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Reply #90 posted 01/11/17 9:04am

FunkOnTheOne

OnlyNDaUsa said:



FunkOnTheOne said:


OnlyNDaUsa said:




you are equivocating here! you are changing the meaning of "kill" when one is "murder" (unlawful killing of a human) one is an execution (killing someone lawfully after due process.)



Firstly it seems the difference between this guy and the state is merely paperwork in this case.

which IS the difference between a murder and a lawful killing. Justified and unjustified. if someone is killing people wouldn't deadly force be justified to stop him from continuing to kill?

Secondly, so if something is lawful it'seems fine?

Not at all what I said.


Lucky William Wilberforce didn't take that view with Slavery.


agreed



I actually think you are right about stopping someone who is killing people as an act of self-defence. For example,if police had no option but to shot him as he was killing others theye might well have to do so providing they couldn't stun or subdue him. However outside the field of conflict you have time to act calmly and without malice. It seems they are transposing justice with revenge. It's almost like a slow motion suicide by cops. I do think you make some really good and strong points on this.
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Reply #91 posted 01/11/17 9:12am

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

FunkOnTheOne said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

I actually think you are right about stopping someone who is killing people as an act of self-defence. For example,if police had no option but to shot him as he was killing others theye might well have to do so providing they couldn't stun or subdue him. However outside the field of conflict you have time to act calmly and without malice. It seems they are transposing justice with revenge. It's almost like a slow motion suicide by cops. I do think you make some really good and strong points on this.

so then you agree there are just reasons why an act that causes a death can be justified. So there is a line. The question is where is that line. I do however reject that it is always and act of revenge to put someone to death. It is also meant as a deterrent and it is one way to make sure that person can never kill again. Even if a person is in prison they could kill again. Right? It is not a 100% guarantee that they will never get out or never be able to kill anyone.

that being said: i have said on this site a number of times that as some people have been put to death that did not do the crime they were executed for I am more leaning to be opposed to the DP in most if not all cases. That is if pinned down I would say No to the DP. But that is not really the issue in this debate.

I am also opposed to torture but if i was sure someone KNEW how to stop something really bad from happening and time was off the essence... who knows what I might be personally willing to do to try to get the information needed to stop it.

With Love, Honor & Respect for all of you...no matter how I argue or disagree my heart is full of love for you all...
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Reply #92 posted 01/11/17 12:11pm

FunkOnTheOne

OnlyNDaUsa said:



FunkOnTheOne said:


OnlyNDaUsa said:




I actually think you are right about stopping someone who is killing people as an act of self-defence. For example,if police had no option but to shot him as he was killing others theye might well have to do so providing they couldn't stun or subdue him. However outside the field of conflict you have time to act calmly and without malice. It seems they are transposing justice with revenge. It's almost like a slow motion suicide by cops. I do think you make some really good and strong points on this.



so then you agree there are just reasons why an act that causes a death can be justified. So there is a line. The question is where is that line. I do however reject that it is always and act of revenge to put someone to death. It is also meant as a deterrent and it is one way to make sure that person can never kill again. Even if a person is in prison they could kill again. Right? It is not a 100% guarantee that they will never get out or never be able to kill anyone.

that being said: i have said on this site a number of times that as some people have been put to death that did not do the crime they were executed for I am more leaning to be opposed to the DP in most if not all cases. That is if pinned down I would say No to the DP. But that is not really the issue in this debate.

I am also opposed to torture but if i was sure someone KNEW how to stop something really bad from happening and time was off the essence... who knows what I might be personally willing to do to try to get the information needed to stop it.



A number of interesting points. Regarding torture this is a famous thought experiment which the Philosopher Michael Sandwell uses. The problem with torture is that you often get very unreliable results. If I was being tortured the only control, the only power I have is to give you a little bit of good information and then when it comes to the crucial part to give you the worst information I can. It's the only power I have.
As a deterrent most criminals don't think they will get caught and if they do it's too late to be a deterrent. We simply have life without parole in the UK and secure prisons. Ironically lifers usually are better behaved as they will live with any punishments for a long time. That said you are absolutely right they could potentially kill a prison guard or another inmate. In these extreme cases solitary confinement may be the only option.
In Sweden they are actually closing prisons as their focus is more on rehabilitation but in this case that cannot be an option.
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Reply #93 posted 01/11/17 12:19pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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FunkOnTheOne said:

A number of interesting points. Regarding torture this is a famous thought experiment which the Philosopher Michael Sandwell uses. The problem with torture is that you often get very unreliable results. If I was being tortured the only control, the only power I have is to give you a little bit of good information and then when it comes to the crucial part to give you the worst information I can. It's the only power I have.


I understand that which is why it would be used in a last-ditch desperate measure.



As a deterrent most criminals don't think they will get caught and if they do it's too late to be a deterrent.


I did not say how effective it was, i was talking about the motive behind it other than revenge. I will say in some cases (such as child abuse) it could very well lead to more murders as to eliminate witnesses.


We simply have life without parole in the UK and secure prisons. Ironically lifers usually are better behaved as they will live with any punishments for a long time.

So no one ever escapes? ever? and there is a benefit for a possibility for parole but that is a different story but i do think as you seem to suggest that there are ways to incentives good behavior without a parole chance.


That said you are absolutely right they could potentially kill a prison guard or another inmate. In these extreme cases solitary confinement may be the only option. In Sweden they are actually closing prisons as their focus is more on rehabilitation but in this case that cannot be an option.

It is defiantly more complex than simply throwing them in a hole...

With Love, Honor & Respect for all of you...no matter how I argue or disagree my heart is full of love for you all...
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Reply #94 posted 01/11/17 12:57pm

214

OnlyNDaUsa said:

FunkOnTheOne said:

214 said: Sof your argument is that because he killed he must be killed. Therefore as you have just killed you also must be killed. That's not justice more simply revenge.

you are equivocating here! you are changing the meaning of "kill" when one is "murder" (unlawful killing of a human) one is an execution (killing someone lawfully after due process.)

Exactly, it's not me but the State.

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Reply #95 posted 01/11/17 1:04pm

214

FunkOnTheOne said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

so then you agree there are just reasons why an act that causes a death can be justified. So there is a line. The question is where is that line. I do however reject that it is always and act of revenge to put someone to death. It is also meant as a deterrent and it is one way to make sure that person can never kill again. Even if a person is in prison they could kill again. Right? It is not a 100% guarantee that they will never get out or never be able to kill anyone.

that being said: i have said on this site a number of times that as some people have been put to death that did not do the crime they were executed for I am more leaning to be opposed to the DP in most if not all cases. That is if pinned down I would say No to the DP. But that is not really the issue in this debate.

I am also opposed to torture but if i was sure someone KNEW how to stop something really bad from happening and time was off the essence... who knows what I might be personally willing to do to try to get the information needed to stop it.

. In Sweden they are actually closing prisons as their focus is more on rehabilitation but in this case that cannot be an option.

Rehabilitation? please those kind of monsters do not deserve to get back to their lives, if anything, let those bastards on a cell for their rest of their lives without any kind of human contact, not their families not anyone.

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Reply #96 posted 01/11/17 1:06pm

214

OnlyNDaUsa said:

FunkOnTheOne said:

A number of interesting points. Regarding torture this is a famous thought experiment which the Philosopher Michael Sandwell uses. The problem with torture is that you often get very unreliable results. If I was being tortured the only control, the only power I have is to give you a little bit of good information and then when it comes to the crucial part to give you the worst information I can. It's the only power I have.


I understand that which is why it would be used in a last-ditch desperate measure.



As a deterrent most criminals don't think they will get caught and if they do it's too late to be a deterrent.


I did not say how effective it was, i was talking about the motive behind it other than revenge. I will say in some cases (such as child abuse) it could very well lead to more murders as to eliminate witnesses.


We simply have life without parole in the UK and secure prisons. Ironically lifers usually are better behaved as they will live with any punishments for a long time.

So no one ever escapes? ever? and there is a benefit for a possibility for parole but that is a different story but i do think as you seem to suggest that there are ways to incentives good behavior without a parole chance.


That said you are absolutely right they could potentially kill a prison guard or another inmate. In these extreme cases solitary confinement may be the only option. In Sweden they are actually closing prisons as their focus is more on rehabilitation but in this case that cannot be an option.

It is defiantly more complex than simply throwing them in a hole...

Why?

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Reply #97 posted 01/11/17 1:09pm

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

214 said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Why?

because there is more to it than just punishment and keeping them out of society. it is not just a let them work it all out issue. there needs to be some means to move towards redemption.

With Love, Honor & Respect for all of you...no matter how I argue or disagree my heart is full of love for you all...
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Reply #98 posted 01/11/17 1:11pm

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

214 said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

you are equivocating here! you are changing the meaning of "kill" when one is "murder" (unlawful killing of a human) one is an execution (killing someone lawfully after due process.)

Exactly, it's not me but the State.

not what i said or what i was getting at. i am not sure if you see that there are times when killing someone my be the best option and would not be murder.

With Love, Honor & Respect for all of you...no matter how I argue or disagree my heart is full of love for you all...
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Reply #99 posted 01/11/17 1:44pm

214

OnlyNDaUsa said:

214 said:

Why?

because there is more to it than just punishment and keeping them out of society. it is not just a let them work it all out issue. there needs to be some means to move towards redemption.

What are you talkin about, redemption from who?

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Reply #100 posted 01/11/17 1:47pm

214

OnlyNDaUsa said:

214 said:

Exactly, it's not me but the State.

not what i said or what i was getting at. i am not sure if you see that there are times when killing someone my be the best option and would not be murder.

And when someone commits such crimes, the best option is killing them or use them in a very useful way in benefit to society like experimentation. Not in all cases just in cases like torture, child abuse, animal abuse, terrorism,sexual exploitation etc.

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Reply #101 posted 01/12/17 9:28pm

AbstractPoetic
91

avatar

When the story first came out, the media was going out their way to humanize this racist piece of garbage but not the innocent nine black folks who were senselessly killed in a HISTORICALLY Black church.

The media was overshadowing the victims' lost lives, but giving this fucker so much attention to his childhood pictures and mentally analyzing him.

One idiot on the news asked why the church members didn't have guns, I'm like bitch wtf should they have guns for?

I'll never forget when one relative of one of the victims forgave that monster, I honestly wanted to knock her silly ass out and the media was looping that audio track over and over again, like some brainwashing bullshit.

Black people are way too forgiving and they need to stop with this passive shit.

One woman who was protesting was telling black people to get off their knees and stop praying, I have never clapped so much in my life.

"I'm The N-To The A-to the S-I-R and if I wasn't I must have been Escobar"
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Reply #102 posted 01/13/17 3:48am

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

AbstractPoetic91 said:

When the story first came out, the media was going out their way to humanize this racist piece of garbage but not the innocent nine black folks who were senselessly killed in a HISTORICALLY Black church.

There may have been a VERY few but the vast majority of media never did that.

The media was overshadowing the victims' lost lives, but giving this fucker so much attention to his childhood pictures and mentally analyzing him.

i do not recall and childhood photos... maybe they did... but i never once heard any major outlet say anything in DR defence.

One idiot on the news asked why the church members didn't have guns, I'm like bitch wtf should they have guns for?

in caase someone comes in with a gun and starts shooting? Do you think guns should be banned by LAW from churches? and didn't since this case, didn't a preacher shoot some guy who came in with a gun?

I'll never forget when one relative of one of the victims forgave that monster, I honestly wanted to knock her silly ass out and the media was looping that audio track over and over again, like some brainwashing bullshit.

I am trying to understand your reaction but wow? you really wanted to harm a person for forgiving him? Someone who actually suffered a personal loss? As to the rest you are assuming a motive you simply can not support.

Black people are way too forgiving and they need to stop with this passive shit.

it is only passive after the fact. it is odd you get all twisted that they forgave him but also got all mad at the suggestion they were armed? Which is it?

One woman who was protesting was telling black people to get off their knees and stop praying, I have never clapped so much in my life.


If you want to be for the rights of one group then why are you so mad that other practice their rights? Seems contradictory? It is like you expect...almost demad people react like you! Yet question their right to self defence and then get mad when they forgive or seek comfort in prayer?

With Love, Honor & Respect for all of you...no matter how I argue or disagree my heart is full of love for you all...
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Reply #103 posted 01/13/17 11:00am

AbstractPoetic
91

avatar

OnlyNDaUsa said:



AbstractPoetic91 said:


When the story first came out, the media was going out their way to humanize this racist piece of garbage but not the innocent nine black folks who were senselessly killed in a HISTORICALLY Black church.

There may have been a VERY few but the vast majority of media never did that.



The media was overshadowing the victims' lost lives, but giving this fucker so much attention to his childhood pictures and mentally analyzing him.

i do not recall and childhood photos... maybe they did... but i never once heard any major outlet say anything in DR defence.



One idiot on the news asked why the church members didn't have guns, I'm like bitch wtf should they have guns for?

in caase someone comes in with a gun and starts shooting? Do you think guns should be banned by LAW from churches? and didn't since this case, didn't a preacher shoot some guy who came in with a gun?



I'll never forget when one relative of one of the victims forgave that monster, I honestly wanted to knock her silly ass out and the media was looping that audio track over and over again, like some brainwashing bullshit.

I am trying to understand your reaction but wow? you really wanted to harm a person for forgiving him? Someone who actually suffered a personal loss? As to the rest you are assuming a motive you simply can not support.



Black people are way too forgiving and they need to stop with this passive shit.

it is only passive after the fact. it is odd you get all twisted that they forgave him but also got all mad at the suggestion they were armed? Which is it?



One woman who was protesting was telling black people to get off their knees and stop praying, I have never clapped so much in my life.


If you want to be for the rights of one group then why are you so mad that other practice their rights? Seems contradictory? It is like you expect...almost demad people react like you! Yet question their right to self defence and then get mad when they forgive or seek comfort in prayer?





It's a shame you wasted all that time replying to me because I didn't bother to read it except for the guns be banned from church part. Who the fuck was suggesting that though? We do we have to have a fun at church in order to feel safer? I guess they might as well since this country has a long history of attacking black churches. I don't know why you feel the need to respond to me knowing that I don't care for you like that. This will be my last time ever responding to you.
[Edited 1/13/17 11:05am]
"I'm The N-To The A-to the S-I-R and if I wasn't I must have been Escobar"
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Reply #104 posted 01/13/17 11:48am

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

AbstractPoetic91 said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

It's a shame you wasted all that time replying to me because I didn't bother to read it except for the guns be banned from church part. Who the fuck was suggesting that though? We do we have to have a fun at church in order to feel safer? I guess they might as well since this country has a long history of attacking black churches. I don't know why you feel the need to respond to me knowing that I don't care for you like that. This will be my last time ever responding to you. [Edited 1/13/17 11:05am]

you said "One idiot on the news asked why the church members didn't have guns, I'm like bitch wtf should they have guns for? "

and i did not say you want to ban guns... but again you ask why should we have guns at church? the roof murders seem to answer that question. as far as you responding or not to me...that it cool. but i will reserve the right to respond to you. I know there is at least one person I very rarely reply to and another I might be better off if i did...


but i am perplexed why you can not handle a friendly and civil discussion?

With Love, Honor & Respect for all of you...no matter how I argue or disagree my heart is full of love for you all...
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Reply #105 posted 01/13/17 12:06pm

2freaky4church
1

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Are guns dangerous?

"2freaky is a complete stud." DJ
"2freaky is very down." 2Elijah.
"2freaky convinced me to join Antifa: OnlyNDA
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Reply #106 posted 01/13/17 12:07pm

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

2freaky4church1 said:

Are guns dangerous?

no. people are dangerous. people do dangerous things with guns. but a gun by itself. harmless.

With Love, Honor & Respect for all of you...no matter how I argue or disagree my heart is full of love for you all...
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Reply #107 posted 01/14/17 2:03am

free2bfreeda

OnlyNDaUsa said:

2freaky4church1 said:

Are guns dangerous?

no. people are dangerous. people do dangerous things with guns. but a gun by itself. harmless.

MUG SHOT Dylann Storm Roof

too bad dylann roof (a dangerous person) made his gun dangerous instead of harmless.

“Transracial is a term that has long since been defined as the adoption of a child that is of a different race than the adoptive parents,” : https://thinkprogress.org...fb6e18544a
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Reply #108 posted 01/14/17 6:14am

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

free2bfreeda said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

no. people are dangerous. people do dangerous things with guns. but a gun by itself. harmless.

MUG SHOT Dylann Storm Roof

too bad dylann roof (a dangerous person) made his gun dangerous instead of harmless.

and he the person that broke the law will be punished and not the other people or other guns that did nothing wrong. you may hold a fear of guns. you may hold a fear of people.

With Love, Honor & Respect for all of you...no matter how I argue or disagree my heart is full of love for you all...
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Reply #109 posted 01/14/17 8:25am

2freaky4church
1

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In some ways the Chicago police are worse.

"2freaky is a complete stud." DJ
"2freaky is very down." 2Elijah.
"2freaky convinced me to join Antifa: OnlyNDA
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Reply #110 posted 01/14/17 8:36am

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

2freaky4church1 said:

In some ways the Chicago police are worse.

I agree that democrats have a LONG history of that... i am not sure it is a valid comparison to make...

With Love, Honor & Respect for all of you...no matter how I argue or disagree my heart is full of love for you all...
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Reply #111 posted 01/14/17 8:40am

2freaky4church
1

avatar

Democrats? lol I've only been here a hundred years ripping them.

"2freaky is a complete stud." DJ
"2freaky is very down." 2Elijah.
"2freaky convinced me to join Antifa: OnlyNDA
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Reply #112 posted 01/14/17 11:40am

uPtoWnNY

AbstractPoetic91 said:

When the story first came out, the media was going out their way to humanize this racist piece of garbage but not the innocent nine black folks who were senselessly killed in a HISTORICALLY Black church.

The media was overshadowing the victims' lost lives, but giving this fucker so much attention to his childhood pictures and mentally analyzing him.

One idiot on the news asked why the church members didn't have guns, I'm like bitch wtf should they have guns for?

I'll never forget when one relative of one of the victims forgave that monster, I honestly wanted to knock her silly ass out and the media was looping that audio track over and over again, like some brainwashing bullshit.

Black people are way too forgiving and they need to stop with this passive shit.

One woman who was protesting was telling black people to get off their knees and stop praying, I have never clapped so much in my life.

THANK YOU!!! I've been saying that for years, and it's a big reason I turned my back on that religious bullshit. It has brainwashed our people.....some racist piece of shit fucks with us, what do we do? We hold hands, we pray & forgive, while our enemies laugh at us. I want NO part of a philosophy that tells me I have to love a racist. Black folks need to wake up, put down that book of fairy tales and arm themselves, just like white folks.

You know what my bible is - The Autobiography of Malcolm X. He was right all along, but too many of us didn't listen. Fortunately, my father did. wink

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Reply #113 posted 01/14/17 11:50am

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

uPtoWnNY said:

AbstractPoetic91 said:

When the story first came out, the media was going out their way to humanize this racist piece of garbage but not the innocent nine black folks who were senselessly killed in a HISTORICALLY Black church.

The media was overshadowing the victims' lost lives, but giving this fucker so much attention to his childhood pictures and mentally analyzing him.

One idiot on the news asked why the church members didn't have guns, I'm like bitch wtf should they have guns for?

I'll never forget when one relative of one of the victims forgave that monster, I honestly wanted to knock her silly ass out and the media was looping that audio track over and over again, like some brainwashing bullshit.

Black people are way too forgiving and they need to stop with this passive shit.

One woman who was protesting was telling black people to get off their knees and stop praying, I have never clapped so much in my life.

THANK YOU!!! I've been saying that for years, and it's a big reason I turned my back on that religious bullshit. It has brainwashed our people.....some racist piece of shit fucks with us, what do we do? We hold hands, we pray & forgive, while our enemies laugh at us. I want NO part of a philosophy that tells me I have to love a racist. Black folks need to wake up, put down that book of fairy tales and arm themselves, just like white folks.

You know what my bible is - The Autobiography of Malcolm X. He was right all along, but too many of us didn't listen. Fortunately, my father did. wink

interesting as I bet Malcolm would be all for having guns in a church in the even the need for self-defense arose... but it has been 20+ years since i read that book... good read...

With Love, Honor & Respect for all of you...no matter how I argue or disagree my heart is full of love for you all...
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Reply #114 posted 01/14/17 6:10pm

uPtoWnNY

Malcolm X provided uncompromising straight talk on race, social justice & american hypocrisy. His words are just as powerful today, and its words that I live by.

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Reply #115 posted 01/14/17 11:37pm

Pokeno4Money

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uPtoWnNY said:

Malcolm X provided uncompromising straight talk on race, social justice & american hypocrisy. His words are just as powerful today, and its words that I live by.


Much of what he said doesn't apply today. A lot has changed in the past half century since his death.

"As a team, we have chosen to stand and interlock arms in unity. We honor those who have fought for the freedom we cherish. And we stand to ensure the riches and freedom and the security of justice for all people." --- Doug Baldwin
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Reply #116 posted 01/14/17 11:45pm

AbstractPoetic
91

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Ain't nothing changed...It simply mainfested in other forms...

"I'm The N-To The A-to the S-I-R and if I wasn't I must have been Escobar"
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Reply #117 posted 01/14/17 11:46pm

AbstractPoetic
91

avatar

uPtoWnNY said:

Malcolm X provided uncompromising straight talk on race, social justice & american hypocrisy. His words are just as powerful today, and its words that I live by.

Sometimes I wished people would have listened to Malcolm X more.

"I'm The N-To The A-to the S-I-R and if I wasn't I must have been Escobar"
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Reply #118 posted 01/15/17 5:27am

uPtoWnNY

AbstractPoetic91 said:

Ain't nothing changed...It simply mainfested in other forms...

So true. I've been around more than a half century - laws have changed, opportunities have gotten better, but anyone who thinks the fight for equality/social justice is over is living in dreamland. Malcolm X's autobiography & "Malcolm X Speaks" should be in EVERY black american household. His words are just as powerful today, especially when he talked about our country's "chickens coming home to roost".

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Reply #119 posted 01/15/17 5:29am

2elijah

avatar

uPtoWnNY said:



AbstractPoetic91 said:


Ain't nothing changed...It simply mainfested in other forms...





So true. I've been around more than a half century - laws have changed, opportunities have gotten better, but anyone who thinks the fight for equality/social justice is over is living in dreamland. Malcolm X's autobiography & "Malcolm X Speaks" should be in EVERY black american household. His words are just as powerful today, especially when he talked about our country's "chickens coming home to roost".


Absolutely!!
'Trump voters got Hoodwinked by Trump' popcorn coke
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