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Reply #60 posted 05/15/17 11:28am

maplenpg

midnightmover said:

deebee said:

^^ What will happen to the NHS is one of the scariest things about the prospect of five years of Tory rule, especially with the predicted whopping majority. It seems entirely imaginable to me, for example, that in the next five years they'll introduce a charge to see a GP, just like happens with the dentists now, thus symbolically driving the knife into the ideological basis of the NHS. I read a few months back about polling that said a large proportion of people more or less expect that now, and kind of passively accept it. People seem to be taking a defeated, fatalistic approach to such things these days - but, really, there should be riots on the streets.

The public has been worn down with propaganda. Case in point: the state-funded Channel 4 has a series at the moment called "Confessions of a Junior Doctor". I haven't been watching it, but I caught a few minutes of it two weeks ago. The very last words of the program were the doctor saying something like "It can't go on like this. Something has got to change".

This is what they did with British Rail in the 80s. They ran it down for years as a pretext for privatization. And now the NHS is going the same way. The Health and Social Care Act of 2012 was a vital part of the process. The Liberal Democrats should never be allowed to forget the role they played in that.

Agreed. But I do think Corbyn has shot himself in the foot by declaring tax on earners over £80,000. There will be a lot of doctors who might have voted labour but might now look elsewhere.

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Reply #61 posted 05/15/17 1:33pm

deebee

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DiminutiveRocker said:

deebee said:

^^ What will happen to the NHS is one of the scariest things about the prospect of five years of Tory rule, especially with the predicted whopping majority. It seems entirely imaginable to me, for example, that in the next five years they'll introduce a charge to see a GP, just like happens with the dentists now, thus symbolically driving the knife into the ideological basis of the NHS. I read a few months back about polling that said a large proportion of people more or less expect that now, and kind of passively accept it. People seem to be taking a defeated, fatalistic approach to such things these days - but, really, there should be riots on the streets.


This is some scary shit, DB.

Yeah, it's worrying. You can feel the health service 'creaking' at the moment, if you use it. And lots of other auxilliary support services at the local level have been cut under the auspices of austerity, so it's taking a lot of strain. I think it's true that the next step is to invite in (further) private funding, roll out charges, etc. It would be good to think that people would be militant in their opposition to that (the veteran socialist MP Tony Benn always said people would take to the streets if a government ever tried it), but I do wonder now if people are too demoralised and misled to fight back.

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #62 posted 05/15/17 2:02pm

deebee

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maplenpg said:

deebee said:

^^ What will happen to the NHS is one of the scariest things about the prospect of five years of Tory rule, especially with the predicted whopping majority. It seems entirely imaginable to me, for example, that in the next five years they'll introduce a charge to see a GP, just like happens with the dentists now, thus symbolically driving the knife into the ideological basis of the NHS. I read a few months back about polling that said a large proportion of people more or less expect that now, and kind of passively accept it. People seem to be taking a defeated, fatalistic approach to such things these days - but, really, there should be riots on the streets.

As always Deebee you are absolutely right. Many are resigned to the collapse of the NHS, or certainly that the NHS in its current form will not survive. There is already a private GP service in Dorset - I think we can expect to see more of them under Tory rule. Of course a charge to visit your GP is going to, in some instances, discourage people from wanting to check minor worries out. The problem with that is that minor worries (such as going to the toilet more frequently, or a small lump under the armpit) can often be an early sign of something more serious, and could therefore be more costly in the long term for the NHS who face the prospect of conditions not being diagnosed until they are more advanced.



[Edited 5/13/17 23:41pm]

Indeed. Medical experts are always emphasising the importance of early detection, hence the reason why screening programmes for certain serious illnesses are desirable. It will further harden the already existing link between class and quality of health - and, indeed, life expectancy - as other cuts to local services do the same for quality of life more generally.

As you say, though, privatisation has been creeping in already. I'm registered as an NHS patient at my local dentist, and I noticed they were charging me £32 to see the hygienist (for a 20 min appointment!), though I usually get charged the lower rate for a regular appointment (as a result of earlier waves of creeping privatisation). Why?, I asked them. "Oh, you can't get hygienist appointments on the NHS now", they said, "at least not here." So, gradually, they take a little more of what was once ours. I can easily see that happening with other services.

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #63 posted 05/15/17 2:10pm

deebee

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midnightmover said:

deebee said:

^^ What will happen to the NHS is one of the scariest things about the prospect of five years of Tory rule, especially with the predicted whopping majority. It seems entirely imaginable to me, for example, that in the next five years they'll introduce a charge to see a GP, just like happens with the dentists now, thus symbolically driving the knife into the ideological basis of the NHS. I read a few months back about polling that said a large proportion of people more or less expect that now, and kind of passively accept it. People seem to be taking a defeated, fatalistic approach to such things these days - but, really, there should be riots on the streets.

The public has been worn down with propaganda. Case in point: the state-funded Channel 4 has a series at the moment called "Confessions of a Junior Doctor". I haven't been watching it, but I caught a few minutes of it two weeks ago. The very last words of the program were the doctor saying something like "It can't go on like this. Something has got to change".

This is what they did with British Rail in the 80s. They ran it down for years as a pretext for privatization. And now the NHS is going the same way. The Health and Social Care Act of 2012 was a vital part of the process. The Liberal Democrats should never be allowed to forget the role they played in that.

Yes, I recall a meme of Uncle Noam....



...and it's true: you hear people complaining all the time about the NHS now. Less so, the government that got it to that state. So, when it's announced that, well, 'we' have no money, and there's some nice investors that want to give us some, and it's only a small part of that service (at this point), well, maybe people will acquiesce. Certainly, the left-wing backlash one might've hoped would emerge hasn't exactly been overwhelming as of yet.

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #64 posted 05/15/17 2:25pm

2freaky4church
1

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They also use the term jobs when they should use the correct term: profits.

"2freaky is a complete stud." DJ
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Reply #65 posted 05/16/17 1:56pm

maplenpg

midnightmover said:

deebee said:

^^ What will happen to the NHS is one of the scariest things about the prospect of five years of Tory rule, especially with the predicted whopping majority. It seems entirely imaginable to me, for example, that in the next five years they'll introduce a charge to see a GP, just like happens with the dentists now, thus symbolically driving the knife into the ideological basis of the NHS. I read a few months back about polling that said a large proportion of people more or less expect that now, and kind of passively accept it. People seem to be taking a defeated, fatalistic approach to such things these days - but, really, there should be riots on the streets.

The public has been worn down with propaganda. Case in point: the state-funded Channel 4 has a series at the moment called "Confessions of a Junior Doctor". I haven't been watching it, but I caught a few minutes of it two weeks ago. The very last words of the program were the doctor saying something like "It can't go on like this. Something has got to change".

This is what they did with British Rail in the 80s. They ran it down for years as a pretext for privatization. And now the NHS is going the same way. The Health and Social Care Act of 2012 was a vital part of the process. The Liberal Democrats should never be allowed to forget the role they played in that.

From the Labour manifesto:


The next Labour government will reverse privatisation of our NHS and return our health service into expert public control. Labour will repeal the Health and Social Care Act that puts profits before patients, and make the NHS the preferred provider. We will reinstate the powers of the Secretary of State for Health to have overall responsibility for the NHS.

I just wish more people would take notice of how important this all is. In 2015 private companies won 40% of all contracts, yet 84% of people want a public NHS.

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Reply #66 posted 05/16/17 11:04pm

maplenpg

deebee said:

midnightmover said:

The public has been worn down with propaganda. Case in point: the state-funded Channel 4 has a series at the moment called "Confessions of a Junior Doctor". I haven't been watching it, but I caught a few minutes of it two weeks ago. The very last words of the program were the doctor saying something like "It can't go on like this. Something has got to change".

This is what they did with British Rail in the 80s. They ran it down for years as a pretext for privatization. And now the NHS is going the same way. The Health and Social Care Act of 2012 was a vital part of the process. The Liberal Democrats should never be allowed to forget the role they played in that.

Yes, I recall a meme of Uncle Noam....



...and it's true: you hear people complaining all the time about the NHS now. Less so, the government that got it to that state. So, when it's announced that, well, 'we' have no money, and there's some nice investors that want to give us some, and it's only a small part of that service (at this point), well, maybe people will acquiesce. Certainly, the left-wing backlash one might've hoped would emerge hasn't exactly been overwhelming as of yet.

I think the backlash in the short term will manifest itself in the form of strike action. Whether the public get on board or not remains to be seen. I'm still amazed Hunt has his job after the junior doctor scandal. I know nurses are ready to strike and I believe headteachers are ready too. Teachers and other NHS staff could easily join them. I think the emergency services are getting a rough ride at the minute as well regarding pay and pensions. As far as protests against privitization - I think it's being drip-fed so that the protests won't begin until it is too late and virgincare (or insert other name) is already established. Really there should be an outcry over the politics of the last six years but there is none.

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Reply #67 posted 05/16/17 11:06pm

maplenpg

deebee said:

maplenpg said:

As always Deebee you are absolutely right. Many are resigned to the collapse of the NHS, or certainly that the NHS in its current form will not survive. There is already a private GP service in Dorset - I think we can expect to see more of them under Tory rule. Of course a charge to visit your GP is going to, in some instances, discourage people from wanting to check minor worries out. The problem with that is that minor worries (such as going to the toilet more frequently, or a small lump under the armpit) can often be an early sign of something more serious, and could therefore be more costly in the long term for the NHS who face the prospect of conditions not being diagnosed until they are more advanced.



[Edited 5/13/17 23:41pm]

Indeed. Medical experts are always emphasising the importance of early detection, hence the reason why screening programmes for certain serious illnesses are desirable. It will further harden the already existing link between class and quality of health - and, indeed, life expectancy - as other cuts to local services do the same for quality of life more generally.

As you say, though, privatisation has been creeping in already. I'm registered as an NHS patient at my local dentist, and I noticed they were charging me £32 to see the hygienist (for a 20 min appointment!), though I usually get charged the lower rate for a regular appointment (as a result of earlier waves of creeping privatisation). Why?, I asked them. "Oh, you can't get hygienist appointments on the NHS now", they said, "at least not here." So, gradually, they take a little more of what was once ours. I can easily see that happening with other services.

And dental health is at its worst level for decades. I wonder why that is?

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Reply #68 posted 05/18/17 5:14pm

SquirrelMeat

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maplenpg said:

midnightmover said:

The public has been worn down with propaganda. Case in point: the state-funded Channel 4 has a series at the moment called "Confessions of a Junior Doctor". I haven't been watching it, but I caught a few minutes of it two weeks ago. The very last words of the program were the doctor saying something like "It can't go on like this. Something has got to change".

This is what they did with British Rail in the 80s. They ran it down for years as a pretext for privatization. And now the NHS is going the same way. The Health and Social Care Act of 2012 was a vital part of the process. The Liberal Democrats should never be allowed to forget the role they played in that.

From the Labour manifesto:


The next Labour government will reverse privatisation of our NHS and return our health service into expert public control. Labour will repeal the Health and Social Care Act that puts profits before patients, and make the NHS the preferred provider. We will reinstate the powers of the Secretary of State for Health to have overall responsibility for the NHS.

I just wish more people would take notice of how important this all is. In 2015 private companies won 40% of all contracts, yet 84% of people want a public NHS.


The private sector are often demonised. 'Expert public control' doesn't exist. I now work in it and its a total mess. It is hugely inefficient compared to most of the private sector. The tipping point is if the private sector make excessive profit at the expense of service.

Labour like to make the private sector the bogeyman, but the reality is, if you replaced it with direct public sector control, the addition costs would outstrip the profits. Not it all cases, but certainly in the majority.

.
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Reply #69 posted 05/19/17 11:44pm

midnightmover

SquirrelMeat said:

maplenpg said:

From the Labour manifesto:


The next Labour government will reverse privatisation of our NHS and return our health service into expert public control. Labour will repeal the Health and Social Care Act that puts profits before patients, and make the NHS the preferred provider. We will reinstate the powers of the Secretary of State for Health to have overall responsibility for the NHS.

I just wish more people would take notice of how important this all is. In 2015 private companies won 40% of all contracts, yet 84% of people want a public NHS.


The private sector are often demonised. 'Expert public control' doesn't exist. I now work in it and its a total mess. It is hugely inefficient compared to most of the private sector. The tipping point is if the private sector make excessive profit at the expense of service.

Labour like to make the private sector the bogeyman, but the reality is, if you replaced it with direct public sector control, the addition costs would outstrip the profits. Not it all cases, but certainly in the majority.

Amazing how you type out stereotypical right wing bullshit like this on every issue and then pretend to be politically neutral. I can only assume that as a posh relatively well off person you think you look a little selfish and callous to just simply say that you support the ideology that best protects your priviledge so instead you go through this ridiculous charade of pretending that you're neither right wing or left wing. Posts like this make a mockery of that claim.

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Reply #70 posted 05/19/17 11:57pm

midnightmover

deebee said:

midnightmover said:

The public has been worn down with propaganda. Case in point: the state-funded Channel 4 has a series at the moment called "Confessions of a Junior Doctor". I haven't been watching it, but I caught a few minutes of it two weeks ago. The very last words of the program were the doctor saying something like "It can't go on like this. Something has got to change".

This is what they did with British Rail in the 80s. They ran it down for years as a pretext for privatization. And now the NHS is going the same way. The Health and Social Care Act of 2012 was a vital part of the process. The Liberal Democrats should never be allowed to forget the role they played in that.

Yes, I recall a meme of Uncle Noam....



...and it's true: you hear people complaining all the time about the NHS now. Less so, the government that got it to that state. So, when it's announced that, well, 'we' have no money, and there's some nice investors that want to give us some, and it's only a small part of that service (at this point), well, maybe people will acquiesce. Certainly, the left-wing backlash one might've hoped would emerge hasn't exactly been overwhelming as of yet.

Seven years ago patient satisfaction levels on the NHS were sky high. It only took 4 or 5 years of Tory rule to send them plummeting.

And as another example of the orchestrated campaign, the state funded Channel 4 have another series running in a prime time slot at the moment called "NHS: 2 Billion a Week & Counting" which is all about what should get cut and what shouldn't. The public is being programmed to simply accept a depleted NHS. Then when they can't take anymore the profiteers will pounce and bam, probably the best health care system in the world will be a thing of the past (it already is of course but at least it's reversible at the moment).

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Reply #71 posted 05/20/17 5:00am

maplenpg

SquirrelMeat said:

maplenpg said:

From the Labour manifesto:


The next Labour government will reverse privatisation of our NHS and return our health service into expert public control. Labour will repeal the Health and Social Care Act that puts profits before patients, and make the NHS the preferred provider. We will reinstate the powers of the Secretary of State for Health to have overall responsibility for the NHS.

I just wish more people would take notice of how important this all is. In 2015 private companies won 40% of all contracts, yet 84% of people want a public NHS.


The private sector are often demonised. 'Expert public control' doesn't exist. I now work in it and its a total mess. It is hugely inefficient compared to most of the private sector. The tipping point is if the private sector make excessive profit at the expense of service.

Labour like to make the private sector the bogeyman, but the reality is, if you replaced it with direct public sector control, the addition costs would outstrip the profits. Not it all cases, but certainly in the majority.

I'll be less harsh than MM as I want to encourage debate in this thread and personal attacks do nothing to further debate and discussion. I work in the public sector and have spent a larger proportion of my life in the private sector. There is no doubt which is better. But that is because the private sector uses the funds that it needs to in order to turn a profit. The profit is the only focus - not the care, not the communication; just the profit. Where I work now has just announced yet another set of cutbacks and redundancies. How can it possibly provide a better service with even fewer staff and much fewer resources? On top of this all infastructure funding has been stopped causing the place to literally be crumbling around us. What is happening is that a massive bill is growing larger and larger and larger each year and cutting staff should not be the way to pay for building repairs etc... So, to answer your point - I believe 'Expert public control' can exist - it just needs the funds to enable it to do so. There is no doubt these are being deliberately withheld by the Tory government post 2010.



But for me, the public/private argument has been overshadowed by the Tory manifesto which presupposes that Tory voters are still going to vote Tory even when faced with the blunt fact that they may lose their home should require care in their final years. Frankly, this turns my stomach and the aging population, many of whom worked tirelessly to own their property or to be able to leave something for the next generation (who frankly need all the help they can get), are faced with the grim reality that getting a long term illness such as dementia, could ultimately cost them everything they ever worked for. What a shitty lottery to have to be a part of. Expect more trips to Switzerland and more suicide by overdose (which will remain unreported as dementia is blamed for them taking too many tablets).



Also I am disgusted by the reversal of free school dinners for all infants (which ensures every child has access to at least one healthy nutritional meal a day). I disagree with this on two levels - first that as a working family myself with infant age twins, that not only has it been a godsend whilst we live on the breadline and struggle day to day, but also because we don't always have time to cook a 'proper' meal in the evening as we are working (beans on toast is becoming quite a staple). But more than myself and my family, there are hundreds of thousands of kids who do not get fed properly, who will revert back to a white bread sandwich, crisps and a chocolate bar, who will then become obese, which in turn is already costing the government millions. At least by offering free school meals we are ensuring that kids have access to vegetables at least once a day. Surely every infant deserves that?



I'm going to have a dig a Corbyn whilst I'm on a rant. Having watched the ITV debate the other night, Corbyn missed a trick by not being part of it. Lib Dem and Greens were very agreeable (almost too much so) and many of the policies Corbyn agrees with too. I believe this would have lifted his popularity and cemented him as a real opponent. I'm quite angry with him for missing that opportunity.


Sorry for the rant, but the 'demons' are not the private sector, who wait like vultures ready to devour flesh whenever possible - the 'demons' are the Tories who are starving the public sector and and then throwing their emaciated carcusses out for the vultures to feast on.

[Edited 5/20/17 5:01am]

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