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Thread started 06/18/12 11:12am

seekingtruth

10 Problems on their Way via Obamacare

This article was a bit misplaced in my opinion, but the points are still legitimate. Although I did know that a large percentage of Doctors are planning an exit from the industry once Obamacare hits, I was unfamiliar with some of the other points.

http://www.nationalreview...rie-turner

1. Higher cost of insurance. During the 2008 presidential campaign, Senator Obama promised that average premiums for a family would go down by $2,500 by 2012 as a result of his proposed reforms, but they actually have gone up by nearly that much — from $12,680 in 2008 to $15,073 in 2011, according to Kaiser Family Foundation data. And the Congressional Budget Office found that Obamacare’s new insurance mandates will raise premiums in the individual market by an additional $2,100 per family. That’s just the beginning. There are at least 20 new or higher taxes in Obamacare that will be passed along to consumers in the form of higher premiums, including taxes on medical devices and health-insurance premiums. This is bad news for women trying to keep coverage while managing a tight family budget.

2. Losing your current insurance. The administration itself estimates that 51 to 80 percent of Americans will lose their current health insurance because their policies won’t qualify as acceptable under Obamacare rules. As many as 20 million people could lose the insurance they get at work as a result of Obamacare, according to the CBO. McKinsey and Co. says as many as 80 million people could be forced to change policies to comply with the law’s requirements. Other studies have shown that at least a third of businesses are considering dropping coverage because of the costly Obamacare mandates. This is bad news for women who want stability and control over their health insurance.

3. Dependents losing coverage. One of the perverse risks of Obamacare is that it could cause families who are relying on employer insurance to lose their coverage. Under the law, employers must offer affordable insurance to their employees; Washington will deem a policy unaffordable if an employee’s premium is more than 9.5 percent of his or her household income. This means that for a household income of $30,000, if the premium is more than $2,850, the coverage is considered unaffordable. Then the worker is eligible to go to the Exchanges for taxpayer-subsidized insurance. The only problem is that the subsidized insurance will be only for the worker and not for dependents. Families could lose coverage at work and be ineligible for subsidies in the Exchanges.

4. Unintended consequences. One of the first provisions of Obamacare to be implemented requires employers that offer dependent coverage to allow children to stay on their parents’ policies up to age 26. But some families are finding that this has a dark side: Firms and other organizations are finding they can’t afford the added cost and are dropping dependent coverage altogether. Soon after the law passed, the 1199SEIU local of the Service Employees International Union announced that it was dropping dependent coverage: “. . . new federal health-care reform legislation requires plans with dependent coverage to expand that coverage up to age 26,” Mitra Behroozi, executive director of benefits and pension funds, wrote in a letter to members. “Our limited resources are already stretched as far as possible, and meeting this new requirement would be financially impossible.”

5. Conscience and the mandate. The administration has forced a debate over reproductive issues by mandating that most employers must provide insurance coveragethat gives free access to sterilization, contraception, and drugs that cause abortion. All women will have access to the mandated services at no extra charge, even if they work for a religious organization such as a Catholic hospital, university, or charity whose religious beliefs are violated by the mandate. Private employers, including women business owners, will be unable to exercise their own right of conscience with regard to services they consider to be morally offensive.

6. Vulnerable Americans hit hardest. The new health law could shred the Medicaid safety net because it does not increase capacity or make desperately needed structural reforms to Medicaid but simply drives more people into the program. Current Medicaid recipients, most of whom have few if any other options for coverage, will soon be forced to compete for care with the 16 to 25 million people being added to the program. Dr. Edward Miller, the dean of Johns Hopkins Medicine, argued in a 2009 Wall Street Journal article entitled “Health Reform Could Harm ...d Patients” that our system simply doesn’t have the capacity to absorb so many more patients so quickly. It will become that much harder for a mother on Medicaid to find a doctor for an ill child.

7. Loss of control. One of the things that women want most is more control over decisions involving health care for their families. Under Obamacare, those decisions will be made, not by parents, but by bureaucrats at the 159 new agencies and boards in Washington that will control our health-care system. Already a government agency has recommended restricting access to mammograms. That is only the beginning of government rationing of care as boards such as the Independent Payment Advisory Board decide to cut payments for providers and procedures.

8. The doctor shortage. We need at least 160,000 more physicians just to meet the demands of a growing and aging population. A 2010 survey by athenahealth and Sermo found that 66 percent of doctors are seriously considering dropping out of Medicare and Medicaid, and 53 percent are considering opting out of all third-party insurance. A more recent survey said that as many as 46 percent of doctors are planning to leave medical practice when Obamacare fully kicks in. Meanwhile, there will be 30 million more people in the health-insurance market. Waiting times will grow, as they have in Massachusetts, where a forerunner of Obamacare is in effect; some patients there wait up to 100 days to get an appointment with a primary-care doctor. With many fewer physicians, women and their families will find it harder and harder to find a doctor to see them.

9. Losing full-time jobs. Many mothers must juggle a full-time job with full-time family responsibilities. But Obamacare’s employer mandate means they could face an even bigger challenge: holding onto that full-time job. Here’s why: The law forces employers with more than 50 employees to provide expensive health insurance to full-time workers or pay a big fine. Many employers are seriously considering cutting their full-time employees to 25 hours a week so they can avoid the costly mandate.

10. Child-only policies vanishing. Children are most commonly insured along with their parents, but child-only policies have been available for families where the parents’ insurance doesn’t cover dependents. Under a provision of Obamacare that went into effect in 2010, insurers can no longer refuse to sell such a policy because of a preexisting condition. This means that parents or guardians could wait to purchase policies until their children got sick. In at least 17 states, insurers have pulled out of the child-only market, saying they would face “adverse selection” because the new rule destroys the basis for shared insurance against risk.


True genius is knowing how little
you really know.
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Reply #1 posted 06/18/12 11:50am

rudedog

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I love how NONE of this is source (minus the poll at the end, just proves how sucessful Republican's fear and hate rhetoric worked on Americans) and is purely ad-hominem

[Edited 6/18/12 11:55am]

"The voter is less important than the man who provides money to the candidate," - Former Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens
Rudedog no no no!
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Reply #2 posted 06/18/12 12:02pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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rudedog said:

I love how NONE of this is source (minus the poll at the end, just proves how sucessful Republican's fear and hate rhetoric worked on Americans) and is purely ad-hominem

[Edited 6/18/12 11:55am]

none of it will matter in a few days.

FYI: there are some Orgers I ignore. So when I do not reply to them... that is why.
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Reply #3 posted 06/18/12 8:41pm

V10LETBLUES

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I have a short attention span, but I will try and get back to this thread later when I google the 10 claims listed.

innocent
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Reply #4 posted 06/18/12 9:07pm

RodeoSchro

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Once again, if you think any doctor is going to give up the only thing he knows - the profession for which he went to school for 8 years, did 3 years' residency, and then spent years establishing a practice - if you think any doctor is going to give up that hard-earned livelihood (his only livelihood in most cases) because he isn't going to make as much money as he used to, well then I have some oceanfront property in Arizona I'd like to show you.

Second Funkiest White Man in America

Rocket Frog
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Reply #5 posted 06/18/12 9:09pm

13cjk13

avatar

seekingtruth said:

This article was a bit misplaced in my opinion, but the points are still legitimate. Although I did know that a large percentage of Doctors are planning an exit from the industry once Obamacare hits, I was unfamiliar with some of the other points.

http://www.nationalreview...rie-turner

1. Higher cost of insurance. During the 2008 presidential campaign, Senator Obama promised that average premiums for a family would go down by $2,500 by 2012 as a result of his proposed reforms, but they actually have gone up by nearly that much — from $12,680 in 2008 to $15,073 in 2011, according to Kaiser Family Foundation data. And the Congressional Budget Office found that Obamacare’s new insurance mandates will raise premiums in the individual market by an additional $2,100 per family. That’s just the beginning. There are at least 20 new or higher taxes in Obamacare that will be passed along to consumers in the form of higher premiums, including taxes on medical devices and health-insurance premiums. This is bad news for women trying to keep coverage while managing a tight family budget.

2. Losing your current insurance. The administration itself estimates that 51 to 80 percent of Americans will lose their current health insurance because their policies won’t qualify as acceptable under Obamacare rules. As many as 20 million people could lose the insurance they get at work as a result of Obamacare, according to the CBO. McKinsey and Co. says as many as 80 million people could be forced to change policies to comply with the law’s requirements. Other studies have shown that at least a third of businesses are considering dropping coverage because of the costly Obamacare mandates. This is bad news for women who want stability and control over their health insurance.

3. Dependents losing coverage. One of the perverse risks of Obamacare is that it could cause families who are relying on employer insurance to lose their coverage. Under the law, employers must offer affordable insurance to their employees; Washington will deem a policy unaffordable if an employee’s premium is more than 9.5 percent of his or her household income. This means that for a household income of $30,000, if the premium is more than $2,850, the coverage is considered unaffordable. Then the worker is eligible to go to the Exchanges for taxpayer-subsidized insurance. The only problem is that the subsidized insurance will be only for the worker and not for dependents. Families could lose coverage at work and be ineligible for subsidies in the Exchanges.

4. Unintended consequences. One of the first provisions of Obamacare to be implemented requires employers that offer dependent coverage to allow children to stay on their parents’ policies up to age 26. But some families are finding that this has a dark side: Firms and other organizations are finding they can’t afford the added cost and are dropping dependent coverage altogether. Soon after the law passed, the 1199SEIU local of the Service Employees International Union announced that it was dropping dependent coverage: “. . . new federal health-care reform legislation requires plans with dependent coverage to expand that coverage up to age 26,” Mitra Behroozi, executive director of benefits and pension funds, wrote in a letter to members. “Our limited resources are already stretched as far as possible, and meeting this new requirement would be financially impossible.”

5. Conscience and the mandate. The administration has forced a debate over reproductive issues by mandating that most employers must provide insurance coveragethat gives free access to sterilization, contraception, and drugs that cause abortion. All women will have access to the mandated services at no extra charge, even if they work for a religious organization such as a Catholic hospital, university, or charity whose religious beliefs are violated by the mandate. Private employers, including women business owners, will be unable to exercise their own right of conscience with regard to services they consider to be morally offensive.

6. Vulnerable Americans hit hardest. The new health law could shred the Medicaid safety net because it does not increase capacity or make desperately needed structural reforms to Medicaid but simply drives more people into the program. Current Medicaid recipients, most of whom have few if any other options for coverage, will soon be forced to compete for care with the 16 to 25 million people being added to the program. Dr. Edward Miller, the dean of Johns Hopkins Medicine, argued in a 2009 Wall Street Journal article entitled “Health Reform Could Harm ...d Patients” that our system simply doesn’t have the capacity to absorb so many more patients so quickly. It will become that much harder for a mother on Medicaid to find a doctor for an ill child.

7. Loss of control. One of the things that women want most is more control over decisions involving health care for their families. Under Obamacare, those decisions will be made, not by parents, but by bureaucrats at the 159 new agencies and boards in Washington that will control our health-care system. Already a government agency has recommended restricting access to mammograms. That is only the beginning of government rationing of care as boards such as the Independent Payment Advisory Board decide to cut payments for providers and procedures.

8. The doctor shortage. We need at least 160,000 more physicians just to meet the demands of a growing and aging population. A 2010 survey by athenahealth and Sermo found that 66 percent of doctors are seriously considering dropping out of Medicare and Medicaid, and 53 percent are considering opting out of all third-party insurance. A more recent survey said that as many as 46 percent of doctors are planning to leave medical practice when Obamacare fully kicks in. Meanwhile, there will be 30 million more people in the health-insurance market. Waiting times will grow, as they have in Massachusetts, where a forerunner of Obamacare is in effect; some patients there wait up to 100 days to get an appointment with a primary-care doctor. With many fewer physicians, women and their families will find it harder and harder to find a doctor to see them.

9. Losing full-time jobs. Many mothers must juggle a full-time job with full-time family responsibilities. But Obamacare’s employer mandate means they could face an even bigger challenge: holding onto that full-time job. Here’s why: The law forces employers with more than 50 employees to provide expensive health insurance to full-time workers or pay a big fine. Many employers are seriously considering cutting their full-time employees to 25 hours a week so they can avoid the costly mandate.

10. Child-only policies vanishing. Children are most commonly insured along with their parents, but child-only policies have been available for families where the parents’ insurance doesn’t cover dependents. Under a provision of Obamacare that went into effect in 2010, insurers can no longer refuse to sell such a policy because of a preexisting condition. This means that parents or guardians could wait to purchase policies until their children got sick. In at least 17 states, insurers have pulled out of the child-only market, saying they would face “adverse selection” because the new rule destroys the basis for shared insurance against risk.


Lions and tigers and bears, oh my.

"I do not provide links because I do not get my information in that manner."
I have not said all of them never are.
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Reply #6 posted 06/19/12 1:43am

Mistadobalina

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10 Problems on their Way without Obamacare

1. People will die. Without Obamacare many people will die because they are denied insurance or can not afford it. Christians and Voodoo men will not care, because for unknow reasons they believe there would be some hocus pocus afterlife. Rational men however care about other human beings, while they are still here on earth.

2. People will die. Without Obamacare many people will die because they are denied insurance or can not afford it. Christians and Voodoo men will not care, because for unknow reasons they believe there would be some hocus pocus afterlife. Rational men however care about other human beings, while they are still here on earth.

3. People will die. Without Obamacare many people will die because they are denied insurance or can not afford it. Christians and Voodoo men will not care, because for unknow reasons they believe there would be some hocus pocus afterlife. Rational men however care about other human beings, while they are still here on earth.

4. People will die. Without Obamacare many people will die because they are denied insurance or can not afford it. Christians and Voodoo men will not care, because for unknow reasons they believe there would be some hocus pocus afterlife. Rational men however care about other human beings, while they are still here on earth.

5. People will die. Without Obamacare many people will die because they are denied insurance or can not afford it. Christians and Voodoo men will not care, because for unknow reasons they believe there would be some hocus pocus afterlife. Rational men however care about other human beings, while they are still here on earth.

6. People will die. Without Obamacare many people will die because they are denied insurance or can not afford it. Christians and Voodoo men will not care, because for unknow reasons they believe there would be some hocus pocus afterlife. Rational men however care about other human beings, while they are still here on earth.

7. People will die. Without Obamacare many people will die because they are denied insurance or can not afford it. Christians and Voodoo men will not care, because for unknow reasons they believe there would be some hocus pocus afterlife. Rational men however care about other human beings, while they are still here on earth.

8. People will die. Without Obamacare many people will die because they are denied insurance or can not afford it. Christians and Voodoo men will not care, because for unknow reasons they believe there would be some hocus pocus afterlife. Rational men however care about other human beings, while they are still here on earth.

9. People will die. Without Obamacare many people will die because they are denied insurance or can not afford it. Christians and Voodoo men will not care, because for unknow reasons they believe there would be some hocus pocus afterlife. Rational men however care about other human beings, while they are still here on earth.

10. People will die. Without Obamacare many people will die because they are denied insurance or can not afford it. Christians and Voodoo men will not care, because for unknow reasons they believe there would be some hocus pocus afterlife. Rational men however care about other human beings, while they are still here on earth.

[Edited 6/19/12 1:45am]

The Compromise Theory:
Based on my analysis, I believe the government faked the plane crash and demolished the WTC North Tower with explosives.
The South Tower, in a simultaneous but unrelated plot was brought down by actual terrorists.
Is it a deal?
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Reply #7 posted 06/19/12 5:17am

seekingtruth

RodeoSchro said:

Once again, if you think any doctor is going to give up the only thing he knows - the profession for which he went to school for 8 years, did 3 years' residency, and then spent years establishing a practice - if you think any doctor is going to give up that hard-earned livelihood (his only livelihood in most cases) because he isn't going to make as much money as he used to, well then I have some oceanfront property in Arizona I'd like to show you.

You don't understand the profession.

I have had conversations with 2 different doctors who are in that 46%. There are other areas they can work where they don't have to deal with all the headaches that are going to comprise their profession.

You don't understand the issue. It's not the lack of money. Doctors can recoup that income in other ways. It's about the headaches and hurdles that come with endless regulation.

True genius is knowing how little
you really know.
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Reply #8 posted 06/19/12 5:18am

seekingtruth

rudedog said:

I love how NONE of this is source (minus the poll at the end, just proves how sucessful Republican's fear and hate rhetoric worked on Americans) and is purely ad-hominem

[Edited 6/18/12 11:55am]

I guess I could have used sources like you do. Any "out there" website you get some oped off of.

True genius is knowing how little
you really know.
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Reply #9 posted 06/19/12 5:19am

seekingtruth

rudedog said:

I love how NONE of this is source (minus the poll at the end, just proves how sucessful Republican's fear and hate rhetoric worked on Americans) and is purely ad-hominem

[Edited 6/18/12 11:55am]

And btw.....

The Kaiser Foundation was one source. By using the links in the post, you can access the actual report.....

True genius is knowing how little
you really know.
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Reply #10 posted 06/19/12 5:40am

Mistadobalina

avatar

seekingtruth said:

1. Higher cost of insurance.

1. Translation: Americans are too stupid. Americans are simply unable to properly get something done, that works in all other civilized countries sicne many decades. They can not provide health care to all of their citizens. They have enough money and resources. So the problem must be lack of intelligence.

2. Losing your current insurance.

2. Translation: Americans are too stupid. Americans are simply unable to properly get something done, that works in all other civilized countries sicne many decades. They can not provide health care to all of their citizens. They have enough money and resources. So the problem must be lack of intelligence.

3. Dependents losing coverage.

2. Translation: Americans are too stupid. Americans are simply unable to properly get something done, that works in all other civilized countries sicne many decades. They can not provide health care to all of their citizens. They have enough money and resources. So the problem must be lack of intelligence.

4. Unintended consequences.

4. Translation: Americans are too stupid. Americans are simply unable to properly get something done, that works in all other civilized countries sicne many decades. They can not provide health care to all of their citizens. They have enough money and resources. So the problem must be lack of intelligence.

5. Conscience and the mandate.

5. Translation: Americans are too stupid. Americans are simply unable to properly get something done, that works in all other civilized countries sicne many decades. They can not provide health care to all of their citizens. They have enough money and resources. So the problem must be lack of intelligence.

6. Vulnerable Americans hit hardest.

6. Translation: Americans are too stupid. Americans are simply unable to properly get something done, that works in all other civilized countries sicne many decades. They can not provide health care to all of their citizens. They have enough money and resources. So the problem must be lack of intelligence.

7. Loss of control.

7. Translation: Americans are too stupid. Americans are simply unable to properly get something done, that works in all other civilized countries sicne many decades. They can not provide health care to all of their citizens. They have enough money and resources. So the problem must be lack of intelligence.

8. The doctor shortage.

8. Translation: Americans are too stupid. Americans are simply unable to properly get something done, that works in all other civilized countries sicne many decades. They can not provide health care to all of their citizens. They have enough money and resources. So the problem must be lack of intelligence.

9. Losing full-time jobs.

9. Translation: Americans are too stupid. Americans are simply unable to properly get something done, that works in all other civilized countries sicne many decades. They can not provide health care to all of their citizens. They have enough money and resources. So the problem must be lack of intelligence.

10. Child-only policies vanishing.

10. Translation: Americans are too stupid. Americans are simply unable to properly get something done, that works in all other civilized countries sicne many decades. They can not provide health care to all of their citizens. They have enough money and resources. So the problem must be lack of intelligence.


The Compromise Theory:
Based on my analysis, I believe the government faked the plane crash and demolished the WTC North Tower with explosives.
The South Tower, in a simultaneous but unrelated plot was brought down by actual terrorists.
Is it a deal?
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #11 posted 06/19/12 5:41am

RodeoSchro

avatar

seekingtruth said:

RodeoSchro said:

Once again, if you think any doctor is going to give up the only thing he knows - the profession for which he went to school for 8 years, did 3 years' residency, and then spent years establishing a practice - if you think any doctor is going to give up that hard-earned livelihood (his only livelihood in most cases) because he isn't going to make as much money as he used to, well then I have some oceanfront property in Arizona I'd like to show you.

You don't understand the profession.

I have had conversations with 2 different doctors who are in that 46%. There are other areas they can work where they don't have to deal with all the headaches that are going to comprise their profession.

You don't understand the issue. It's not the lack of money. Doctors can recoup that income in other ways. It's about the headaches and hurdles that come with endless regulation.

You said they were going to "exit the industry". If they leave medicine altogether, what industry is next for them? Plumbing?

You either misspoke, or exaggerated your claim.

I am 100% confident that there will not be a mass exodus of doctors leaving the only industry for which they are trained. Will some retire? Sure. But quit?

Nope.

Second Funkiest White Man in America

Rocket Frog
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Reply #12 posted 06/19/12 5:44am

Shanti0608

So what is the solution to many Americans not being able to afford healthcare and going into debt over it?

I would like a viable solution if you are going to shoot down what the current president has to offer.

[Edited 6/19/12 5:45am]

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Reply #13 posted 06/19/12 5:45am

Mistadobalina

avatar

seekingtruth said:

This article was a bit misplaced in my opinion, but the points are still legitimate. Although I did know that a large percentage of Doctors are planning an exit from the industry once Obamacare hits, I was unfamiliar with some of the other points.

utter shite

like a large percentage of US citizens would leave the US if Bush got relected?

just talking loud and saying nothing.

noone is gonna flush their education down the toilet and go to pump gas at the station instead. if you believe those shitters, you're even more naive than I thought.

actually, no, I take that back. you are exactly as naive as I thought.

The Compromise Theory:
Based on my analysis, I believe the government faked the plane crash and demolished the WTC North Tower with explosives.
The South Tower, in a simultaneous but unrelated plot was brought down by actual terrorists.
Is it a deal?
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #14 posted 06/19/12 5:59am

Shanti0608

I can't wait until someone is willing to stand up to the insurance companies, they are just as corrupt as the banks.

That is a big part of the problem. I have worked in the healthcare/medical billing area for years and seeing what these insurance companies charge for medicine and procedures is a HUGE problem.

The dr I was seeing decided to code a visit as a well visit because she could charge the insurance company $300. Turns out the insurance I had at the time did not cover well visits. I went to see her for stomach issues. I ended up paying the dr for the visit and disputing it with the insurance company.

They had to request medical records from drs office with after 6 months they still have not rec'd them.

So I am out the money, the dr got paid, the insurance company got their $600 a month from me and my stomach is worse than ever.

Yes, I would like to see some sort of reform. The drs are learning to work the system to take care of themselves, the insurance companies have been working the system for a long time.

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Reply #15 posted 06/19/12 6:56am

V10LETBLUES

avatar

No one likes to see any system they have figured out and can manipulate and defraud be changed. But no worries, as soon as Obamacare goes in effect, there may be some teething pains, but the same folks making out like bandits now, will figure it out. Greed and corruption is innate to us. It's a natural part of the human condition, we have good and bad in us. We can't change that. We can only mitigate the bad we do.

I think the trick is to do the same as with the flu vaccine. Modify policy each year, ever so slightly based on surveillance-based forecasts about what viruses tactics are most likely to cause illness be used screw people in the coming season.

People are smart, if we work long enough on anything we figure out a way fuck it no matter what safeguards are in place. Complacency is our biggest enemy.

[Edited 6/19/12 7:16am]

innocent
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Reply #16 posted 06/19/12 8:45am

rudedog

avatar

seekingtruth said:

rudedog said:

I love how NONE of this is source (minus the poll at the end, just proves how sucessful Republican's fear and hate rhetoric worked on Americans) and is purely ad-hominem

[Edited 6/18/12 11:55am]

I guess I could have used sources like you do. Any "out there" website you get some oped off of.

HA!! I think it's safe to assume from your statement that you never look at sources, even mine. But why bother right? Right wing unsourced links are WAY more factual than sourced ones.

"The voter is less important than the man who provides money to the candidate," - Former Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens
Rudedog no no no!
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Reply #17 posted 06/19/12 8:51am

rudedog

avatar

seekingtruth said:

This article was a bit misplaced in my opinion, but the points are still legitimate. Although I did know that a large percentage of Doctors are planning an exit from the industry once Obamacare hits, I was unfamiliar with some of the other points.

Wait wait wait, you talked to TWO doctors and from that you say "large percentage of Doctors are planning an exit from the industry once Obamacare hits". HA! I know ppl are full of shit when they start their argument with the straw man.... 'i know' and provide no evidence other than they knowing a couple of ppl that they've talked to. Oh yeah...that's factual. lol

"The voter is less important than the man who provides money to the candidate," - Former Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens
Rudedog no no no!
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Reply #18 posted 06/19/12 8:54am

rudedog

avatar

seekingtruth said:

rudedog said:

I love how NONE of this is source (minus the poll at the end, just proves how sucessful Republican's fear and hate rhetoric worked on Americans) and is purely ad-hominem

[Edited 6/18/12 11:55am]

And btw.....

The Kaiser Foundation was one source. By using the links in the post, you can access the actual report.....

10 points and you have one source, congradulations! clapping THe funny this is that that one source doesn't support very much as Obamacare hasnt' been fully implemented.

"The voter is less important than the man who provides money to the candidate," - Former Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens
Rudedog no no no!
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Reply #19 posted 06/19/12 10:39am

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

rudedog said:

seekingtruth said:

And btw.....

The Kaiser Foundation was one source. By using the links in the post, you can access the actual report.....

10 points and you have one source, congradulations! clapping THe funny this is that that one source doesn't support very much as Obamacare hasnt' been fully implemented.

again with this nacy pelosi-esk idea that we can not know what is in it until we pass it... we cannot be critical of it until it is in full effect? even when obama himself admitted lowing cost was a lie as he said we always knew it would raise the costs!

when the idea of death panels was mentioned what's her name was attacked! yet it is in the law! onaba himself said that 'we' should be able to decide based on cost if a person is valuable enough to provide option A or B. Now did I paraphrase? hell yeah! but that was his message. (and he also said obama care was not good enough for himself or his family! just for you and yours)

FYI: there are some Orgers I ignore. So when I do not reply to them... that is why.
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Reply #20 posted 06/19/12 11:12am

rudedog

avatar

OnlyNDaUsa said

again with this nacy pelosi-esk idea that we can not know what is in it until we pass it... we cannot be critical of it until it is in full effect?

Horrible comparison lol You can't criticize it for being UNeffective if it even hasn't been implemented. That's like critizing how crappy a car rides without even driving it. 'I heard' it drives badly just doesn't cut it.

when the idea of death panels was mentioned what's her name was attacked! yet it is in the law! onaba himself said that 'we' should be able to decide based on cost if a person is valuable enough to provide option A or B. Now did I paraphrase? hell yeah! but that was his message. (and he also said obama care was not good enough for himself or his family! just for you and yours)

And again, another baseless attack with no evidence, or sources. She was also attacked because her and her family ran off to Canada for healthcare when she was young...SOCIALIZED MEDICINE!! She apparently thought socialized heathcare was fine when it worked for her.

Palin's claim was presented as false and criticized by mainstream news media, fact-checkers, academics, physicians, Democrats, and some Republicans. Other prominent Republicans and conservative talk radio hosts backed Palin's statement.

Due to public concern, the provision was removed from the Senate bill and was not included in the law that was enacted, the 2010 Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. In a 2011 statement, the American Society of Clinical Oncology bemoaned the politicization of the issue and said that the proposal should be revisited.

For 2009, "death panel" was named as PolitiFact's "Lie of the Year", one of FactCheck's "whoppers", and the most outrageous term by the American Dialect Society.

Economists, professors, Bioethicists, Medical Directors, The Economist, NY Times, and more have all called BULLSHIT on Death Panels. So....you want me to believe YOU over these credible sources? falloff


"The voter is less important than the man who provides money to the candidate," - Former Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens
Rudedog no no no!
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Reply #21 posted 06/19/12 11:16am

OnlyNDaUsa

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it is used in every heath care plan... every single one. if you are too old or too sick you WILL get denied.

FYI: there are some Orgers I ignore. So when I do not reply to them... that is why.
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Reply #22 posted 06/19/12 11:23am

rudedog

avatar

OnlyNDaUsa said:

it is used in every heath care plan... every single one. if you are too old or too sick you WILL get denied.

Okay, so there must be no old ppl in Canada, Germany, Japan, Netherlands, Honk Kong.....COOL!!!! Is this something 'you heard'?

"The voter is less important than the man who provides money to the candidate," - Former Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens
Rudedog no no no!
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Reply #23 posted 06/20/12 6:29am

seekingtruth

RodeoSchro said:

seekingtruth said:

You don't understand the profession.

I have had conversations with 2 different doctors who are in that 46%. There are other areas they can work where they don't have to deal with all the headaches that are going to comprise their profession.

You don't understand the issue. It's not the lack of money. Doctors can recoup that income in other ways. It's about the headaches and hurdles that come with endless regulation.

You said they were going to "exit the industry". If they leave medicine altogether, what industry is next for them? Plumbing?

You either misspoke, or exaggerated your claim.

I am 100% confident that there will not be a mass exodus of doctors leaving the only industry for which they are trained. Will some retire? Sure. But quit?

Nope.

We'll just have to see then. I'll gladly concede if I am wrong.

i am going on multiple conversations with multiple medical providers; my personal doctor included.

There are areas they can provide medical care, privately, without having to do so in the general, medical market.

True genius is knowing how little
you really know.
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Reply #24 posted 06/20/12 6:35am

seekingtruth

Shanti0608 said:

So what is the solution to many Americans not being able to afford healthcare and going into debt over it?

I would like a viable solution if you are going to shoot down what the current president has to offer.

[Edited 6/19/12 5:45am]

There absolutely needs to be changes to how healthcare is deployed in this country. I agree with that.

What do you guys say about the fact that the Healthcare Bill's false premise of debt reduction has already been realized under the governments own budgetary rules? What was sold to the American public as a viable option was bogus.

There were a total of 13 other bills offered up during the healthcare debate with alternative measures.......the democratic house and senate would not allow debate on 1 of them other than Obamacare....so much for transparency.

Obamacare is a Health INSURANCE bill, not a healthcare bill. It's like putting a new battery in a car that is out of gas, and expecting it to run; it doesn't address the problem.

The problem with our healthcare system is cost of care. If you only deal with how individuals are insured without addressing more poignantly the cost of the care, than you are going to run into a bankrupt government.

All insurance is is liability coverage. If that liability (cost of care) increases, than the cost of insurance increases. The cost of insurance cannot keep up with the cost of care, so there will ALWAYS be a gap in our current system. The more the government tries to cover, the more they are going to have to tax us.....

True genius is knowing how little
you really know.
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Reply #25 posted 06/20/12 6:43am

seekingtruth

rudedog said:

seekingtruth said:

And btw.....

The Kaiser Foundation was one source. By using the links in the post, you can access the actual report.....

10 points and you have one source, congradulations! clapping THe funny this is that that one source doesn't support very much as Obamacare hasnt' been fully implemented.

I listed 1 for you. That's not all there were.....

True genius is knowing how little
you really know.
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Reply #26 posted 06/20/12 7:26am

13cjk13

avatar

seekingtruth said:

Shanti0608 said:

So what is the solution to many Americans not being able to afford healthcare and going into debt over it?

I would like a viable solution if you are going to shoot down what the current president has to offer.

[Edited 6/19/12 5:45am]

There absolutely needs to be changes to how healthcare is deployed in this country. I agree with that.

What do you guys say about the fact that the Healthcare Bill's false premise of debt reduction has already been realized under the governments own budgetary rules? What was sold to the American public as a viable option was bogus.

There were a total of 13 other bills offered up during the healthcare debate with alternative measures.......the democratic house and senate would not allow debate on 1 of them other than Obamacare....so much for transparency.

Obamacare is a Health INSURANCE bill, not a healthcare bill. It's like putting a new battery in a car that is out of gas, and expecting it to run; it doesn't address the problem.

The problem with our healthcare system is cost of care. If you only deal with how individuals are insured without addressing more poignantly the cost of the care, than you are going to run into a bankrupt government.

All insurance is is liability coverage. If that liability (cost of care) increases, than the cost of insurance increases. The cost of insurance cannot keep up with the cost of care, so there will ALWAYS be a gap in our current system. The more the government tries to cover, the more they are going to have to tax us.....

There will ALWAYS be a gap as long as insurance companies are reaping huge profits.

"I do not provide links because I do not get my information in that manner."
I have not said all of them never are.
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Reply #27 posted 06/20/12 7:38am

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

13cjk13 said:

.

There will ALWAYS be a gap as long as insurance companies are reaping huge profits.

source? last I heard they were pretty thin.

FYI: there are some Orgers I ignore. So when I do not reply to them... that is why.
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Reply #28 posted 06/20/12 8:20am

RodeoSchro

avatar

seekingtruth said:

RodeoSchro said:

You said they were going to "exit the industry". If they leave medicine altogether, what industry is next for them? Plumbing?

You either misspoke, or exaggerated your claim.

I am 100% confident that there will not be a mass exodus of doctors leaving the only industry for which they are trained. Will some retire? Sure. But quit?

Nope.

We'll just have to see then. I'll gladly concede if I am wrong.

i am going on multiple conversations with multiple medical providers; my personal doctor included.

There are areas they can provide medical care, privately, without having to do so in the general, medical market.

Great, but that wouldn't be "exiting the industry", would it? That would just be changing jobs within the same industry (assuming the practice of medicine is the industry).

Second Funkiest White Man in America

Rocket Frog
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Reply #29 posted 06/20/12 8:11pm

jjhunsecker

Shanti0608 said:

So what is the solution to many Americans not being able to afford healthcare and going into debt over it?

I would like a viable solution if you are going to shoot down what the current president has to offer.

[Edited 6/19/12 5:45am]

What those who oppose "Obamacare" want is basically nothing - they simply don't care about anybody else, and if they get sick and die, too fucking bad, they should have earned more money to take care of themselves. "I ain't gonna help some lazy slacking muthafuckas...."

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