of self awareness. As for your poshness I'm only saying that because you have described yourself as having a posh accent and living in a classic middle England village. I've got nothing against posh people, but it's very easy for people who are doing well themselves to argue for policies that will hurt those less fortunate. In the same way that Western governments feel fine about sponsoring jihadists in the Middle East because it's other peoples' lives that will be ruined by such evil, not their own.

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Reply #87 posted 06/03/17 4:16am

maplenpg

midnightmover said:

SquirrelMeat said:

Are you for real? I don’t pretend to be anything, and I certainly don’t hold some secret torch for the right wing, but judging by your constant digs, I’m guessing your idea of ‘stereotype’ is anyone who doesn’t see things through your own ideological prism.

I’m now posh? Lol. You need to meet my family. I was born, working class in Edmonton, London. Son of Irish immigrants. Have I done well? I like to think so. I knuckled down and didn’t get indoctrinated into the pseudo progressiveness sausage factory further education system. Not that I should need to explain my background. You seem like the type of person who would rather make things up to suit an agenda.

I’m guessing (and note here, I don’t label like you), that you think the ‘right wing’ are evil, and the left wing have some exclusiveness on caring? I’m sure the majority of right, or certainly Centre right supporters care, they are just consider themselves more realistic in regard to how you fund that care.

I suggest you go re-read the posts. If you believe some strange conspiracy theory that ‘right wingers’ spend their time on threads pretending to be something else, I think your own ideology has taken such a hold, it’s creating paranoia.

Dude, you're not talking to some newbie on here who hasn't read your posts a million times before. I've read enough of them to see that in every single debate you put forward right wing arguments and yet you always go out of your way (for some bizarre reason which I don't think even you understand) to stress that you are politically neutral. If you were genuinely neutral then you wouldn't be constantly repeating stereotypical right wing talking points all the time.

In this thread alone you have slagged off the public sector, signalled your intention to vote Tory and used the stereotypical right wing argument that things like social care, legal aid and libraries are all very nice but cannot be paid for without a "magic money tree" (note the sarcastic tone of that phrase, hardly the tone of someone who is politically neutral).

You are a classic "shy Tory" suffering from a chronic lack of self awareness. As for your poshness I'm only saying that because you have described yourself as having a posh accent and living in a classic middle England village. I've got nothing against posh people, but it's very easy for people who are doing well themselves to argue for policies that will hurt those less fortunate. In the same way that Western governments feel fine about sponsoring jihadists in the Middle East because it's other peoples' lives that will be ruined by such evil, not their own.

Does it really matter? This is a debating forum, it would be a rubbish debate if it was only full of people who all thought the same and held the same beliefs. We learn more from those who are different from us than those who are the same. My parents are very right-wing, If I was rude to them just because of their beliefs we would probably not be speaking now. They think Thatcher was the best and can't understand my hate for her. But I quite enjoy winding them up and they quite enjoy winding me up and we accept each others differences. They are never going to change and neither am I. I enjoy hearing Squirrel's comments, as I do yours, There is room for constructive criticism without getting personal. Who cares whether Squirrel wears a label or not? Now, have you been watching the debates? Comments?

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Reply #88 posted 06/03/17 5:23am

midnightmover

maplenpg said:

midnightmover said:

Dude, you're not talking to some newbie on here who hasn't read your posts a million times before. I've read enough of them to see that in every single debate you put forward right wing arguments and yet you always go out of your way (for some bizarre reason which I don't think even you understand) to stress that you are politically neutral. If you were genuinely neutral then you wouldn't be constantly repeating stereotypical right wing talking points all the time.

In this thread alone you have slagged off the public sector, signalled your intention to vote Tory and used the stereotypical right wing argument that things like social care, legal aid and libraries are all very nice but cannot be paid for without a "magic money tree" (note the sarcastic tone of that phrase, hardly the tone of someone who is politically neutral).

You are a classic "shy Tory" suffering from a chronic lack of self awareness. As for your poshness I'm only saying that because you have described yourself as having a posh accent and living in a classic middle England village. I've got nothing against posh people, but it's very easy for people who are doing well themselves to argue for policies that will hurt those less fortunate. In the same way that Western governments feel fine about sponsoring jihadists in the Middle East because it's other peoples' lives that will be ruined by such evil, not their own.

Does it really matter? This is a debating forum, it would be a rubbish debate if it was only full of people who all thought the same and held the same beliefs. We learn more from those who are different from us than those who are the same. My parents are very right-wing, If I was rude to them just because of their beliefs we would probably not be speaking now. They think Thatcher was the best and can't understand my hate for her. But I quite enjoy winding them up and they quite enjoy winding me up and we accept each others differences. They are never going to change and neither am I. I enjoy hearing Squirrel's comments, as I do yours, There is room for constructive criticism without getting personal. Who cares whether Squirrel wears a label or not? Now, have you been watching the debates? Comments?

No, I haven't bothered watching the debates. It's all just theatre to me. I'm trying to detox from the news a little bit. There's a phrase Russell Brand (who - it will not surprise you to learn - SquirrelMeat hates with a passion) uses to describe the media. He says it's designed to keep you on a "lower frequency of consciousness". I know what he means. In some senses this forum does that too (innocently of course).

But mainstream political discourse is hard for me to swallow nowadays because it has so little to do with what is really happening. Right now we're in the middle of the first mass extinction event for 65 million years. It is the sixth one in the history of our planet. Others were caused by asteroids and things. This one is caused by us. Seems to me that's a pretty big deal. Yet you could watch the news every single day and never once even hear it mentioned.

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Reply #89 posted 06/03/17 11:36am

maplenpg

midnightmover said:

maplenpg said:

Does it really matter? This is a debating forum, it would be a rubbish debate if it was only full of people who all thought the same and held the same beliefs. We learn more from those who are different from us than those who are the same. My parents are very right-wing, If I was rude to them just because of their beliefs we would probably not be speaking now. They think Thatcher was the best and can't understand my hate for her. But I quite enjoy winding them up and they quite enjoy winding me up and we accept each others differences. They are never going to change and neither am I. I enjoy hearing Squirrel's comments, as I do yours, There is room for constructive criticism without getting personal. Who cares whether Squirrel wears a label or not? Now, have you been watching the debates? Comments?

No, I haven't bothered watching the debates. It's all just theatre to me. I'm trying to detox from the news a little bit. There's a phrase Russell Brand (who - it will not surprise you to learn - SquirrelMeat hates with a passion) uses to describe the media. He says it's designed to keep you on a "lower frequency of consciousness". I know what he means. In some senses this forum does that too (innocently of course).

But mainstream political discourse is hard for me to swallow nowadays because it has so little to do with what is really happening. Right now we're in the middle of the first mass extinction event for 65 million years. It is the sixth one in the history of our planet. Others were caused by asteroids and things. This one is caused by us. Seems to me that's a pretty big deal. Yet you could watch the news every single day and never once even hear it mentioned.

LOL... I'm afraid I have to agree with Squirrel about Russell Brand. I honestly can't stand him, and this means I can't take anything he says seriously. Much less take his political stance seriously. And yet I am aware he is a very intelligent man so it's probably just me. I'm sure he has plenty of interesting things to say if you can get past the vileness that is called his face.


I'm not going to say that you're wrong about a looming mass extinction, but frankly, as a family from the North struggling to manage day to day, it is not on the top of my agenda. I do what I can, but there is only so much any one, single person can do. The huge global changes have to come from those in power and they don't seem in any hurry to put it at the top of their agenda. Therefore I guess I'm happy being an operator of a lower frequency of conciousness because to operate on a higher level would probably scare the shit out of me.

It poses an interesting question though. I guess all of our agendas are different. For myself, in the countryside, I am very concerned about fracking. I am concerned about education. I am very concerned about public sector workers. I am concerned about the next generations and the rich/poor divide and I am concerned about the future of the NHS. I am worried about how I am going to afford food and petrol over the next month and the immediate worry about our rent rising once again and the possiblility of us having to move and downsize in order to have a roof over our heads. I guess I'm in a position where a mass extinction doesn't seem too bad. I have really nothing to lose and all our family would be together. I don't own any proerty and our cars are knackered. Our kids have no real prospect of owning their own properties or having a retirement to look forward to in their old age either. If the Tories get in we'll all be shit scared of getting dementia or any other long-term illness that might require medical assistance as well. And at least we'd have no grammar schools or war. So I guess if the end is due, C'est la vie - I have much less to lose than many.

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