independent and unofficial
Prince fan community site
Sun 20th Aug 2017 2:49am
Welcome! Sign up or enter username and password to remember me
Forum jump
Forums > Politics & Religion > From a Christian to a non Christian
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Page 1 of 6 123456>
  New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
Author

Tweet     Share

Message
Thread started 01/25/17 6:20pm

Monarch

avatar

From a Christian to a non Christian

Would you believe me that I love you? I wanted to say would you believe me if I said I love you. But I'm worried people would think I'm asking would you believe what I believe if I said I love you. But nope, just as you are. If I said I love you, would you believe that I mean it? So I say... I love you whoever you are reading this.
Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one bird.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #1 posted 01/25/17 6:58pm

benni

Monarch said:

Would you believe me that I love you? I wanted to say would you believe me if I said I love you. But I'm worried people would think I'm asking would you believe what I believe if I said I love you. But nope, just as you are. If I said I love you, would you believe that I mean it? So I say... I love you whoever you are reading this.


Beautiful and much love returned. hug

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #2 posted 01/25/17 7:06pm

lust

avatar

Reminds me of a phone call I made to my best mate late one night from a bar after I'd had a skin full.
If the milk turns out to be sour, I aint the kinda pussy to drink it!
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #3 posted 01/25/17 7:09pm

Monarch

avatar

lust said:

Reminds me of a phone call I made to my best mate late one night from a bar after I'd had a skin full.


Lol I haven't been drinking anything 😷
Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one bird.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #4 posted 01/25/17 8:09pm

Dasein

I'm not saying this applies to you, Monarch, but whenver some Christians say "I love you just as
you are," it really means, in my opinion:

I love you even though you are not living as righteously as I think you should be.

Finally, you cannot command someone to love another and expect the love expressed by the
lover towards her beloved to have been given freely. This is my major criticism of Christianity.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #5 posted 01/25/17 8:36pm

lust

avatar

Dasein said:

I'm not saying this applies to you, Monarch, but whenver some Christians say "I love you just as
you are," it really means, in my opinion:

I love you even though you are not living as righteously as I think you should be.

Finally, you cannot command someone to love another and expect the love expressed by the
lover towards her beloved to have been given freely. This is my major criticism of Christianity.



I hear what you're saying but there are a shit load of people out there who HATE me. Like Monarch they don't know me or even know I exist but they really despise me. They would wish real harm to me and would happily cause it given the opportunity. Many have had the opportunity and acted upon it on anonymous people just like me. They too are driven to that emotion by their religious teachings so given the choice, I'd take Monarch'S love all day long.
If the milk turns out to be sour, I aint the kinda pussy to drink it!
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #6 posted 01/25/17 10:01pm

Pokeno4Money

avatar

Dasein said:

I'm not saying this applies to you, Monarch, but whenver some Christians say "I love you just as
you are," it really means, in my opinion:

I love you even though you are not living as righteously as I think you should be.


That's an assumption based strictly on the "Christian" label.

If they were Muslim, Jewish, Atheist, Jehovah or whatever, you'd view it as them accepting who you are and not wanting to change you in any way - both of which are good things. So you taking their comment as a negative instead of a positive is a form of bias, don't ya think?

"As a team, we have chosen to stand and interlock arms in unity. We honor those who have fought for the freedom we cherish. And we stand to ensure the riches and freedom and the security of justice for all people." --- Doug Baldwin
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #7 posted 01/26/17 12:07am

toejam

avatar

lust said:

Reminds me of a phone call I made to my best mate late one night from a bar after I'd had a skin full.


lol lol
Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #8 posted 01/26/17 5:11am

Dasein

Pokeno4Money said:

Dasein said:

I'm not saying this applies to you, Monarch, but whenver some Christians say "I love you just as
you are," it really means, in my opinion:

I love you even though you are not living as righteously as I think you should be.


That's an assumption based strictly on the "Christian" label.

If they were Muslim, Jewish, Atheist, Jehovah or whatever, you'd view it as them accepting who you are and not wanting to change you in any way - both of which are good things. So you taking their comment as a negative instead of a positive is a form of bias, don't ya think?


No. This is an opinion based upon the assumption that humans can be some judgmental
assholes who think they are practicing their religion faithfully by electing to love you "just
the way you are." I mean, why say "just the way you are" after proclaiming your love for
me if the way I am wasn't something worth mentioning in the first place? Ultimately, it is
something worth mentioning and so telling me that you love me "just the way I am"
could really just be you telling me how wonderful you are as a person who is able to love
me despite there being justification for you to not love me.

And in this context, of a Christian speaking to a non-Christian who has already pointed out
what's different between the two, that ain't love: that's pride + being judgmental masquer-
ading as such.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #9 posted 01/26/17 5:13am

Dasein

lust said:

Dasein said:

I'm not saying this applies to you, Monarch, but whenver some Christians say "I love you just as
you are," it really means, in my opinion:

I love you even though you are not living as righteously as I think you should be.

Finally, you cannot command someone to love another and expect the love expressed by the
lover towards her beloved to have been given freely. This is my major criticism of Christianity.

I hear what you're saying but there are a shit load of people out there who HATE me. Like Monarch they don't know me or even know I exist but they really despise me. They would wish real harm to me and would happily cause it given the opportunity. Many have had the opportunity and acted upon it on anonymous people just like me. They too are driven to that emotion by their religious teachings so given the choice, I'd take Monarch'S love all day long.


Like I said: my thoughts here have nothing to do with Monarch personally.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #10 posted 01/26/17 6:33am

2freaky4church
1

avatar

Love mercy.

"2freaky is a complete stud." DJ
"2freaky is very down." 2Elijah.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #11 posted 01/26/17 10:45am

lust

avatar

Dasein said:



lust said:


Dasein said:

I'm not saying this applies to you, Monarch, but whenver some Christians say "I love you just as
you are," it really means, in my opinion:

I love you even though you are not living as righteously as I think you should be.

Finally, you cannot command someone to love another and expect the love expressed by the
lover towards her beloved to have been given freely. This is my major criticism of Christianity.



I hear what you're saying but there are a shit load of people out there who HATE me. Like Monarch they don't know me or even know I exist but they really despise me. They would wish real harm to me and would happily cause it given the opportunity. Many have had the opportunity and acted upon it on anonymous people just like me. They too are driven to that emotion by their religious teachings so given the choice, I'd take Monarch'S love all day long.


Like I said: my thoughts here have nothing to do with Monarch personally.



Neither do mine. My use of Monarch in my last sentence was merely as an example of one ethos over another.

It's like with another thread someone started asking why people cherry pick the nice bits of their holy books but ignore the bits about stoning people to death for all sorts of supposed offences. Might not make sense but it's preferable to those who cherry pick the shit.

In other words, no matter how nonsensical I find your beleifs, have at it as long as you understand that your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins.
If the milk turns out to be sour, I aint the kinda pussy to drink it!
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #12 posted 01/26/17 10:52am

2freaky4church
1

avatar

Lust is an Israel flak.

"2freaky is a complete stud." DJ
"2freaky is very down." 2Elijah.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #13 posted 01/26/17 10:55am

RodeoSchro

avatar

I love you too!

Second Funkiest White Man in America

P&R's paladin
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #14 posted 01/26/17 11:35am

2freaky4church
1

avatar

Love, can it be trusted.

"2freaky is a complete stud." DJ
"2freaky is very down." 2Elijah.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #15 posted 01/26/17 12:26pm

lust

avatar

2freaky4church1 said:

Lust is an Israel flak.



I neither know what that means nor understand it's relevance to this thread but it's not inconsistent with your apparent obsession.

That said, Israel. I fucking love the place. wink
If the milk turns out to be sour, I aint the kinda pussy to drink it!
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #16 posted 01/26/17 12:57pm

Monarch

avatar

So I tried to deliberately not give any reason as to why would I love someone who I will probably never meet or know there name. Being flesh and blood I can only even know there's someone there by seeing a view number on the thread. I think it is possible to love someone under that circumstance because we see adorable images of children & we feel love for them. Some animals will be affectionate after knowing us only 15 seconds. So I think we are capable of this. As far as why I told people I'm a Christian eludes to a reason why this is possible. My reasoning is that if I believe the bible, then I believe Jesus suffered & died for you (the reader). I consider that a fanatical love meaning if Jesus aka Emanuel (God with us) is your biggest fan. Apparently your very important then. Important enough that if my father loves you that much, then it looks like I really ought to love you. Therefore I'm telling anyone who hears me that you are worth being tortured & killed for. I'm not Jesus, I don't have that kind of strength but the very least I can do is tell you that I love you.
Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one bird.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #17 posted 01/26/17 12:59pm

Monarch

avatar

Woops I almost forgot lol. May I suggest looking into a concept called agape love.
[Edited 1/26/17 13:00pm]
Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one bird.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #18 posted 01/26/17 3:54pm

Lammastide

avatar

Monarch, more than knowing your motive to love, I'd be curious to read your understanding of what it is to love Christianly. Are you subscribing to a C.S. Lewis-like reading of agape, or have you some other take? Feel free to share in private, if you prefer.

[Edited 1/26/17 15:58pm]

Ὅσον ζῇς φαίνου
μηδὲν ὅλως σὺ λυποῦ
πρὸς ὀλίγον ἐστὶ τὸ ζῆν
τὸ τέλος ὁ χρόνος ἀπαιτεῖ.”
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #19 posted 01/26/17 5:13pm

Monarch

avatar

Lammastide said:

Monarch, more than knowing your motive to love, I'd be curious to read your understanding of what it is to love Christianly. Are you subscribing to a C.S. Lewis-like reading of agape, or have you some other take? Feel free to share in private, if you prefer.


[Edited 1/26/17 15:58pm]



If I'm hearing you correctly your asking my definition of agape love is? I'm going by the Greek word agape, & viewing it as something that is improbable for the human condition. I'm also defining love as a verb. Lastly I define Christianity as a religion. My personal walk has been a relationship not a religion. Although I would fit the label. I think agape love is possible for my fallen mind only through God's power. It is potentially possible for anyone including a non believer in brief moments because humans are the image & likeness of God. This "potential" school of thought is only speculation because I'm honestly not sure. I'm defining agape as something like what animals who love us are capable of. It's perfectly intense, perfectly pure, perfectly perfect. The closest I think most of us experience is the famous "mothers love". But imagine if that mother as wonderful as she is, were to be a beyond humanly perfect.

I hope I understood your question. I really miss these deep conversations. We need more of them.
[Edited 1/26/17 17:22pm]
Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one bird.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #20 posted 01/26/17 5:24pm

Pokeno4Money

avatar

Dasein said:

Pokeno4Money said:


That's an assumption based strictly on the "Christian" label.

If they were Muslim, Jewish, Atheist, Jehovah or whatever, you'd view it as them accepting who you are and not wanting to change you in any way - both of which are good things. So you taking their comment as a negative instead of a positive is a form of bias, don't ya think?


No. This is an opinion based upon the assumption that humans can be some judgmental
assholes who think they are practicing their religion faithfully by electing to love you "just
the way you are." I mean, why say "just the way you are" after proclaiming your love for
me if the way I am wasn't something worth mentioning in the first place? Ultimately, it is
something worth mentioning and so telling me that you love me "just the way I am"
could really just be you telling me how wonderful you are as a person who is able to love
me despite there being justification for you to not love me.

And in this context, of a Christian speaking to a non-Christian who has already pointed out
what's different between the two, that ain't love: that's pride + being judgmental masquer-
ading as such.


If you're really referring to humans, then say humans. Don't single out Christians.

Every person on this planet has flaws. Anybody who isn't willing to accept any person's flaws (ie: love them unconditionally) is going to be one helluva lonely soul. Sure there are some judgmental people, but they ain't all Christians.

"As a team, we have chosen to stand and interlock arms in unity. We honor those who have fought for the freedom we cherish. And we stand to ensure the riches and freedom and the security of justice for all people." --- Doug Baldwin
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #21 posted 01/27/17 6:59am

Dasein

Pokeno4Money said:

Dasein said:


No. This is an opinion based upon the assumption that humans can be some judgmental
assholes who think they are practicing their religion faithfully by electing to love you "just
the way you are." I mean, why say "just the way you are" after proclaiming your love for
me if the way I am wasn't something worth mentioning in the first place? Ultimately, it is
something worth mentioning and so telling me that you love me "just the way I am"
could really just be you telling me how wonderful you are as a person who is able to love
me despite there being justification for you to not love me.

And in this context, of a Christian speaking to a non-Christian who has already pointed out
what's different between the two, that ain't love: that's pride + being judgmental masquer-
ading as such.


If you're really referring to humans, then say humans. Don't single out Christians.

Every person on this planet has flaws. Anybody who isn't willing to accept any person's flaws (ie: love them unconditionally) is going to be one helluva lonely soul. Sure there are some judgmental people, but they ain't all Christians.


Christians are humans; a Christian initiated the thread. So, I don't need to say "humans" and I
can certainly single out Christians as in this context, I'm directing my criticism towards humans
who are Christians!

The rest of your post was written for your own benefit as it doesn't really add much to the dis-
cussion: I don't think there are too many posters here who think all Christians are judgmental
and also think humans are not flawed.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #22 posted 01/27/17 8:20pm

Lammastide

avatar

Monarch said:

Lammastide said:

Monarch, more than knowing your motive to love, I'd be curious to read your understanding of what it is to love Christianly. Are you subscribing to a C.S. Lewis-like reading of agape, or have you some other take? Feel free to share in private, if you prefer.

[Edited 1/26/17 15:58pm]

If I'm hearing you correctly your asking my definition of agape love is? I'm going by the Greek word agape, & viewing it as something that is improbable for the human condition. I'm also defining love as a verb. Lastly I define Christianity as a religion. My personal walk has been a relationship not a religion. Although I would fit the label. I think agape love is possible for my fallen mind only through God's power. It is potentially possible for anyone including a non believer in brief moments because humans are the image & likeness of God. This "potential" school of thought is only speculation because I'm honestly not sure. I'm defining agape as something like what animals who love us are capable of. It's perfectly intense, perfectly pure, perfectly perfect. The closest I think most of us experience is the famous "mothers love". But imagine if that mother as wonderful as she is, were to be a beyond humanly perfect. I hope I understood your question. I really miss these deep conversations. We need more of them. [Edited 1/26/17 17:22pm]


I appreciate your answer.

Ὅσον ζῇς φαίνου
μηδὲν ὅλως σὺ λυποῦ
πρὸς ὀλίγον ἐστὶ τὸ ζῆν
τὸ τέλος ὁ χρόνος ἀπαιτεῖ.”
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #23 posted 01/29/17 4:15am

Pokeno4Money

avatar

Dasein said:

Pokeno4Money said:


If you're really referring to humans, then say humans. Don't single out Christians.

Every person on this planet has flaws. Anybody who isn't willing to accept any person's flaws (ie: love them unconditionally) is going to be one helluva lonely soul. Sure there are some judgmental people, but they ain't all Christians.


Christians are humans; a Christian initiated the thread. So, I don't need to say "humans" and I
can certainly single out Christians as in this context, I'm directing my criticism towards humans
who are Christians!

The rest of your post was written for your own benefit as it doesn't really add much to the dis-
cussion: I don't think there are too many posters here who think all Christians are judgmental
and also think humans are not flawed.


But you DID say "humans" in your prior post. giggle

"As a team, we have chosen to stand and interlock arms in unity. We honor those who have fought for the freedom we cherish. And we stand to ensure the riches and freedom and the security of justice for all people." --- Doug Baldwin
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #24 posted 01/29/17 6:42am

Dasein

Lammastide said:

Monarch said:

Lammastide said: If I'm hearing you correctly your asking my definition of agape love is? I'm going by the Greek word agape, & viewing it as something that is improbable for the human condition. I'm also defining love as a verb. Lastly I define Christianity as a religion. My personal walk has been a relationship not a religion. Although I would fit the label. I think agape love is possible for my fallen mind only through God's power. It is potentially possible for anyone including a non believer in brief moments because humans are the image & likeness of God. This "potential" school of thought is only speculation because I'm honestly not sure. I'm defining agape as something like what animals who love us are capable of. It's perfectly intense, perfectly pure, perfectly perfect. The closest I think most of us experience is the famous "mothers love". But imagine if that mother as wonderful as she is, were to be a beyond humanly perfect. I hope I understood your question. I really miss these deep conversations. We need more of them. [Edited 1/26/17 17:22pm]


I appreciate your answer.


I totally did not appreciate Monarch's answer because I have no idea what Monarch was talking
about!

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #25 posted 01/29/17 10:21am

2freaky4church
1

avatar

This guy's story is how the spirit is powerful:

https://en.wikipedia.org/..._Lusseyran

Talk about a fucking saint. Then the poor guy dies.

"2freaky is a complete stud." DJ
"2freaky is very down." 2Elijah.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #26 posted 01/29/17 12:09pm

Dasein

^

Cool.

Bonhoeffer's my guy.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #27 posted 01/29/17 1:31pm

QueenofCardboa
rd

avatar

Dasein said:

I'm not saying this applies to you, Monarch, but whenver some Christians say "I love you just as
you are," it really means, in my opinion:

I love you even though you are not living as righteously as I think you should be.

Finally, you cannot command someone to love another and expect the love expressed by the lover towards her beloved to have been given freely.

This is my major criticism of Christianity.


What does it matter if love is given freely given or not?

I love my in-laws because I am supposed to and they love me because they are supposed to,

and because, well, how could they not. biggrin

[Edited 1/29/17 13:56pm]

"I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters," Donald Trump
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #28 posted 01/29/17 2:28pm

Dasein

QueenofCardboard said:

Dasein said:

I'm not saying this applies to you, Monarch, but whenver some Christians say "I love you just as
you are," it really means, in my opinion:

I love you even though you are not living as righteously as I think you should be.

Finally, you cannot command someone to love another and expect the love expressed by the lover towards her beloved to have been given freely.

This is my major criticism of Christianity.


What does it matter if love is given freely given or not?

I love my in-laws because I am supposed to and they love me because they are supposed to,

and because, well, how could they not. biggrin

[Edited 1/29/17 13:56pm]


It matters to me: I place a premium on autheNticity and Turn my nose up at anything elsE. I'd
rather my lover tell me to fuck off theN to be in a loving relaTIONship with me but not on account
of her own volition.

I want to be as free as possible but can't if I'm being told to love someone.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #29 posted 01/29/17 2:42pm

QueenofCardboa
rd

avatar


I think that you and I are talking about different kinds of love.

The kind that I am talking about emphasizes ones behavior more than what is in ones heart.

Let's use another example.

I don't steal.

Sometimes I don't steal because I don't want the thing.

Sometimes I do want the thing, but I don't take it because I would feel guilty if I took it.

Sometimes I want to steal, but don't do it because I am afraid I would get caught.

In every case, I don't steal, regardless of what is in my heart.

Sometimes it doesn't matter what is in your heart, what really matters is what you do.



"I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters," Donald Trump
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Page 1 of 6 123456>
  New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Forums > Politics & Religion > From a Christian to a non Christian