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Thread started 03/13/17 10:09am

Dasein

The "Necessity" of a Second Advent


Before you post, please recognize that this thread presumes the following:

Jesus Christ lived and was/is who the New Testament says he is. So, this thread is not about the
historicity, or historical authenticity of Jesus Christ, but is christological in nature, which means we
assume Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ - how this is to be interpreted is what this thread is ho-
ping to investigate and/or discuss.

***************


Scripturally speaking, does anybody know why God has ordained Jesus' return to enter into
the affairs of humans a second time? Even in the face of a scriptural basis, ultimately, I would
like to argue that this theological claim of a parousia or second coming/presence of Jesus
Christ into history/spacetime is unnecessary. We may also use creedal bases for the purposes
of this discussion as well (what the Nicene Creed asserts, for example).

I'll be using the following as the foundation to any argument that unfolds:

1) Christianity is no longer an inchoate religious/cultural system beleaguered and accosted by
another dominant religious/cultural system, but is the religious/cultural system which is the lens
for which most of our western civilization views reality and itself, and that the notion of a second
coming or advent or presence makes more theological sense for a people oppressed and perse-
cuted. Here, I will be evaluating the theological soundness of scriptural claims.

2) If God needs Jesus' return to make things "right" again, then it suggest God's original plan was
possibly "not right" or "fallible" upon its inception. In other words, God establishing a kingdom on
Earth that was fallible and terminable, yet will install Jesus to reign over a new kingdom that never
ends indicates the initial kingdom was not perfectly conceived or designed or executed. Here, I
will be evaluating the theological soundess of creedal claims, especially the Nicene Creed.

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Reply #1 posted 03/13/17 12:21pm

2freaky4church
1

avatar

Jesus rose already. That was the second coming.

wildsign Wave your wildsigns high!! wildsign
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Reply #2 posted 03/13/17 4:36pm

Dasein

2freaky4church1 said:

Jesus rose already. That was the second coming.


Hmm . . .


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Reply #3 posted 03/14/17 7:44am

2freaky4church
1

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ahaha

wildsign Wave your wildsigns high!! wildsign
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Reply #4 posted 03/14/17 12:36pm

Dasein

2freaky4church1 said:

ahaha


If you only knew what my "hmm" was for . . .

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Reply #5 posted 03/15/17 8:36pm

riocoolnes

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Pretty obvious, there are certain qualifications of the messiah and expectations of what he is supposed to accomplish.

JC failed hard and then died. So instead of realizing that he died his death signified he wasn't really the messiah as the majority of the people who were familiar with biblical law did at the timw. His apologists made up an unfounded claim that he will come back and fulfill all of the prophesies he has yet to do and sold it to peoole who were ignorant to the law. Which is essentially a cop out
[Edited 3/15/17 20:39pm]
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Reply #6 posted 03/16/17 4:13am

RicoN

avatar

Dasein said:

2freaky4church1 said:

ahaha


If you only knew what my "hmm" was for . . .



You just shot your load?

Yes, I've probably made a spelling mistake, but I can't be arsed to go back and correc tit.
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Reply #7 posted 03/16/17 6:46am

2freaky4church
1

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Keep your loads to golum.

wildsign Wave your wildsigns high!! wildsign
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Reply #8 posted 03/17/17 3:42pm

Dasein

riocoolnes said:

Pretty obvious, there are certain qualifications of the messiah and expectations of what he is supposed to accomplish. JC failed hard and then died. So instead of realizing that he died his death signified he wasn't really the messiah as the majority of the people who were familiar with biblical law did at the timw. His apologists made up an unfounded claim that he will come back and fulfill all of the prophesies he has yet to do and sold it to peoole who were ignorant to the law. Which is essentially a cop out [Edited 3/15/17 20:39pm]


Why do you think Jesus failed as a messiah?

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Reply #9 posted 03/18/17 5:41pm

toejam

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Daesin - Would you say that Jesus was the Messiah? And if so, in what sense was he?

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #10 posted 03/18/17 8:17pm

TRUECRISTIAN

This is what my father told me to do whenever voting ...if I'm in doubt, I must vote Republican, since God is one. confused confused confused

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Reply #11 posted 03/19/17 7:55am

Dasein

toejam said:

Daesin - Would you say that Jesus was the Messiah? And if so, in what sense was he?


In what sense are you using the word "messiah" - Jewish or Christian?

I'm leaning towards, Judaically speaking, "no" and Christianly "yes." I'll wait for your response
before I play my hand.

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Reply #12 posted 03/19/17 8:08am

Dasein

The cultural/social psychology of ancient groups who had saviors of the world coming from their
own group is very interesting. What I mean is that I think most ancient groups constructed cos-
mologies and histories where they were uniquely chosen by gods to be chief on the earth and if
any divine rescuing was needed, s/he would not come from any outside group but from within.

I wonder how many other ancient groups shared a similar "messiah" concept with the Jews? If
we can show that Judaism wasn't the only system that had a culturally identifiable savior rescuing
the world from itself, then we could show that this messiah concept proliferation as expressed multi-
culturally suggests it's a feature of ancient group-think and we ought not expect any kind of messiah
who could save a culture outside of itself. In other words, with so many cultures having a messiah,
it reduces the likelihood of one messiah saving the entire world.

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Reply #13 posted 03/19/17 2:11pm

toejam

avatar

Dasein said:

toejam said:

Daesin - Would you say that Jesus was the Messiah? And if so, in what sense was he?


In what sense are you using the word "messiah" - Jewish or Christian?

I'm leaning towards, Judaically speaking, "no" and Christianly "yes." I'll wait for your response
before I play my hand.

.

Fair enough. I suppose then that People's Templely speaking, Jim Jones was the Messiah.
.

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #14 posted 03/19/17 2:46pm

Dasein

There is a difference between Jesus of Nazareth and Jim Jones. What you're doing is constructing
a facile comparison for the purposes of making it a point to show that anybody can be a messiah,
which is true on one hand, but you err because there is no other historial and religious analogue for
Jesus Christ to quickly and easily compare the status of messiahship. This facile comparison you often
make appears to speak to your limited interaction with Jim Jones' life and his work. All you see is:

Two dudes who had churches which say they were messiahs that asks its adherents to die for their
cause
as well.

But that's just fucking dumb and ignorant of historical nuance. So, I'll leave your Jim Jones refer-
ence to the Religious 101 undergraduate students and circle back again to asking you in what sense
are you using the word "messiah" when you ask about Jesus? We've had this discussion before
and not much has changed:

Christians are justified in re-appropriating what a messiah is as it pertains to Jesus, who was clearly
not the messiah the Jews were hoping for in a traditional sense. Now, do you want to talk about why
I think Jesus ought not return at all? Or, we could talk about my post concerning cultural/social psy-
chology as it pertains to messiahship. I am all for criticizing Christianity but doing so in a construc-
tive and informed manner. So, I'm not interested in your thoughts on Jesus' failed messiahship and
your ridiculous comparisons to Jim Jones as the results of one's messiahship (Jesus) has reverberated
throughout history and our western society, and still endures today, while the other's messiahship
dissolved upon his death (Jones).

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Reply #15 posted 03/19/17 3:06pm

toejam

avatar

Dasein said:

There is a difference between Jesus of Nazareth and Jim Jones.



And there was a difference between what the Jews expected of the Messiah and Jesus of Nazareth, as you acknowledge.

My point was, which you also acknowledge, is anybody can be called the Messiah provided we work within the definition and understanding of the cult hero in the eyes of the cult members.

Jones too could also be said to have been not a traditional Messiah wink

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #16 posted 03/19/17 3:13pm

Dasein

toejam said:

Dasein said:

There is a difference between Jesus of Nazareth and Jim Jones.

And there was a difference between what the Jews expected of the Messiah and Jesus of Nazareth, as you acknowledge. My point was, which you also acknowledge, is anybody can be called the Messiah provided we work within the definition and understanding of the cult hero in the eyes of the cult members. Jones too could also be said to have been not a traditional Messiah wink


Your point is better made and more convincing if you don't use Jim Jones as a historical and
messianic analogue to Jesus Christ who never persuaded or asked his followers to suicide upon
being captured and sentenced to death for pissing off the Sanhedrin and Rome.

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Reply #17 posted 03/19/17 4:37pm

toejam

avatar

You would agree with me though that from the point of view of the devout members of People's Temple, Jones was the Messiah?

.
[Edited 3/19/17 16:38pm]
Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #18 posted 03/19/17 5:51pm

Dasein

toejam said:

You would agree with me though that from the point of view of the devout members of People's Temple, Jones was the Messiah? . [Edited 3/19/17 16:38pm]


Of course they did. But what do we know about charismatic spiritual/religious leaders and their
ability to be influential on idealistic/uneducated/marginalized people? Most of the people who
died in Jones' congregation were poor Blacks. So, 909 mostly Black people and kids are gone
because oppressed people were looking for salvation via a messiah and religion is often the
strongest source of existential truths.

But do you know how many people who were directly and intimately involved with Jesus' revolution
in Palestine died as a result?

1

Do you know how many people Jesus asked to die for him throughout his ministry?

0.

So, a Jesus to Jim Jones comparison is lazy. I think you would benefit from these readings so as to
prevent you from continually referring to Jim Jones when this message board talks about Jesus of
Nazareth: source source source


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Reply #19 posted 03/19/17 6:24pm

toejam

avatar

I suspect the historical Jesus, like Jones, would have preferred his follows to "take up their cross" to become martyrs and die for him than to deny the feeding of his ego.
Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #20 posted 03/19/17 6:46pm

Dasein

toejam said:

I suspect the historical Jesus, like Jones, would have preferred his follows to "take up their cross" to become martyrs and die for him than to deny the feeding of his ego.


Of course you do.

To be fair to your suspicions, I don't doubt that at one point during his three year ministry, Jesus
felt like he was going to shake the foundations of the world and got off on it; it's human nature to
enjoy notoriety. But to be fair to what is documented, your suspicions ain't what's documented:
like I said, the only person who died on account of Jesus' teachings was Jesus. If all of the twelve
(or eleven, minus Judas Iscariot) were crucified because Jesus asked them to fight and/or die for
him upon his arrest, then you'd have a much more convincing argument. All of this comes to a head
when we recognize that two thousand years after his death, what Jesus taught still matters and
he's billions of followers while Jim Jones is a cautionary and sad tale. But sure, let's compare the
two messiahs!

rolleyes

As for now, you're just simply toejamming my thread, that's all. You're lucky I kinda like you.

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Reply #21 posted 03/19/17 6:48pm

Dasein

Toejam, have you a direct response to my OP? Or, do you have a direct comment to my eighth
post?

If not, . . . .

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Reply #22 posted 03/19/17 8:33pm

toejam

avatar

I think you're toejamming me, trying to force a comparison between Jesus and Jones. The point was not that Jones is equivalent to Jesus. The point was kind of the opposite. That if we play loose with terms even someone as extreme as Jones can be called Messiah if we're looking at him through the eyes of his believers. The point was one that you've since acknowledged - that Jesus didn't accomplish what was expected by Jews to qualify as the Messiah. Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah.
[Edited 3/19/17 21:51pm]
Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #23 posted 03/19/17 8:46pm

toejam

avatar

Jesus's attribution of the title "Messiah" probably (although it is disputable) started within his own lifetime and his own claims, when he went around arousing people into thinking he was THE ONE. When he failed, the conviction of his followers was so strong that they couldn't see the errors of their ways. So a lot of legend creating, equivocation, redefinition and speculative theologizing went on in order to fit the square peg criminally executed Jesus into the round hole title of "Messiah"...
Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #24 posted 03/20/17 2:58am

RicoN

avatar

toejam said:

I think you're toejamming me, trying to force a comparison between Jesus and Jones. The point was not that Jones is equivalent to Jesus. The point was kind of the opposite. That if we play loose with terms even someone as extreme as Jones can be called Messiah if we're looking at him through the eyes of his believers. The point was one that you've since acknowledged - that Jesus didn't accomplish what was expected by Jews to qualify as the Messiah. Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah. [Edited 3/19/17 21:51pm]



No need to com[pare Jesus and Jones, have them here in unison:

https://youtu.be/n8Qhm7KeYLQ

[Edited 3/20/17 2:59am]

Yes, I've probably made a spelling mistake, but I can't be arsed to go back and correc tit.
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Reply #25 posted 03/20/17 3:12am

RicoN

avatar

Can I just ask Dasein, why do you ask questions like this. You say you don't believe in all this kind of thing but you still must ponder it.

Is it like a book club? Is it like fantasy play? In my eyes this qestion is the equivalent to who would be better to come to earth, Superman or Spiderman?

Yes, I've probably made a spelling mistake, but I can't be arsed to go back and correc tit.
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Reply #26 posted 03/20/17 5:05am

Dasein

toejam said:

The point was...that Jesus didn't accomplish what was expected by Jews to qualify as the Messiah. Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah. [Edited 3/19/17 21:51pm]


Agreed.

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Reply #27 posted 03/20/17 5:07am

Dasein

toejam said:

Jesus's attribution of the title "Messiah" probably (although it is disputable) started within his own lifetime and his own claims, when he went around arousing people into thinking he was THE ONE. When he failed, the conviction of his followers was so strong that they couldn't see the errors of their ways. So a lot of legend creating, equivocation, redefinition and speculative theologizing went on in order to fit the square peg criminally executed Jesus into the round hole title of "Messiah"...


This is probable.

But do you want to talk about the second coming, which is what this thread is really about?

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Reply #28 posted 03/20/17 5:12am

Dasein

RicoN said:

Can I just ask Dasein, why do you ask questions like this. You say you don't believe in all this kind of thing but you still must ponder it.

Is it like a book club? Is it like fantasy play? In my eyes this qestion is the equivalent to who would be better to come to earth, Superman or Spiderman?


I find theological claims utterly fascinating; it's intellectual poetry and I can't get enough of it. That
being said, it doesn't mean I take all of its claims literally.

But you've raised a false equivalence; we all know that Superman and Spiderman are comic book
characters. Yet, there are reasons to believe that a character named Jesus of Nazareth lived in
Palestine two thousand years ago and was crucified for pissing off the Sanhedrin.

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Reply #29 posted 03/20/17 5:34am

RicoN

avatar

Dasein said:

RicoN said:

Can I just ask Dasein, why do you ask questions like this. You say you don't believe in all this kind of thing but you still must ponder it.

Is it like a book club? Is it like fantasy play? In my eyes this qestion is the equivalent to who would be better to come to earth, Superman or Spiderman?


I find theological claims utterly fascinating; it's intellectual poetry and I can't get enough of it. That
being said, it doesn't mean I take all of its claims literally.

But you've raised a false equivalence; we all know that Superman and Spiderman are comic book
characters. Yet, there are reasons to believe that a character named Jesus of Nazareth lived in
Palestine two thousand years ago and was crucified for pissing off the Sanhedrin.



Without going into all the 'is jesus real' thing, there's no more genuine proof of Superman than there is of Jesus. I think it's a decent comparison, fictional character in a book, sent to save the inhabitants of earth.

Yes, I've probably made a spelling mistake, but I can't be arsed to go back and correc tit.
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