...I wonder why?

Honestly. Discuss.

[Edited 6/30/11 17:39pm]

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Envy is poisonus

Apparantly based on what?

Marrk said:

...I wonder why?

Honestly. Discuss.

[Edited 6/30/11 17:39pm]

Well we wage senseless, neverending wars in other countries. We support and give money to autrocratic, corrupt governments, some that actually give money to terrorists who want to slaughter ppl and erraticate America and allies. We fought wars in countries and won, yet we still have military presense there. Our corrupt money market and humongous business and farming structure puts competing countries out of business so they become solely dependent on our exports; when the price of oil goes up, ppl starve. Because we're the last industrialized country to NOT have healthcare, other countries (that do) have to buy insurance so they can even vacation in the U.S. without the worry of paying $10G in medical bills when they go back home.

I have no idea why other countries would hate us, they are just jealous!

[Edited 7/1/11 9:29am]

Cloudbuster said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Envy is poisonus

Honestly, this is it right here.

There are a lot of places I would rather live than the US, my home country of Canada being one of them, but the US is still considered the biggest, richest, most powerful nation in the world. It has more presence globally than any other nation.

This puts a huge bulls eye on its back. America has its fair share of problems, but compared to so many nations, America still remains a beacon of freedom and personal liberty and wealth.

Why does everybody hate McDonald's? Because they are a massive corporation representative of fast food. They aren't necessarily any better or worse than other major chains out there, but their presence makes them a target.

On reflection, nobody seems to hate Coke though, lol.

For all her flaws, and I mean America has flaws like a bitch, she is the most

charitable nation on Earth. Yeah, Americans probably have more money

to give so that they can afford to give, but the point is still notable:

America, more than any other nation on earth, is the biggest donor

to charities.

America's philanthropy is the only reason why God tolerates her, in

my opinion.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-25-charitable_N.htm

http://www.philanthropy.iupui.edu/News/2009/docs/GivingReaches300billion_06102009.pdf

duccichucka said:

For all her flaws, and I mean America has flaws like a bitch, she is the most

charitable nation on Earth.

Meaning government spending or personal spending?

The US government has killed many people all around the world throughout its history, right up to this very hour. It was founded on the murdering of millions of native americans.

America's business is war, pillaging one nation after another for wealth, power, and dominance, while homeland needs go begging:

The Business Of America Is War

"...Washington's wars against Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya and Yemen, as well as numerous proxy ones in Africa, Asia, Central and South America, and at home against Muslims, Latino immigrants, and working households.

"Combined, they represent a shocking contempt for rule of law justice, democratic values and humanity, notions now mere artifacts long ago abandoned to advance America's imperium."

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Slavery is a great evil. It is a blight on our history. But let's ask where di it start? Did the white man go to aferica and capture men and woman to be sold as slaves? Hum no! It was a little different? Oh I know as europe and other nations started to trade with aferica the aferican leaders started to offer men and woman to the merchants. See the men and woman sold into slavery were sold by their own countrymen.

After they were "sold" were they being raped, murdered and destroyed by their "own" countrymen as well?

Graycap23 said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Slavery is a great evil. It is a blight on our history. But let's ask where di it start? Did the white man go to aferica and capture men and woman to be sold as slaves? Hum no! It was a little different? Oh I know as europe and other nations started to trade with aferica the aferican leaders started to offer men and woman to the merchants. See the men and woman sold into slavery were sold by their own countrymen.

After they were "sold" were they being raped, murdered and destroyed by their "own" countrymen as well?

Come now, lets not think about that. Only already justified it for us

Graycap23 said:

13cjk13 said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

13cjk13 said:

Come now, lets not think about that. Only already justified it for us

We should. But if we are going to be hoenst then we can not ignore its true roots. For far too long the myth that the slavers sailed to there and captured the men and woman my the millions them selves. That did not happen.

P.S. How slavery started doesn't matter one iota.

IshmaelB said:

duccichucka said:

For all her flaws, and I mean America has flaws like a bitch, she is the most

charitable nation on Earth.

Meaning government spending or personal spending?

Both.

IshmaelB said:

The US government has killed many people all around the world throughout its history, right up to this very hour. It was founded on the murdering of millions of native americans.

The US has enslaved millions of Africans, raped them, murdered them, and denied them of basic human rights. Even after the Jim Crow laws were abolished the US government was dilberatley harming black americans in other ways, such as selling crack and guns in the black ghettos.

The US government has installed puppet regimes in nations all over the world, stolen nations' resources, dropped atomic bombs on innocent civilians.

In nations where actual democracy has flourished/began to develop, the US government has destroyed it*, whilst turning a blind eye to the lack of democracy and disgusting human rights record in nations whose puppet leaders serve US (corporate) interests abroad.

* The US government has military bases everywhere in the world that basically serve this aim.

Selling crack and guns in the black ghettos?

Even if you believe that they were, isn't it an individual choice to use drugs and/or guns?

And don't give me bullshit about ready access. There's ready access to education too but people make a choice not to use route to improve their lives.

White kids I'm sure have as much acess to alcohol, meth and cocaine among others but are they government victims?

Graycap23 said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Slavery is a great evil. It is a blight on our history. But let's ask where di it start? Did the white man go to aferica and capture men and woman to be sold as slaves? Hum no! It was a little different? Oh I know as europe and other nations started to trade with aferica the aferican leaders started to offer men and woman to the merchants. See the men and woman sold into slavery were sold by their own countrymen.

After they were "sold" were they being raped, murdered and destroyed by their "own" countrymen as well?

If their own countrymen treated them as a commodity, why would others not do the same?

13cjk13 said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

13cjk13 said: We should. But if we are going to be hoenst then we can not ignore its true roots. For far too long the myth that the slavers sailed to there and captured the men and woman my the millions them selves. That did not happen.

P.S. How slavery started doesn't matter one iota.

Sure it does. It certainly precedes settling of the Western Hemisphere in large numbers by Europeans. Throughout recorded history men have enslaved other men.

Even though we choose to believe we live in a more enlightened era, people still sell others into slavey, where others enslave them.

If how slavery started doesn't matter one iota, then where do we start? With the arrival of Africans in large numbers into the Western Hemisphere who showed up as slaves?

IshmaelB said:

duccichucka said:

For all her flaws, and I mean America has flaws like a bitch, she is the most

charitable nation on Earth.

Meaning government spending or personal spending?

Check the links.

IshmaelB said:

The US government has killed many people all around the world throughout its history, right up to this very hour. It was founded on the murdering of millions of native americans.

The US has enslaved millions of Africans, raped them, murdered them, and denied them of basic human rights. Even after the Jim Crow laws were abolished the US government was dilberatley harming black americans in other ways, such as selling crack and guns in the black ghettos.

The US government has installed puppet regimes in nations all over the world, stolen nations' resources, dropped atomic bombs on innocent civilians.

In nations where actual democracy has flourished/began to develop, the US government has destroyed it*, whilst turning a blind eye to the lack of democracy and disgusting human rights record in nations whose puppet leaders serve US (corporate) interests abroad.

* The US government has military bases everywhere in the world that basically serve this aim.

Your point is well taken (some of it lacks perspective) but America's past transgressions are not the reason why the US is thought to be the most hated country in the world.

If the assumption is correct, and I seriously doubt we could ever qualify it, I think the reason for US hate is because of her current global policies. I'm quite sure that the international community doesn't hate America because she mistreates Blacks.

SUPRMAN said:

IshmaelB said:

The US government has killed many people all around the world throughout its history, right up to this very hour. It was founded on the murdering of millions of native americans.

The US has enslaved millions of Africans, raped them, murdered them, and denied them of basic human rights. Even after the Jim Crow laws were abolished the US government was dilberatley harming black americans in other ways, such as selling crack and guns in the black ghettos.

The US government has installed puppet regimes in nations all over the world, stolen nations' resources, dropped atomic bombs on innocent civilians.

In nations where actual democracy has flourished/began to develop, the US government has destroyed it*, whilst turning a blind eye to the lack of democracy and disgusting human rights record in nations whose puppet leaders serve US (corporate) interests abroad.

* The US government has military bases everywhere in the world that basically serve this aim.

Selling crack and guns in the black ghettos?

Even if you believe that they were, isn't it an individual choice to use drugs and/or guns?

And don't give me bullshit about ready access. There's ready access to education too but people make a choice not to use route to improve their lives.

White kids I'm sure have as much acess to alcohol, meth and cocaine among others but are they government victims?

Woah, woah, woah!

Black kids in the ghetto aren't actually afforded the same opportunities that white kids have. And Ishmael makes a great point; there is evidence that clearly shows that the US pushed drugs and guns into black ghettos. Use the wizard of Google and check it out.

Sometimes choice is an option for those who can afford it.

The "evils" of selling drugs; well, I'll just say this: there are somethings in this world that aren't easily distinguised as black or white. There is a lot of gray in this world - ALOT.

duccichucka said:

SUPRMAN said:

Selling crack and guns in the black ghettos?

Even if you believe that they were, isn't it an individual choice to use drugs and/or guns?

And don't give me bullshit about ready access. There's ready access to education too but people make a choice not to use route to improve their lives.

White kids I'm sure have as much acess to alcohol, meth and cocaine among others but are they government victims?

Woah, woah, woah!

Black kids in the ghetto aren't actually afforded the same opportunities that white kids have. And Ishmael makes a great point; there is evidence that clearly shows that the US pushed drugs and guns into black ghettos. Use the wizard of Google and check it out.

Sometimes choice is an option for those who can afford it.

The "evils" of selling drugs; well, I'll just say this: there are somethings in this world that aren't easily distinguised as black or white. There is a lot of gray in this world - ALOT.

Even if that is factual, there is still the element of personal choice.

We agree everyone isn't afforded the same opportunities, but even those with opportunities fall prey to the same temptations that you suggest others have no choice in.

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Envy is poisonus

and there it is! thank you! this post pretty much nails it down.. really... I mean, not in the way you intended it.. but still

your statement accurately exposes the utter arrogance (which is mainly based in ignorance about the world) and the "Hoopla we're the best" attitude that some Americans like you expose, and amongst other reasons already listed above, this attitude has certainly a great deal to do with the "hate". as for my part I personally don't hate'em, I only find people like you extremely funny

boy oh boy, you really know how to post on topic

SUPRMAN said:

IshmaelB said:

The US government has killed many people all around the world throughout its history, right up to this very hour. It was founded on the murdering of millions of native americans.

The US has enslaved millions of Africans, raped them, murdered them, and denied them of basic human rights. Even after the Jim Crow laws were abolished the US government was dilberatley harming black americans in other ways, such as selling crack and guns in the black ghettos.

The US government has installed puppet regimes in nations all over the world, stolen nations' resources, dropped atomic bombs on innocent civilians.

In nations where actual democracy has flourished/began to develop, the US government has destroyed it*, whilst turning a blind eye to the lack of democracy and disgusting human rights record in nations whose puppet leaders serve US (corporate) interests abroad.

* The US government has military bases everywhere in the world that basically serve this aim.

Selling crack and guns in the black ghettos?

Even if you believe that they were, isn't it an individual choice to use drugs and/or guns?

And don't give me bullshit about ready access. There's ready access to education too but people make a choice not to use route to improve their lives.

White kids I'm sure have as much acess to alcohol, meth and cocaine among others but are they government victims?

Do you really think that there's any good opportunities for education or any "ready access" in the ghettos? Honestly? Black people are at a disadvantage, and when there's only one way to live and one way to make money, what are you going to do? Now I completely agree that if the opportunity for education is there then they should seize it. But there's no opportunity. And that's the problem.

"African-American students are less likely than their white counterparts to be taught by teachers who know their subject matter," Haycock said.

"They are less likely to be exposed to a rich and challenging curriculum," she said. "And the schools that educate them typically receive less state and local funding than the ones serving mainly white students."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31911075/ns/us_news-education/t/black-white-student-achievement-gap-persists/

smoothcriminal12 said:

SUPRMAN said:

Selling crack and guns in the black ghettos?

Even if you believe that they were, isn't it an individual choice to use drugs and/or guns?

And don't give me bullshit about ready access. There's ready access to education too but people make a choice not to use route to improve their lives.

White kids I'm sure have as much acess to alcohol, meth and cocaine among others but are they government victims?

Do you really think that there's any good opportunities for education or any "ready access" in the ghettos? Honestly? Black people are at a disadvantage, and when there's only one way to live and one way to make money, what are you going to do? Now I completely agree that if the opportunity for education is there then they should seize it. But there's no opportunity. And that's the problem.

"African-American students are less likely than their white counterparts to be taught by teachers who know their subject matter," Haycock said.

"They are less likely to be exposed to a rich and challenging curriculum," she said. "And the schools that educate them typically receive less state and local funding than the ones serving mainly white students."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31911075/ns/us_news-education/t/black-white-student-achievement-gap-persists/

So Black people collectively are basically crippled because there are no schools, teachers, or teaching.

"Only one way to live and make money." Surely you jest. Watching television should give one more imagination than that.

So Black people should simply raise their children to be drug dealers and wards of the penal system is that it?

There are no other options right?

So what about all the educated Black individuals from disadvantaged backgrounds? What do we call them? Can't call them Black now can we?

SUPRMAN said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

Do you really think that there's any good opportunities for education or any "ready access" in the ghettos? Honestly? Black people are at a disadvantage, and when there's only one way to live and one way to make money, what are you going to do? Now I completely agree that if the opportunity for education is there then they should seize it. But there's no opportunity. And that's the problem.

"African-American students are less likely than their white counterparts to be taught by teachers who know their subject matter," Haycock said.

"They are less likely to be exposed to a rich and challenging curriculum," she said. "And the schools that educate them typically receive less state and local funding than the ones serving mainly white students."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31911075/ns/us_news-education/t/black-white-student-achievement-gap-persists/

So Black people collectively are basically crippled because there are no schools, teachers, or teaching.

I never said that. The disadvantage point did not only refer to schools.

So Black people should simply raise their children to be drug dealers and wards of the penal system is that it?

I never said that either.

There are no other options right?

I don't believe that either.

So what about all the educated Black individuals from disadvantaged backgrounds? What do we call them? Can't call them Black now can we?

Er....of course we can call them black.

smoothcriminal12 said:

SUPRMAN said:

So Black people collectively are basically crippled because there are no schools, teachers, or teaching.

I never said that. The disadvantage point did not only refer to schools.

So Black people should simply raise their children to be drug dealers and wards of the penal system is that it?

I never said that either.

There are no other options right?

I don't believe that either.

So what about all the educated Black individuals from disadvantaged backgrounds? What do we call them? Can't call them Black now can we?

Er....of course we can call them black.

But they are uneducated, drug dealers, so how can they be Black?

Isn't just about every-other thread in P&R a bash against America anyway?

SUPRMAN said:

duccichucka said:

Woah, woah, woah!

Black kids in the ghetto aren't actually afforded the same opportunities that white kids have. And Ishmael makes a great point; there is evidence that clearly shows that the US pushed drugs and guns into black ghettos. Use the wizard of Google and check it out.

Sometimes choice is an option for those who can afford it.

The "evils" of selling drugs; well, I'll just say this: there are somethings in this world that aren't easily distinguised as black or white. There is a lot of gray in this world - ALOT.

Even if that is factual, there is still the element of personal choice.

We agree everyone isn't afforded the same opportunities, but even those with opportunities fall prey to the same temptations that you suggest others have no choice in.

Hmm...

I don't want to over simplify nor generalize my post but bear with me - I do not want to get into a philosophical dialect about free will, determinism and choice. But I'll say this: choice is not as easy as you think it is. It is more involved than selecting B over A. And philosophers for centuries have debated what it is to have a choice. This does not prove my point but shows that obviously there is

no right/wrong/black/white answer to the concept of choice.

If your gubb'ment is shipping drugs and weapons into your neighborhood, it seems to me that a choice is being presented to you. If this is true and someone is creating the environment in the hopes that you do make a decision to ruin your life, I don't think that conception of choice is the same as a suburban kid, in an environment created for her/him to succeed, trying to decide if s/he wants to attend Boston College or Boston University.

I get your point, but I think you are basically over simplifying a sociological phenomenon.

Regardless of our outcome, America sucks!

PurpleJedi said:

Isn't just about every-other thread in P&R a bash against America anyway?

LMAO, and as an American Christian, imagine the grief I get here! <jk>

I don't believe that the USA is the most hated and despised country in the world. If we were, we would have no allies and would be destroyed over a short period of time.

duccichucka said:

SUPRMAN said:

Even if that is factual, there is still the element of personal choice.

We agree everyone isn't afforded the same opportunities, but even those with opportunities fall prey to the same temptations that you suggest others have no choice in.

Hmm...

I don't want to over simplify nor generalize my post but bear with me - I do not want to get into a philosophical dialect about free will, determinism and choice. But I'll say this: choice is not as easy as you think it is. It is more involved than selecting B over A. And philosophers for centuries have debated what it is to have a choice. This does not prove my point but shows that obviously there is

no right/wrong/black/white answer to the concept of choice.

If your gubb'ment is shipping drugs and weapons into your neighborhood, it seems to me that a choice is being presented to you. If this is true and someone is creating the environment in the hopes that you do make a decision to ruin your life, I don't think that conception of choice is the same as a suburban kid, in an environment created for her/him to succeed, trying to decide if s/he wants to attend Boston College or Boston University.

I get your point, but I think you are basically over simplifying a sociological phenomenon.

Regardless of our outcome, America sucks!

Sucks so much people do anything to get here and be here.

People vote with their feet everyday on how much the U.S. of A sucks.

So poor people don't have choice except what the government offers them?

Oh, my bad. Poor people have NO choices.

I agree, it's not easy to say I don't need to smoke crack, I don't need to sell cracks to my neighbors and watch more lives being destroyed. It's not easy to say, I'm not going to kill someone over an item of clothing.

I think we should focus on giving these people the opportunity to make decisions for themselves.

Apparently all that will cost is enough money to lift them out of poverty.

I might as well repeat my question:

"Most hated"

Based on what?

USA can't be the most hated country. What about places like Iraq?

duccichucka said:

I'm quite sure that the international community doesn't hate America because she mistreates Blacks.

They should.

The U.S. prison gulag dwarfs that of every other nation, and its racial composition is irrefutable proof that the American state functions as the principal enforcer of the color bar in U.S. society.

Tremolina said:

I might as well repeat my question:

"Most hated"

Based on what?

You have been in P&R long enough to know that if it is part of a thread title then it has to be true! Come on man!

SUPRMAN said:

duccichucka said:

Hmm...

I don't want to over simplify nor generalize my post but bear with me - I do not want to get into a philosophical dialect about free will, determinism and choice. But I'll say this: choice is not as easy as you think it is. It is more involved than selecting B over A. And philosophers for centuries have debated what it is to have a choice. This does not prove my point but shows that obviously there is

no right/wrong/black/white answer to the concept of choice.

If your gubb'ment is shipping drugs and weapons into your neighborhood, it seems to me that a choice is being presented to you. If this is true and someone is creating the environment in the hopes that you do make a decision to ruin your life, I don't think that conception of choice is the same as a suburban kid, in an environment created for her/him to succeed, trying to decide if s/he wants to attend Boston College or Boston University.

I get your point, but I think you are basically over simplifying a sociological phenomenon.

Regardless of our outcome, America sucks!

Sucks so much people do anything to get here and be here.

People vote with their feet everyday on how much the U.S. of A sucks.

So poor people don't have choice except what the government offers them?

Oh, my bad. Poor people have NO choices.

I agree, it's not easy to say I don't need to smoke crack, I don't need to sell cracks to my neighbors and watch more lives being destroyed. It's not easy to say, I'm not going to kill someone over an item of clothing.

I think we should focus on giving these people the opportunity to make decisions for themselves.

Apparently all that will cost is enough money to lift them out of poverty.

'Sucks', I'm afraid, is relative. I've lived overseas in Europe and Asia and I think that enables me to draw a solid conclusion that America sucks. I can't speak for the cat in Somalia trying to get the fuck out of Dodge City to live in America only to be faced with becoming a janitor or drug dealer. Hell, being locked up in an American jail could be more desirable than living in Moghadishu (hope I spelled that right). Choices.....ain't that a bitch.

The only choice poor people have in this country is how poor do they want to be. I want to know how many people who consider themselves 'upper middle class' or 'rich' were the products of being poor OR the products of being upper middle class or rich. Again, I'm only wondering; I am not a sociologist. On another note: Poor people do have a choice - but the terms of the choice have already been 'chosen' for them!

You are dealing with too many absolutes, in my opinion. What is the context of a drug dealer selling drugs? Not every drug dealer is a gang banging asshole who doesn't care about his community or others and will run up on you in a heart beat. Why do you insist upon placing every aspect of this conversation into an 'either/or' context? I think the hood is an environment where it isn't easy to choose not to sell drugs or gang bang.

America is not interested in giving poor people an opportunity to make decisions for themselves to not be poor anymore. The Constitution, Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights, etc were written by rich white dudes who wanted the country to be that. There is a difference between what ought to be and what is.

The 'what is'?: America's racism is giving way to her classicism which loves to keep the abyss between rich and poor.

This is a nice discussion, by the way. I'm surprised by the cordiality.

IshmaelB said:

duccichucka said:

I'm quite sure that the international community doesn't hate America because she mistreates Blacks.

They should.

The U.S. prison gulag dwarfs that of every other nation, and its racial composition is irrefutable proof that the American state functions as the principal enforcer of the color bar in U.S. society.

Why in the hell do you think the global community (which is a ludicrous concept, imo) would want to stand up to bad, bad, LeeRoy Brown United States?

America dictates what is 'right' and 'wrong' in the world; not the other way around. If America wanted to treat her minorities the way she treats her majority (which will be eradiated in about 20 years), wouldn't the rest of the world, or the major players, follow suit?

SUPRMAN said:

duccichucka said:

Woah, woah, woah!

Black kids in the ghetto aren't actually afforded the same opportunities that white kids have. And Ishmael makes a great point; there is evidence that clearly shows that the US pushed drugs and guns into black ghettos. Use the wizard of Google and check it out.

Sometimes choice is an option for those who can afford it.

The "evils" of selling drugs; well, I'll just say this: there are somethings in this world that aren't easily distinguised as black or white. There is a lot of gray in this world - ALOT.

Even if that is factual, there is still the element of personal choice.

We agree everyone isn't afforded the same opportunities, but even those with opportunities fall prey to the same temptations that you suggest others have no choice in.

You can't make a comparison about the choices made by people living in poverty and those whose basic needs are being met. A poor kid is more likely to choose to participate in illegal activity to have his/her basic needs met (decent shelter, regular meals, a feeling of self worth {which in this world is measured by ones finances}, etc.). A kid who already has these things is more likely to not sell drugs, because the risks will outway the benefits.

What I'm saying is that ones socio-economic status has an influence on the person's personal choice.

[Edited 7/9/11 17:01pm]

tmo1965 said:

SUPRMAN said:

Even if that is factual, there is still the element of personal choice.

We agree everyone isn't afforded the same opportunities, but even those with opportunities fall prey to the same temptations that you suggest others have no choice in.

You can't make a comparison about the choices made by people living in poverty and those whose basic needs are being met. A poor kid is more likely to choose to participate in illegal activity to have his/her basic needs met (decent shelter, regular meals, a feeling of self worth {which in this world is measured by ones finances}, etc.). A kid who already has these things is more likely to not sell drugs, because the risks will outway the benefits.

What I'm saying is that ones socio-economic status has an influence on the person's personal choice.

[Edited 7/9/11 17:01pm]

Somewhat.

But show me the socieconomic line where choices improve along with income.

Your statement says such a point should exist. I just what to know what it is.

Last time I checked rich kids were getting in trouble also. Wealth doesn't keep one from selling drugs.

tmo1965 said:

SUPRMAN said:

Even if that is factual, there is still the element of personal choice.

We agree everyone isn't afforded the same opportunities, but even those with opportunities fall prey to the same temptations that you suggest others have no choice in.

You can't make a comparison about the choices made by people living in poverty and those whose basic needs are being met. A poor kid is more likely to choose to participate in illegal activity to have his/her basic needs met (decent shelter, regular meals, a feeling of self worth {which in this world is measured by ones finances}, etc.). A kid who already has these things is more likely to not sell drugs, because the risks will outway the benefits.

What I'm saying is that ones socio-economic status has an influence on the person's personal choice.

[Edited 7/9/11 17:01pm]

If your statement is taken as truth, then what allowances are we as a society supposed to make to deal with the discrepancy?

Do we hand out money so no one is poor and expect that no one will then sell drugs or participate in illegal activity?

Knowing human nature, how is that possible?

tmo1965 said:

SUPRMAN said:

Even if that is factual, there is still the element of personal choice.

We agree everyone isn't afforded the same opportunities, but even those with opportunities fall prey to the same temptations that you suggest others have no choice in.

You can't make a comparison about the choices made by people living in poverty and those whose basic needs are being met. A poor kid is more likely to choose to participate in illegal activity to have his/her basic needs met (decent shelter, regular meals, a feeling of self worth {which in this world is measured by ones finances}, etc.). A kid who already has these things is more likely to not sell drugs, because the risks will outway the benefits.

What I'm saying is that ones socio-economic status has an influence on the person's personal choice.

[Edited 7/9/11 17:01pm]

I agree.

SUPRMAN said:

tmo1965 said:

You can't make a comparison about the choices made by people living in poverty and those whose basic needs are being met. A poor kid is more likely to choose to participate in illegal activity to have his/her basic needs met (decent shelter, regular meals, a feeling of self worth {which in this world is measured by ones finances}, etc.). A kid who already has these things is more likely to not sell drugs, because the risks will outway the benefits.

What I'm saying is that ones socio-economic status has an influence on the person's personal choice.

[Edited 7/9/11 17:01pm]

If your statement is taken as truth, then what allowances are we as a society supposed to make to deal with the discrepancy?

Do we hand out money so no one is poor and expect that no one will then sell drugs or participate in illegal activity?

Knowing human nature, how is that possible?

Hmm, well then that depends upon what type of society this problem exists.

And I am betting that the society that we are talking about simply does not

care about the discrepancy because it does not affect them financially, personally

or 'neighborhoodily'. Those in power (cough, whites, cough) got the fuck out of

the inner city and moved out to the 'burbs.

This society is not predicated on handing out money to the poor en masse.

And too many corporations make money off of poor people otherwise, the richest

nation in the world that is always hollering about liberty, democracy, peace, fraternity,

freedom would handle business for its own.

I believe that human nature (whatever that is) is a paradox: we so want to be

equitable, but we are horders and look out for our own first. We desire peace

but love to give into bloodlust, etc...

To bring another element into this conversation, I believe that there is one certain

type of governance that has a better chance at solving societal ills and other

discrepancies: some type of republic socialism free of capitalism sprung from communi-

tarianism.

Basically:

people run the government, not the government running the people; there are no for

profit organizations (hospitals, schools, defense contractors, etc); equal opportunity for jobs; the community is the microcosm of the republic; all are medically insured...

Its hoity-toity and naive and impractical and idealistic but it would work!

duccichucka said:

SUPRMAN said:

If your statement is taken as truth, then what allowances are we as a society supposed to make to deal with the discrepancy?

Do we hand out money so no one is poor and expect that no one will then sell drugs or participate in illegal activity?

Knowing human nature, how is that possible?

Hmm, well then that depends upon what type of society this problem exists.

And I am betting that the society that we are talking about simply does not

care about the discrepancy because it does not affect them financially, personally

or 'neighborhoodily'. Those in power (cough, whites, cough) got the fuck out of

the inner city and moved out to the 'burbs.

This society is not predicated on handing out money to the poor en masse.

And too many corporations make money off of poor people otherwise, the richest

nation in the world that is always hollering about liberty, democracy, peace, fraternity,

freedom would handle business for its own.

I believe that human nature (whatever that is) is a paradox: we so want to be

equitable, but we are horders and look out for our own first. We desire peace

but love to give into bloodlust, etc...

To bring another element into this conversation, I believe that there is one certain

type of governance that has a better chance at solving societal ills and other

discrepancies: some type of republic socialism free of capitalism sprung from communi-

tarianism.

Basically:

people run the government, not the government running the people; there are no for

profit organizations (hospitals, schools, defense contractors, etc); equal opportunity for jobs; the community is the microcosm of the republic; all are medically insured...

Its hoity-toity and naive and impractical and idealistic but it would work!

And how would this all be paid for?

Who are people working for, if there are no for profit entities?

How would businesses grow and employ more or a growing population without profit?

People run the government now, what would be different?

I live in America and I hate it.

aardvark15 said:

I live in America and I hate it.

Work to make it a place you don't hate.

SUPRMAN said:

duccichucka said:

Hmm, well then that depends upon what type of society this problem exists.

And I am betting that the society that we are talking about simply does not

care about the discrepancy because it does not affect them financially, personally

or 'neighborhoodily'. Those in power (cough, whites, cough) got the fuck out of

the inner city and moved out to the 'burbs.

This society is not predicated on handing out money to the poor en masse.

And too many corporations make money off of poor people otherwise, the richest

nation in the world that is always hollering about liberty, democracy, peace, fraternity,

freedom would handle business for its own.

I believe that human nature (whatever that is) is a paradox: we so want to be

equitable, but we are horders and look out for our own first. We desire peace

but love to give into bloodlust, etc...

To bring another element into this conversation, I believe that there is one certain

type of governance that has a better chance at solving societal ills and other

discrepancies: some type of republic socialism free of capitalism sprung from communi-

tarianism.

Basically:

people run the government, not the government running the people; there are no for

profit organizations (hospitals, schools, defense contractors, etc); equal opportunity for jobs; the community is the microcosm of the republic; all are medically insured...

Its hoity-toity and naive and impractical and idealistic but it would work!

And how would this all be paid for?

Who are people working for, if there are no for profit entities?

How would businesses grow and employ more or a growing population without profit?

People run the government now, what would be different?

People do not run the government. Special interest groups, the military industrial complex (don't get me started on MIC) and large corporations do. Your state senator/representative is reallly powerless.

Taxes would pay for 'all of this' which I mentioned and admitted is really an ideal. I don't mind paying high taxes if I can get medical insurance, free upper education and access to opportunity a la Rawls. I read an article once (articles are hardly definitive but dig it) where it said high taxed countries have individuals better off than low taxed countries. Countries like Sweden where the

state tax is super high but people live better than we do.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2006/12/06/tax-policyalternatives.html

There are all kinds of articles on the net about countries with high taxes having successful societies. Add on top of that all that I said above - I'm down with it. Tax me but make sure

if I need to go to the emergency room, I'm not charge a G. Make sure that when I leave college,

I don't owe Sallie "I'ma Gank You" Mae 40Gs.

What do you mean 'who are people working for'? They are working for a living. They are working for businesses, the government...Read my post dude. I said 'some sort' of socialism. Not a socialism where the state owns everything in sight. Socialism does not necessarily mean China, Cuba, Russia, or some other Eastern European country that screwed it own people.

People hear the word 'socialism' and immediately think that Satan has been conjured up and is now raping babies.

Marx is convincing: Capitalism forces us to work for check to check while never realizing what our full potential could be; it forces us to work for 'the man' but we do not control what the work is; capitalism has brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers all competing against each other for bread - pure 100% Marxism at its finest.

Profit, profit, profit....all we hear about is profit. We'll do anything for a profit but we won't do anything for the bum on the street; doing so won't help us get a profit. We won't do anything for our neighbor either. In fact, we'll be losing profit by giving some profit to the bum and God forbid I lose some of my profit in order to buy all of my (a fat-ass-obese-consumerist-who is in last place-for-education-quality-in-studies-done-on-superpower-countries) material goods made in China and Guatemala.

You don't need to have a focus on profit solely in order to have a healthy, peaceful society where everyone is afforded the same opportunity to make a decent living.

This country spends billions of dollars on defense in order to maintain its hegemony while its own people are suffering, starving,...something is wrong with that. Something is wrong with that!

duccichucka said:

SUPRMAN said:

And how would this all be paid for?

Who are people working for, if there are no for profit entities?

How would businesses grow and employ more or a growing population without profit?

People run the government now, what would be different?

People do not run the government. Special interest groups, the military industrial complex (don't get me started on MIC) and large corporations do. Your state senator/representative is reallly powerless.

Taxes would pay for 'all of this' which I mentioned and admitted is really an ideal. I don't mind paying high taxes if I can get medical insurance, free upper education and access to opportunity a la Rawls. I read an article once (articles are hardly definitive but dig it) where it said high taxed countries have individuals better off than low taxed countries. Countries like Sweden where the

state tax is super high but people live better than we do.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2006/12/06/tax-policyalternatives.html

There are all kinds of articles on the net about countries with high taxes having successful societies. Add on top of that all that I said above - I'm down with it. Tax me but make sure

if I need to go to the emergency room, I'm not charge a G. Make sure that when I leave college,

I don't owe Sallie "I'ma Gank You" Mae 40Gs.

What do you mean 'who are people working for'? They are working for a living. They are working for businesses, the government...Read my post dude. I said 'some sort' of socialism. Not a socialism where the state owns everything in sight. Socialism does not necessarily mean China, Cuba, Russia, or some other Eastern European country that screwed it own people.

People hear the word 'socialism' and immediately think that Satan has been conjured up and is now raping babies.

Marx is convincing: Capitalism forces us to work for check to check while never realizing what our full potential could be; it forces us to work for 'the man' but we do not control what the work is; capitalism has brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers all competing against each other for bread - pure 100% Marxism at its finest.

Profit, profit, profit....all we hear about is profit. We'll do anything for a profit but we won't do anything for the bum on the street; doing so won't help us get a profit. We won't do anything for our neighbor either. In fact, we'll be losing profit by giving some profit to the bum and God forbid I lose some of my profit in order to buy all of my (a fat-ass-obese-consumerist-who is in last place-for-education-quality-in-studies-done-on-superpower-countries) material goods made in China and Guatemala.

You don't need to have a focus on profit solely in order to have a healthy, peaceful society where everyone is afforded the same opportunity to make a decent living.

This country spends billions of dollars on defense in order to maintain its hegemony while its own people are suffering, starving,...something is wrong with that. Something is wrong with that!

C'mon. Government, corporations, special interest lobbies, the military/industrial complex are all composed of people. They would not exist without the people who show up to work there everyday.

These same people are your family, friends, neighbors, associates, co-workers in some cases.

Government is not faceless. Everyone in government and acting on the government's behalf, goes home after work or somewhere and leads their life.

Billions on defense is because no one gets elected by saying we should cut defense spending.

If people wanted defense spending cut to balance the budget, we could. But suggest it and you are painted a druggy peacenik refugee from a pacifist liberal college disconnected from the real world.

We have to defend ourselves against China right?

I will offer my two cents and the Kiwi point of view. Since 1984 we have not been friends with the USA because of its pro nuclear stance, NZ is proudly and strongly nuclear free. Other reasons the Yanks snub us.

Don't take offense at this, we are more neutral/friendly towards USA rather than hostile, its just we are no their bitch like the UK and our neighbour Australia is. Also relations have warmed lately due to our respect of Barack Obama and the right wing pro US government in power.

Reasons Americans may not like us

1. Nuclear Free

2. History of left wing anti war governments

3. Lack of full participation in American fought wars (Garbage as there are Kiwi troops in Afghanistan and Iraq and they were in the Vietnam conflict)

4. Lack of cultural similarity such as the way we spell words, like of sports like rugby and cricket, and the fact we barely play or understand basketball or baseball (We call it softball and its only minorly popular).

5. We are a tiny country that can offer no possible gain to the USA except as a possible colony

6. We call them Americans, I though America stretched from Alaska to Chile, it should be USA or US

7. Lack of cultural affinity with US people and their obsession with Black, Hispanic and Germanic white culture (Why is every white guy got a name like Chester Krause or Billy Bob Hauser). In New Zealand most of us have an Anglo Saxon or Celtic culture and a strong Polynesian Element, Anglo Saxon Americans are virtually limited to the poor south and the Polynesian element is virtually absent except in Hawaii.

Reasons we may not like Americans

1. We don't like their use and praise for Nuclear Power

2. We don't like their gunboat diplomacy in the middle east

3. A lot of US popular culture we find morally repugnant,crass and materialistic ie the sexy bimbo ho culture, spoilt starlets like Kardashians Hilton etc, Hip hop culture and its destructive effects on at risk ethnic groups here.

4. The way the Americans think they run the world and that any war America fights must be good and the world should jump in line and follow

5. Lo brow culture, American programming is much less sophisticated and relies on shock value, slapstick satire and gross commercialisation for example, the American Version of Antiques roadshow, shows more collectables than true antiques and a treasure chest runs a cross the screen when they announce the value. British humour is more sophisticated than that and we appreciate the dignity and hi brow culture of Britain and Europe.

6. Socially irresponsible behaviour like extreme sex, obesity, crime, antisocial behaviour

7. Hypocrisy, the home of lunatic right wing Christian churches (Christian Taleban)

8. The fact most of them are ignorant about New Zealanders and their country, most do not know of it or confuse it with/ or as Australia or parts of Europe.

9. The fact we have been snubbed because of our pacifist non nuclear socialistic mentality.

10. The fact we can not watch a lot of Youtube videos as American copyrights marginalise us for not being American

BUT - Reasons we love America now too (Lest this be a doom fest)

1. Some American popular culture we truly love, programmes, books, singers like Prince for instance

2. The fact that Americans at least try to do right (We actually can see the danger of militant Islam too)

3. The Christian morals some Americans purpot to have

4. Some of the moderation movements over toleration are American (For instance most ethnic minorities and Gays have a debt of gratitude to the American pioneers that encourage the spread of tolerant ideas around the world)

5. The Democratic principles of the American ideal

6. America's doctorine of self empowerment and the lack of a true class system, under American Capitalism everyone could be rich if the wanted.

7. American food, come on, its a guilty pleasure, Coca Cola, Burgers, Fries, Chips, Corn Dogs, Chili dogs, Donuts, Cornflakes - all great American inventions

8. The Internet (Invented by Americans)

9. The Free Press (Freedom of the Press originated with the US Constitution)

10. Human Rights and the UN (Based in America)

11. Barack Obama, America's best leader in over a century, espouses everything about the liberal American ideal

Reasons we may not like Americans

1. We don't like their use and praise for Nuclear Power

2. We don't like their gunboat diplomacy in the middle east

3. A lot of US popular culture we find morally repugnant,crass and materialistic ie the sexy bimbo ho culture, spoilt starlets like Kardashians Hilton etc, Hip hop culture and its destructive effects on at risk ethnic groups here.

4. The way the Americans think they run the world and that any war America fights must be good and the world should jump in line and follow

5. Lo brow culture, American programming is much less sophisticated and relies on shock value, slapstick satire and gross commercialisation for example, the American Version of Antiques roadshow, shows more collectables than true antiques and a treasure chest runs a cross the screen when they announce the value. British humour is more sophisticated than that and we appreciate the dignity and hi brow culture of Britain and Europe.

6. Socially irresponsible behaviour like extreme sex, obesity, crime, antisocial behaviour

7. Hypocrisy, the home of lunatic right wing Christian churches (Christian Taleban)

8. The fact most of them are ignorant about New Zealanders and their country, most do not know of it or confuse it with/ or as Australia or parts of Europe.

9. The fact we have been snubbed because of our pacifist non nuclear socialistic mentality.

Exactly why I hate America. The main reason is social stereotypes but those are good too

1. In America if a man wears a turbin they're automatically a terrorist.

2. If a man is gay he automatically is a pedophile.

3. If your black your a dangerous criminal.
4. If your not a Christian tons of people either try to convert you or talk about you going to hell behind your back.

5. Many people who represent our country (not counting President Obama and a few others) are complete morrons who want gays, blacks, and muslims to go to jail yet are so stupid that they believe Casey Athony didn't kill the child!

6. Religion shouldn't have a part in politics it's like there trying to bring back the KKK again.

I sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo want to move to Canada or New Zeland

SUPRMAN said:

duccichucka said:

People do not run the government. Special interest groups,

C'mon. Government, corporations, special interest lobbies, the military/industrial complex are all composed of people. They would not exist without the people who show up to work there everyday.

These same people are your family, friends, neighbors, associates, co-workers in some cases.

Government is not faceless. Everyone in government and acting on the government's behalf, goes home after work or somewhere and leads their life.

Billions on defense is because no one gets elected by saying we should cut defense spending.

If people wanted defense spending cut to balance the budget, we could. But suggest it and you are painted a druggy peacenik refugee from a pacifist liberal college disconnected from the real world.

We have to defend ourselves against China right?

I agree with Sup here, but special interest groups can manage to sway public opinion. Money can create a voice than can be heard loudest. But in the end it is all about people. The ability of money and power loudly voicing and promoting an opinion has an Asch effect, like the Chinese proverb "Three men make a tiger".

Like cream brings the best to the top, special interest groups know that money can vacuum dirt and anything to the very top. The Tea Party is a good example of this.

[Edited 7/10/11 19:07pm]

SUPRMAN said:

duccichucka said:

People do not run the government. Special interest groups, the military industrial complex (don't get me started on MIC) and large corporations do. Your state senator/representative is reallly powerless.

Taxes would pay for 'all of this' which I mentioned and admitted is really an ideal. I don't mind paying high taxes if I can get medical insurance, free upper education and access to opportunity a la Rawls. I read an article once (articles are hardly definitive but dig it) where it said high taxed countries have individuals better off than low taxed countries. Countries like Sweden where the

state tax is super high but people live better than we do.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2006/12/06/tax-policyalternatives.html

There are all kinds of articles on the net about countries with high taxes having successful societies. Add on top of that all that I said above - I'm down with it. Tax me but make sure

if I need to go to the emergency room, I'm not charge a G. Make sure that when I leave college,

I don't owe Sallie "I'ma Gank You" Mae 40Gs.

What do you mean 'who are people working for'? They are working for a living. They are working for businesses, the government...Read my post dude. I said 'some sort' of socialism. Not a socialism where the state owns everything in sight. Socialism does not necessarily mean China, Cuba, Russia, or some other Eastern European country that screwed it own people.

People hear the word 'socialism' and immediately think that Satan has been conjured up and is now raping babies.

Marx is convincing: Capitalism forces us to work for check to check while never realizing what our full potential could be; it forces us to work for 'the man' but we do not control what the work is; capitalism has brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers all competing against each other for bread - pure 100% Marxism at its finest.

Profit, profit, profit....all we hear about is profit. We'll do anything for a profit but we won't do anything for the bum on the street; doing so won't help us get a profit. We won't do anything for our neighbor either. In fact, we'll be losing profit by giving some profit to the bum and God forbid I lose some of my profit in order to buy all of my (a fat-ass-obese-consumerist-who is in last place-for-education-quality-in-studies-done-on-superpower-countries) material goods made in China and Guatemala.

You don't need to have a focus on profit solely in order to have a healthy, peaceful society where everyone is afforded the same opportunity to make a decent living.

This country spends billions of dollars on defense in order to maintain its hegemony while its own people are suffering, starving,...something is wrong with that. Something is wrong with that!

C'mon. Government, corporations, special interest lobbies, the military/industrial complex are all composed of people. They would not exist without the people who show up to work there everyday.

These same people are your family, friends, neighbors, associates, co-workers in some cases.

Government is not faceless. Everyone in government and acting on the government's behalf, goes home after work or somewhere and leads their life.

Billions on defense is because no one gets elected by saying we should cut defense spending.

If people wanted defense spending cut to balance the budget, we could. But suggest it and you are painted a druggy peacenik refugee from a pacifist liberal college disconnected from the real world.

We have to defend ourselves against China right?

Yes, of course people make up these institutions I'm railing against. And these people are motivated by money, dude. Money. Not stability. Not peace. Not liberty. Not freedom.

Cream.

The Government is indeed faceless. Why aren't there 24hour cameras in White House meetings? Someone is making decisions and we aren't 100% privy to. Do you know all the faces and people who work in the CIA, FBI, NSA? No, you do not. There are integral aspects of US governance that is faceless.

You can't be this naive to think that the good ol' red, white and blue is not concerned with how you live, can you? I believe in cutting the defense budget and I'm not a druggy peacenik refugee from a pacifist liberal arts college disconnected from the world:

1. A druggy peacenik refugee from a pacifist liberal arts college is clearly not disconected from the world, can absolutely have an informed and sound opinion and does not have to be entirely concerned with how they are 'painted'

2. Again, look at what you are saying: you are using the word 'peacenik' pejoratively. Are you kidding me? Peaceniks want peace. What the fuck is going on here? I'm debating a dude who has problems with peace?

3. We absolutely do NOT have to defend ourselves against China. Throw down your guns, stop trying to position yourself as a major global superpower and get down to helping out your own citizens in a country where the minority (which is paradoxically the majority) is suffering dude.

I can't believe I'm having this conversation. You would rather have spend billions of dollars on arms to defend our country against China than to spend billions of dollars so that our quality of life is better? The only reason why China would be our enemy is if both countries are jostling for world dominion. America needs world dominion to pay for her materialism. Jeezus,does anybody around here read? Marx is not Satan. Gramsci is not Satan. Something stinks and it's American materialism being fed by capitalism under the guise of providing the world (Afghanistan, Iraq, Kuwait) freedom. America wants a pipeline for oil in Afghanistan and we are going to get it, god dammit.

I'm bowing out of this debate.

It's bread and circus all over again, man; fucken bread and circus.

duccichucka said:

SUPRMAN said:

C'mon. Government, corporations, special interest lobbies, the military/industrial complex are all composed of people. They would not exist without the people who show up to work there everyday.

These same people are your family, friends, neighbors, associates, co-workers in some cases.

Government is not faceless. Everyone in government and acting on the government's behalf, goes home after work or somewhere and leads their life.

Billions on defense is because no one gets elected by saying we should cut defense spending.

If people wanted defense spending cut to balance the budget, we could. But suggest it and you are painted a druggy peacenik refugee from a pacifist liberal college disconnected from the real world.

We have to defend ourselves against China right?

Yes, of course people make up these institutions I'm railing against. And these people are motivated by money, dude. Money. Not stability. Not peace. Not liberty. Not freedom.

Cream.

The Government is indeed faceless. Why aren't there 24hour cameras in White House meetings? Someone is making decisions and we aren't 100% privy to. Do you know all the faces and people who work in the CIA, FBI, NSA? No, you do not. There are integral aspects of US governance that is faceless.

You can't be this naive to think that the good ol' red, white and blue is not concerned with how you live, can you? I believe in cutting the defense budget and I'm not a druggy peacenik refugee from a pacifist liberal arts college disconnected from the world:

1. A druggy peacenik refugee from a pacifist liberal arts college is clearly not disconected from the world, can absolutely have an informed and sound opinion and does not have to be entirely concerned with how they are 'painted'

2. Again, look at what you are saying: you are using the word 'peacenik' pejoratively. Are you kidding me? Peaceniks want peace. What the fuck is going on here? I'm debating a dude who has problems with peace?

3. We absolutely do NOT have to defend ourselves against China. Throw down your guns, stop trying to position yourself as a major global superpower and get down to helping out your own citizens in a country where the minority (which is paradoxically the majority) is suffering dude.

I can't believe I'm having this conversation. You would rather have spend billions of dollars on arms to defend our country against China than to spend billions of dollars so that our quality of life is better? The only reason why China would be our enemy is if both countries are jostling for world dominion. America needs world dominion to pay for her materialism. Jeezus,does anybody around here read? Marx is not Satan. Gramsci is not Satan. Something stinks and it's American materialism being fed by capitalism under the guise of providing the world (Afghanistan, Iraq, Kuwait) freedom. America wants a pipeline for oil in Afghanistan and we are going to get it, god dammit.

I'm bowing out of this debate.

It's bread and circus all over again, man; fucken bread and circus.

You are just ranting while tilting at windmills.

Yes, someone is making decisions that we aren't privy to. More than 6 billion people make decision everyday that you aren't privy to. Some of them affect you and some do not. How would you process information daily from all sources in government?

You are not debating someone who has an issue with peace. Just pointing out that attempting to cut the defense budget makes you suspect as an enemy of the state. You aren't going to get elected promising to cut defense.

No, we do not have to defend ourselves against China. But China will be used a bogeyman to keep spending on defense.

There is no oil in Afghanistan and we do not need a pipeline there. China would like one through Afghanistan though.

13cjk13 said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

13cjk13 said: We should. But if we are going to be hoenst then we can not ignore its true roots. For far too long the myth that the slavers sailed to there and captured the men and woman my the millions them selves. That did not happen.

P.S. How slavery started doesn't matter one iota.

Why does it not matter? I think the tribal wars and history are very interesting. It played a major role in the history of Africans and therefore in Europe and America too. Most current wars and genocide going on in Africa stems from tribal wars and tribal disputes.

It shows that inhumane, brutal, exploitive, violent behaviour has occured between tribes in Africa, among traders and tribal chiefs, between slaves and the people who were responsible for their treatment, and the western families/corporation that exploited, violated and humiliated the slaves (of all colors)

Violence isn't restricted to white people treating black people inhumane. Violant exploitation of humans has consisted since humanity and still exists. Cheap labor in Asia is only possible because of inhumane working conditions. Every product that is made in Asia is made through cheap exploitive labor. And yes, they do get paid, however, it really comes very close to slavery in my opinion.

SUPRMAN said:

tmo1965 said:

You can't make a comparison about the choices made by people living in poverty and those whose basic needs are being met. A poor kid is more likely to choose to participate in illegal activity to have his/her basic needs met (decent shelter, regular meals, a feeling of self worth {which in this world is measured by ones finances}, etc.). A kid who already has these things is more likely to not sell drugs, because the risks will outway the benefits.

What I'm saying is that ones socio-economic status has an influence on the person's personal choice.

[Edited 7/9/11 17:01pm]

Somewhat.

But show me the socieconomic line where choices improve along with income.

Your statement says such a point should exist. I just what to know what it is.

Last time I checked rich kids were getting in trouble also. Wealth doesn't keep one from selling drugs.

Good point. I believe one can be ignorant and choose to act in a way you know is harming other people. Selling drugs harms other people. Selling t-shirts made by cheap labor under harmfull conditions harms people. It's not about being poor or rich. It's about making choices that harm yourself or other people. I come from a poor background from mother's side. However, I was taught by my mother about wrong and right, and I have allways agreed with her values and morals. No matter how poor or rich you are, you just know if your are harming others. You can deny it to yourself. However, in the back of your head, you still know.

SUPRMAN said:

duccichucka said:

Yes, of course people make up these institutions I'm railing against. And these people are motivated by money, dude. Money. Not stability. Not peace. Not liberty. Not freedom.

Cream.

The Government is indeed faceless. Why aren't there 24hour cameras in White House meetings? Someone is making decisions and we aren't 100% privy to. Do you know all the faces and people who work in the CIA, FBI, NSA? No, you do not. There are integral aspects of US governance that is faceless.

You can't be this naive to think that the good ol' red, white and blue is not concerned with how you live, can you? I believe in cutting the defense budget and I'm not a druggy peacenik refugee from a pacifist liberal arts college disconnected from the world:

1. A druggy peacenik refugee from a pacifist liberal arts college is clearly not disconected from the world, can absolutely have an informed and sound opinion and does not have to be entirely concerned with how they are 'painted'

2. Again, look at what you are saying: you are using the word 'peacenik' pejoratively. Are you kidding me? Peaceniks want peace. What the fuck is going on here? I'm debating a dude who has problems with peace?

3. We absolutely do NOT have to defend ourselves against China. Throw down your guns, stop trying to position yourself as a major global superpower and get down to helping out your own citizens in a country where the minority (which is paradoxically the majority) is suffering dude.

I can't believe I'm having this conversation. You would rather have spend billions of dollars on arms to defend our country against China than to spend billions of dollars so that our quality of life is better? The only reason why China would be our enemy is if both countries are jostling for world dominion. America needs world dominion to pay for her materialism. Jeezus,does anybody around here read? Marx is not Satan. Gramsci is not Satan. Something stinks and it's American materialism being fed by capitalism under the guise of providing the world (Afghanistan, Iraq, Kuwait) freedom. America wants a pipeline for oil in Afghanistan and we are going to get it, god dammit.

I'm bowing out of this debate.

It's bread and circus all over again, man; fucken bread and circus.

You are just ranting while tilting at windmills.

Yes, someone is making decisions that we aren't privy to. More than 6 billion people make decision everyday that you aren't privy to. Some of them affect you and some do not. How would you process information daily from all sources in government?

You are not debating someone who has an issue with peace. Just pointing out that attempting to cut the defense budget makes you suspect as an enemy of the state. You aren't going to get elected promising to cut defense.

No, we do not have to defend ourselves against China. But China will be used a bogeyman to keep spending on defense.

There is no oil in Afghanistan and we do not need a pipeline there. China would like one through Afghanistan though.

Dude, first of all, stop acting like a punk bitch - cut the crap and the veiled insults. They are not subtle enough to be considered veiled on my part. If you interested in proving your points by making fallacious arguments via personal attacks, be my guest. The fact that you are acting like a bitch doesn't mean that your argument isn't sound: pay me the same respect.

Attn: Obama just told us that he will increase defense spending which he thinks will stable the economy...cough...cough...an extended war.

If asking for cuts in defense spending, which I've seen figures between 600billion to 980billion dollars so that we can use those funds to stop two senseless wars and making deals with private defense contractors so that we can use that money to get more people health care, access to a proper education, and better civil service, then yes, label me as a suspicious enemy of the state.

I take that as a compliment.

The point of my 'rant' is not to sway people to vote for me if I am trying to get elected (which again, shows that your morals are misplaced. That implication you make that asking for peace will not get you elected to a political office shows that instead of presenting your platform based upon morals and principles believed, one shoud betray those principles for the sake of gaining the political office), the point is to get the point across.

In your earlier post, you suggested that we have to defend our interests against China. Now you are saying that we don't have to defend ourselves against China (my original claim). Now you claim that China will be used as the boogie man to scare Americans into the thought that we must spend more money on defense when America's consternation of Chinese dominion is unwarranted if America stops its dogged attempt to be the dominion. In order to do that, you have to spend money, apparently billions of dollars. The school I did an after school program got shut down because its students were failing state tests (Mass.) Are you kidding me?! That's ridiculous.

Now Obama just mentioned that among other things, we have to deal with getting the NFL labor dispute solved: BREAD & CIRCUS. Who gives a fuck about football when crunching numbers to boost employment so that people can spend money to buy shit they don't need so that the Waltons can sit in their compounds counting money with little golden giraffes because they were

able to get their products made cheaply in China, where their Chinese factory workers live in squalor. Capitalism - you make money to buy shit so the company can make money to make more shit for you to buy; while all of this is happening, who are you?

There's no oil in Afghanistan? A simple google endeavor will clearly show you are not informed as you think you are:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/oil-field-discovered-in-afghanistan-2053829.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan_Oil_Pipeline

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2010/08/20108159431776396.html

http://www.thedebate.org/thedebate/afghanistan.asp

http://original.antiwar.com/bock/2009/03/23/afghanistan-all-about-oil/

Whether or not you agree or disagree that America doesn't need Afghanistan to provide her with oil, you cannot deny that Afghanistan has oil! Coincidence? No - Bush, who had obvious ties to the oil industry, knew what he was doing. Any superpower in this world who subsists on gas and natural gas wants to get her hands in Afghanistan in any way possible.

The rich are opining about being taxed higher than the poor. The poor and seniors are

crying that they are not helped enough. Republicans and Democrats (a two party political

system does not work. Ask George Washington).) are arguing over a budget. I have an idea:

make us all equal. Do it. Somehow.

I love it when orgers really try to understand eachother and consider eachothers' opinions in stead of venting their own without seriously considering where the other person is coming from.

Let's not start a war on the org, stay polite and respectfull to eachother. Usually that style of communicating leads to more positive and openminded discussions. So we can learn from eachother in stead of dissing eachother.

Obama just said that he's trying to put money into

people's pockets so that they can spend it.

LOALOALAOAOALLALAOALALAOAOLALALALLA!

HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHEHEHEHEHEHEH!

Only in America does her government, political and economical

system want you to make money so that you can spend it.

Spend, spend, spend and spend even more so that they 2%

who own the country can make more money off of the 98% who don't -

and then have the balls to tell you that that's her plan!

Your worth as an American is subsisted on how much money

you can make in order to spend it.

Fabulous. We wouldn't have to worry (the Dems) about tapping

into Social Security if we stopped spending so much on defense!

dJJ said:

I love it when orgers really try to understand eachother and consider eachothers' opinions in stead of venting their own without seriously considering where the other person is coming from.

Let's not start a war on the org, stay polite and respectfull to eachother. Usually that style of communicating leads to more positive and openminded discussions. So we can learn from eachother in stead of dissing eachother.

Yes, but come to the discussion with information and not simply an opinion. Opinions are

just like armpits: everyone has two and they both stink.

Proof of assertion notwithstanding, this argument has quickly become ad nauseum. I will not

budge unless presented facts (I have presented a few in order to strengthen my argument - which, if I remember, is what is needed in a debate/discussion); but until then, I believe that Superman is woefully uninformed. I believe that America's interests are unwarranted while Suprman believes that the course America has taken and its pace in doing so, is warranted. When facts are provided to buttress this opinion, I'll give way for budging.

America is just like any other nation on earth - where her flaws are overt, her good qualities are just as well. As I've stated earlier in this thread, America can't be all that bad: she donates more money to charity than any other nation on Earth. But all I'm saying is that America's flaws are stupidly self-imposed and unnecessary given its current political and economical system.

duccichucka said:

Why in the hell do you think the global community (which is a ludicrous concept, imo) would want to stand up to bad, bad, LeeRoy Brown United States?

The U.S. government has stated that the goal of its foreign policy has been to 'insure democracy,' it's a 'humanitarian mission,' etc.

America dictates what is 'right' and 'wrong' in the world; not the other way around.

And the U.S. represents around 5% of the earth's human population...

duccichucka said:

America is just like any other nation on earth - where her flaws are overt, her good qualities are just as well.

The U.S. is a culture and government of occupation. It's been so since its inception. And today its the world's imperialist boss.

America can't be all that bad: she donates more money to charity than any other nation on Earth.

I'd like to see you back that up. What charities? Who's giving: tax payers or private donors?

duccichucka said:

SUPRMAN said:

You are just ranting while tilting at windmills.

Yes, someone is making decisions that we aren't privy to. More than 6 billion people make decision everyday that you aren't privy to. Some of them affect you and some do not. How would you process information daily from all sources in government?

You are not debating someone who has an issue with peace. Just pointing out that attempting to cut the defense budget makes you suspect as an enemy of the state. You aren't going to get elected promising to cut defense.

No, we do not have to defend ourselves against China. But China will be used a bogeyman to keep spending on defense.

There is no oil in Afghanistan and we do not need a pipeline there. China would like one through Afghanistan though.

Dude, first of all, stop acting like a punk bitch - cut the crap and the veiled insults. They are not subtle enough to be considered veiled on my part. If you interested in proving your points by making fallacious arguments via personal attacks, be my guest. The fact that you are acting like a bitch doesn't mean that your argument isn't sound: pay me the same respect.

Attn: Obama just told us that he will increase defense spending which he thinks will stable the economy...cough...cough...an extended war.

If asking for cuts in defense spending, which I've seen figures between 600billion to 980billion dollars so that we can use those funds to stop two senseless wars and making deals with private defense contractors so that we can use that money to get more people health care, access to a proper education, and better civil service, then yes, label me as a suspicious enemy of the state.

I take that as a compliment.

The point of my 'rant' is not to sway people to vote for me if I am trying to get elected (which again, shows that your morals are misplaced. That implication you make that asking for peace will not get you elected to a political office shows that instead of presenting your platform based upon morals and principles believed, one shoud betray those principles for the sake of gaining the political office), the point is to get the point across.

In your earlier post, you suggested that we have to defend our interests against China. Now you are saying that we don't have to defend ourselves against China (my original claim). Now you claim that China will be used as the boogie man to scare Americans into the thought that we must spend more money on defense when America's consternation of Chinese dominion is unwarranted if America stops its dogged attempt to be the dominion. In order to do that, you have to spend money, apparently billions of dollars. The school I did an after school program got shut down because its students were failing state tests (Mass.) Are you kidding me?! That's ridiculous.

Now Obama just mentioned that among other things, we have to deal with getting the NFL labor dispute solved: BREAD & CIRCUS. Who gives a fuck about football when crunching numbers to boost employment so that people can spend money to buy shit they don't need so that the Waltons can sit in their compounds counting money with little golden giraffes because they were

able to get their products made cheaply in China, where their Chinese factory workers live in squalor. Capitalism - you make money to buy shit so the company can make money to make more shit for you to buy; while all of this is happening, who are you?

There's no oil in Afghanistan? A simple google endeavor will clearly show you are not informed as you think you are:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/oil-field-discovered-in-afghanistan-2053829.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan_Oil_Pipeline

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2010/08/20108159431776396.html

http://www.thedebate.org/thedebate/afghanistan.asp

http://original.antiwar.com/bock/2009/03/23/afghanistan-all-about-oil/

Whether or not you agree or disagree that America doesn't need Afghanistan to provide her with oil, you cannot deny that Afghanistan has oil! Coincidence? No - Bush, who had obvious ties to the oil industry, knew what he was doing. Any superpower in this world who subsists on gas and natural gas wants to get her hands in Afghanistan in any way possible.

The rich are opining about being taxed higher than the poor. The poor and seniors are

crying that they are not helped enough. Republicans and Democrats (a two party political

system does not work. Ask George Washington).) are arguing over a budget. I have an idea:

make us all equal. Do it. Somehow.

1. Increasing defense spending will not stabilize the economy. It's a drag on the economy.

2. Politicians have to ask for votes to be elected and they pander.

Show me a gubernatorial or Presidential candidate who made peace a theme of their campaign.

Even during the protests to the war in Iraq, people wanted soldiers home, not defense cut so that money could be better utilized elsewhere. Don't blame me for the system. I'm not running for office based on betraying my values. Don't hate me for pointing out the obvious, that others do.

3. Two of those comments regarding China I was being facetious. I don't see China as a military enemy just an economic rival. Americans are used to being dominant. Hard habit to break.

duccichucka said:

SUPRMAN said:

C'mon. Government, corporations, special interest lobbies, the military/industrial complex are all composed of people. They would not exist without the people who show up to work there everyday.

These same people are your family, friends, neighbors, associates, co-workers in some cases.

Government is not faceless. Everyone in government and acting on the government's behalf, goes home after work or somewhere and leads their life.

Billions on defense is because no one gets elected by saying we should cut defense spending.

If people wanted defense spending cut to balance the budget, we could. But suggest it and you are painted a druggy peacenik refugee from a pacifist liberal college disconnected from the real world.

We have to defend ourselves against China right?

Yes, of course people make up these institutions I'm railing against. And these people are motivated by money, dude. Money. Not stability. Not peace. Not liberty. Not freedom.

Cream.

The Government is indeed faceless. Why aren't there 24hour cameras in White House meetings? Someone is making decisions and we aren't 100% privy to. Do you know all the faces and people who work in the CIA, FBI, NSA? No, you do not. There are integral aspects of US governance that is faceless.

You can't be this naive to think that the good ol' red, white and blue is not concerned with how you live, can you? I believe in cutting the defense budget and I'm not a druggy peacenik refugee from a pacifist liberal arts college disconnected from the world:

1. A druggy peacenik refugee from a pacifist liberal arts college is clearly not disconected from the world, can absolutely have an informed and sound opinion and does not have to be entirely concerned with how they are 'painted'

2. Again, look at what you are saying: you are using the word 'peacenik' pejoratively. Are you kidding me? Peaceniks want peace. What the fuck is going on here? I'm debating a dude who has problems with peace?

3. We absolutely do NOT have to defend ourselves against China. Throw down your guns, stop trying to position yourself as a major global superpower and get down to helping out your own citizens in a country where the minority (which is paradoxically the majority) is suffering dude.

I can't believe I'm having this conversation. You would rather have spend billions of dollars on arms to defend our country against China than to spend billions of dollars so that our quality of life is better? The only reason why China would be our enemy is if both countries are jostling for world dominion. America needs world dominion to pay for her materialism. Jeezus,does anybody around here read? Marx is not Satan. Gramsci is not Satan. Something stinks and it's American materialism being fed by capitalism under the guise of providing the world (Afghanistan, Iraq, Kuwait) freedom. America wants a pipeline for oil in Afghanistan and we are going to get it, god dammit.

I'm bowing out of this debate.

It's bread and circus all over again, man; fucken bread and circus.

4. Oil in Afghanistan - A pipeline through Afghanistan to send oil to China does not count as Afghani production. Show me Afghani oil production that makes it so vital.

Right there at #200 in the world. So if we are there for oil, we are dumber than dumb.

Rank	Country	Oil - production (bbl/day)
1	Saudi Arabia	11,000,000
2	Russia	9,870,000
3	United States	8,322,000
4	Iran	4,150,000
5	Mexico	3,784,000
6	China	3,730,000
7	Canada	3,092,000
8	Norway	2,978,000
9	Venezuela	2,802,000
10	Kuwait	2,669,000
11	United Arab Emirates	2,540,000
12	Nigeria	2,440,000
13	Iraq	2,110,000
14	Algeria	2,090,000
15	United Kingdom	1,861,000
16	Libya	1,720,000
17	Brazil	1,590,000
18	Kazakhstan	1,338,000
19	Angola	1,260,000
20	Qatar	1,111,000
21	Indonesia	1,070,000
22	Azerbaijan	934,700
23	India	834,600
24	Argentina	801,700
25	Malaysia	751,800
26	Oman	740,000
27	Egypt	688,100
28	Australia	572,400
29	Colombia	539,000
30	Ecuador	538,000
31	Yemen	402,000
32	Sudan	397,000
33	Equatorial Guinea	396,100
34	Syria	380,000
35	Denmark	342,000
36	Vietnam	319,500
37	Thailand	310,900
38	Gabon	266,000
39	Congo, Republic of the	235,900
40	Congo, Democratic Republic of the	235,900
41	Brunei	219,300
42	South Africa	200,000
43	Turkmenistan	196,000
44	Bahrain	184,000
45	Chad	176,700
46	Italy	164,800
47	Germany	141,700
48	Japan	125,000
49	Uzbekistan	124,900
50	Romania	122,700
	EDITED CHART
		0
197	Bermuda	0
198	Bahamas, The	0
199	Antigua and Barbuda	0
200	Afghanistan	0
201	American Samoa	0
202	Armenia	0
203	Bosnia and Herzegovina	0
204	Benin	0
205	Solomon Islands	0
206	Bhutan	0
207	Sri Lanka	0
208	Burundi	0
209	Cambodia	0

Definition: This entry is the total oil produced in barrels per day (bbl/day). The discrepancy between the amount of oil produced and/or imported and the amount consumed and/or exported is due to the omission of stock changes, refinery gains, and other complicating factors.

Source: CIA World Factbook - Unless otherwise noted, information in this page is accurate as of January 1, 2009

http://www.indexmundi.com...f&v=88

[Edited 7/11/11 14:40pm]

Mexicans don't even want to come here any more. That's pretty bad. lol

SUPRMAN said:

duccichucka said:

Yes, of course people make up these institutions I'm railing against. And these people are motivated by money, dude. Money. Not stability. Not peace. Not liberty. Not freedom.

Cream.

The Government is indeed faceless. Why aren't there 24hour cameras in White House meetings? Someone is making decisions and we aren't 100% privy to. Do you know all the faces and people who work in the CIA, FBI, NSA? No, you do not. There are integral aspects of US governance that is faceless.

You can't be this naive to think that the good ol' red, white and blue is not concerned with how you live, can you? I believe in cutting the defense budget and I'm not a druggy peacenik refugee from a pacifist liberal arts college disconnected from the world:

1. A druggy peacenik refugee from a pacifist liberal arts college is clearly not disconected from the world, can absolutely have an informed and sound opinion and does not have to be entirely concerned with how they are 'painted'

2. Again, look at what you are saying: you are using the word 'peacenik' pejoratively. Are you kidding me? Peaceniks want peace. What the fuck is going on here? I'm debating a dude who has problems with peace?

3. We absolutely do NOT have to defend ourselves against China. Throw down your guns, stop trying to position yourself as a major global superpower and get down to helping out your own citizens in a country where the minority (which is paradoxically the majority) is suffering dude.

I can't believe I'm having this conversation. You would rather have spend billions of dollars on arms to defend our country against China than to spend billions of dollars so that our quality of life is better? The only reason why China would be our enemy is if both countries are jostling for world dominion. America needs world dominion to pay for her materialism. Jeezus,does anybody around here read? Marx is not Satan. Gramsci is not Satan. Something stinks and it's American materialism being fed by capitalism under the guise of providing the world (Afghanistan, Iraq, Kuwait) freedom. America wants a pipeline for oil in Afghanistan and we are going to get it, god dammit.

I'm bowing out of this debate.

It's bread and circus all over again, man; fucken bread and circus.

4. Oil in Afghanistan - A pipeline through Afghanistan to send oil to China does not count as Afghani production. Show me Afghani oil production that makes it so vital.

Right there at #200 in the world. So if we are there for oil, we are dumber than dumb.

Country Comparison > Oil - production

Rank	Country	Oil - production (bbl/day)
1	Saudi Arabia	11,000,000
2	Russia	9,870,000
3	United States	8,322,000
4	Iran	4,150,000
5	Mexico	3,784,000
6	China	3,730,000
7	Canada	3,092,000
8	Norway	2,978,000
9	Venezuela	2,802,000
10	Kuwait	2,669,000
11	United Arab Emirates	2,540,000
12	Nigeria	2,440,000
13	Iraq	2,110,000
14	Algeria	2,090,000
15	United Kingdom	1,861,000
16	Libya	1,720,000
17	Brazil	1,590,000
18	Kazakhstan	1,338,000
19	Angola	1,260,000
20	Qatar	1,111,000
21	Indonesia	1,070,000
22	Azerbaijan	934,700
23	India	834,600
24	Argentina	801,700
25	Malaysia	751,800
26	Oman	740,000
27	Egypt	688,100
28	Australia	572,400
29	Colombia	539,000
30	Ecuador	538,000
31	Yemen	402,000
32	Sudan	397,000
33	Equatorial Guinea	396,100
34	Syria	380,000
35	Denmark	342,000
36	Vietnam	319,500
37	Thailand	310,900
38	Gabon	266,000
39	Congo, Republic of the	235,900
40	Congo, Democratic Republic of the	235,900
41	Brunei	219,300
42	South Africa	200,000
43	Turkmenistan	196,000
44	Bahrain	184,000
45	Chad	176,700
46	Italy	164,800
47	Germany	141,700
48	Japan	125,000
49	Uzbekistan	124,900
50	Romania	122,700
	EDITED CHART
		0
197	Bermuda	0
198	Bahamas, The	0
199	Antigua and Barbuda	0
200	Afghanistan	0
201	American Samoa	0
202	Armenia	0
203	Bosnia and Herzegovina	0
204	Benin	0
205	Solomon Islands	0
206	Bhutan	0
207	Sri Lanka	0
208	Burundi	0
209	Cambodia	0

Definition: This entry is the total oil produced in barrels per day (bbl/day). The discrepancy between the amount of oil produced and/or imported and the amount consumed and/or exported is due to the omission of stock changes, refinery gains, and other complicating factors.

Source: CIA World Factbook - Unless otherwise noted, information in this page is accurate as of January 1, 2009

http://www.indexmundi.com...f&v=88

[Edited 7/11/11 14:40pm]

This doesn't prove that there is no oil in Afghanistan, but rather that there is no production. Considering the turmoil the country is going through, it is clear to see why their is no production.

buist said:

SUPRMAN said:

4. Oil in Afghanistan - A pipeline through Afghanistan to send oil to China does not count as Afghani production. Show me Afghani oil production that makes it so vital.

Right there at #200 in the world. So if we are there for oil, we are dumber than dumb.

Country Comparison > Oil - production

Rank	Country	Oil - production (bbl/day)
1	Saudi Arabia	11,000,000
2	Russia	9,870,000
3	United States	8,322,000
4	Iran	4,150,000
5	Mexico	3,784,000
6	China	3,730,000
7	Canada	3,092,000
8	Norway	2,978,000
9	Venezuela	2,802,000
10	Kuwait	2,669,000
11	United Arab Emirates	2,540,000
12	Nigeria	2,440,000
13	Iraq	2,110,000
14	Algeria	2,090,000
15	United Kingdom	1,861,000
16	Libya	1,720,000
17	Brazil	1,590,000
18	Kazakhstan	1,338,000
19	Angola	1,260,000
20	Qatar	1,111,000
21	Indonesia	1,070,000
22	Azerbaijan	934,700
23	India	834,600
24	Argentina	801,700
25	Malaysia	751,800
26	Oman	740,000
27	Egypt	688,100
28	Australia	572,400
29	Colombia	539,000
30	Ecuador	538,000
31	Yemen	402,000
32	Sudan	397,000
33	Equatorial Guinea	396,100
34	Syria	380,000
35	Denmark	342,000
36	Vietnam	319,500
37	Thailand	310,900
38	Gabon	266,000
39	Congo, Republic of the	235,900
40	Congo, Democratic Republic of the	235,900
41	Brunei	219,300
42	South Africa	200,000
43	Turkmenistan	196,000
44	Bahrain	184,000
45	Chad	176,700
46	Italy	164,800
47	Germany	141,700
48	Japan	125,000
49	Uzbekistan	124,900
50	Romania	122,700
	EDITED CHART
		0
197	Bermuda	0
198	Bahamas, The	0
199	Antigua and Barbuda	0
200	Afghanistan	0
201	American Samoa	0
202	Armenia	0
203	Bosnia and Herzegovina	0
204	Benin	0
205	Solomon Islands	0
206	Bhutan	0
207	Sri Lanka	0
208	Burundi	0
209	Cambodia	0

Definition: This entry is the total oil produced in barrels per day (bbl/day). The discrepancy between the amount of oil produced and/or imported and the amount consumed and/or exported is due to the omission of stock changes, refinery gains, and other complicating factors.

Source: CIA World Factbook - Unless otherwise noted, information in this page is accurate as of January 1, 2009

http://www.indexmundi.com...f&v=88

[Edited 7/11/11 14:40pm]

This doesn't prove that there is no oil in Afghanistan, but rather that there is no production. Considering the turmoil the country is going through, it is clear to see why their is no production.

There is obviously oil there because the countries surrounding them have oil.

^

I do not know about oil, but Afghanistan does have vast mineral riches.

http://www.nytimes.com/20...erals.html

By JAMES RISEN

Published: June 13, 2010

WASHINGTON — The United States has discovered nearly $1 trillion in untapped mineral deposits in Afghanistan, far beyond any previously known reserves and enough to fundamentally alter the Afghan economy and perhaps the Afghan war itself, according to senior American government officials.

The previously unknown deposits — including huge veins of iron, copper, cobalt, gold and critical industrial metals like lithium — are so big and include so many minerals that are essential to modern industry that Afghanistan could eventually be transformed into one of the most important mining centers in the world, the United States officials believe.

An internal Pentagon memo, for example, states that Afghanistan could become the “Saudi Arabia of lithium,” a key raw material in the manufacture of batteries for laptops and BlackBerrys.

The vast scale of Afghanistan’s mineral wealth was discovered by a small team of Pentagon officials and American geologists. The Afghan government and President Hamid Karzai were recently briefed, American officials said.

duccichucka said:

dJJ said:

I love it when orgers really try to understand eachother and consider eachothers' opinions in stead of venting their own without seriously considering where the other person is coming from.

Let's not start a war on the org, stay polite and respectfull to eachother. Usually that style of communicating leads to more positive and openminded discussions. So we can learn from eachother in stead of dissing eachother.

Yes, but come to the discussion with information and not simply an opinion. Opinions are

just like armpits: everyone has two and they both stink.

Proof of assertion notwithstanding, this argument has quickly become ad nauseum. I will not

budge unless presented facts (I have presented a few in order to strengthen my argument - which, if I remember, is what is needed in a debate/discussion); but until then, I believe that Superman is woefully uninformed. I believe that America's interests are unwarranted while Suprman believes that the course America has taken and its pace in doing so, is warranted. When facts are provided to buttress this opinion, I'll give way for budging.

America is just like any other nation on earth - where her flaws are overt, her good qualities are just as well. As I've stated earlier in this thread, America can't be all that bad: she donates more money to charity than any other nation on Earth. But all I'm saying is that America's flaws are stupidly self-imposed and unnecessary given its current political and economical system.

Blame that on human beings.

We are not as lofty as our ideals and ideas.

For the record. I believe this country always could have done better. But I also understand that abolishing slavery from the country's inception would have meant there would not have been a united 13 colonies.

Would I sacrifice what I know of U.S. history for an unknown where the U.S. may not even exist?

No I would not.

World history would have been different. The United States also does not act and/or operate in a vacuum and never has. Other nations do impact the U.S.

There is no way I can provide facts for the position you've said I've taken.

How do you prove America's interests are unwarranted? By what standard? What YOU think?

Russia, China, Iran, North Korea, and likely a whole host of nations would probably agree with you but based on their own interests, not your opinion.

IshmaelB said:

duccichucka said:

America is just like any other nation on earth - where her flaws are overt, her good qualities are just as well.

The U.S. is a culture and government of occupation. It's been so since its inception. And today its the world's imperialist boss.

America can't be all that bad: she donates more money to charity than any other nation on Earth.

I'd like to see you back that up. What charities? Who's giving: tax payers or private donors?

Low hanging fruit . . . . .

[EDITED]

In 2006, Americans gave about $295 billion to charity. This was up 4.2 percent over 2005 levels, and charitable giving has generally risen faster than the growth of the American economy for more than half a century. Correcting for inflation and population changes, GDP per person in America has risen over the past 50 years by about 150 percent, while charitable giving per person has risen by about 190 percent. That is, the average American family has gotten much richer in real terms over the past half century, and charitable giving has more than kept pace with this trend.

Q. Are Americans more or less charitable than citizens of other countries?
A. No developed country approaches American giving. For example, in 1995 (the most recent year for which data are available), Americans gave, per capita, three and a half times as much to causes and charities as the French, seven times as much as the Germans, and 14 times as much as the Italians. Similarly, in 1998, Americans were 15 percent more likely to volunteer their time than the Dutch, 21 percent more likely than the Swiss, and 32 percent more likely than the Germans. These differences are not attributable to demographic characteristics such as education, income, age, sex, or marital status. On the contrary, if we look at two people who are identical in all these ways except that one is European and the other American, the probability is still far lower that the European will volunteer than the American.

[EDITED]

http://www.american.com/a...-of-givers

buist said:

buist said:

This doesn't prove that there is no oil in Afghanistan, but rather that there is no production. Considering the turmoil the country is going through, it is clear to see why their is no production.

There is obviously oil there because the countries surrounding them have oil.

So why is Iraq # 13?

There could be up to 36.5 trillion cubic feet of natural gas and 3.6 billion barrels of crude oil lying undiscovered under the sands of war-torn Afghanistan, the U.S. Geological Survey said on Tuesday. A first-ever assessment of Afghanistan’s energy potential, funded by the U.S. Trade and Development Agency and undertaken by the USGS and Afghanistan’s Ministry of Mines and Industry, gave mid-range estimates of about 1.6 billion barrels of crude oil and 15.7 trillion cubic feet of natural gas. That’s nothing compared to OPEC heavyweight Saudi Arabia which has about 260 billion barrels of proven oil reserves, and Russia’s 1.68 quadrillion cubic feet of natural gas reserves – both the world’s largest. But it’s enough that Afghanistan has asked the U.S. government for advice on how to run a potential bidding round to woo foreign investors to explore.

http://gheorghe47.wordpre...dentified/

So Afghanistan has less than one half of one percent of the oil reserves of Saudi Arabia. Whoop-de-doo.

According to Ernst & Young’s 4th annual US exploration and production benchmarkstudy, oil reserves grew by 11% to 17.8 billion barrels in 2010 and natural gas by 12% to 174.3 trillion cu. ft., the strongest oil and gas reserve growth in the last five years.

http://www.bizmology.com/...w-in-2010/

If we were really going to war for our own U.S. oil supplies, we could have started with Cuba and Venezuela.

And, the one fact everyone keeps choosing to ignore is the majority of imported oil into the U.S. comes from Canada and Mexico, our two largest suppliers.

I agree that US led wars in Iraq and other parts of the Middle east key into its insatiable greed for oil and other resources, especially as we may run out of fossil fuel by 2076 and no doubt it will be some American gaz guzzler like a El Tanko, 7 litre 4WD that guzzles it. If Americans are so sincere about the environment, why have they not developed electric cars or biofuels beyond a few percent of the market. Owning anything other than a gas guzzling 3 litre or more tank like Hummer is seen as gay or poor to the average American. These attitudes have taken route here too. 4wd or SUVs as some call them are gas consuming, smoking belching pollutobowls, some Trabants and Moskovitches polluted less than these pieces of shit do. Here most of them are owned by poor families who blast American rap music from them and they belch smoke like crazy, as most of the ones you see date from like 1993 or earlier.

Saying that the USA is Islamophobic is garbage, because they are big allies with Saudi Arabia, which is the most extremist hard core hated filled country on earth. Anyone who isn't a Muslim is practically banned (Except super rich white people), they tolerate Saudi Arabia because of its huge oil wealth. Iraq and Afghanistan like most of the Middle east are poor ecept for the oil, and without the oil, do you think they would have cared about Saddam Hussein, The Taliban or anyone else. No they did it all, as it was - get that oil, good old American economic colonialism. Maybe the reason too why Libya and Syria could be good buddies for the USA as they need to get rid of Bashir and Ghaddafi, both anti USA.

In fact theres a lot morer hate attacks aimed at Jews and Gays, if anything I would call the USA to account for the Saudi Arabias widespread bashing of women, gays, Jews and even fellow muslims (The exploitation of South Asians for instance and sub saharan African Muslims (Mostly Sunni and more liberal rather than Shia or Wahhabbi).

No one squawks about the amount of Anti Semitism, yet the moment you dare inveigle Islam you are labelled racist and islamaphobic.

[Edited 7/11/11 18:55pm]

U DONT SAY!!!!!!

V10LETBLUES said:

I do not know about oil, but Afghanistan does have vast mineral riches.

And billions and billions of $ in heroin. 90 % of the word’s heroin comes out of Afghanistan.

Adorecream said:

If Americans are so sincere about the environment, why have they not developed electric cars ... beyond a few percent of the market.

Electric cars have been successfully developed, but they were swapped down by the corporate Powers That (shouldn't) Be as their existence would cut into corporate profits.

Money = Power & Power = Money.

IshmaelB said:

Adorecream said:

If Americans are so sincere about the environment, why have they not developed electric cars ... beyond a few percent of the market.

Electric cars have been successfully developed, but they were swapped down by the corporate Powers That (shouldn't) Be as their existence would cut into corporate profits.

Money = Power & Power = Money.

Exactly the corporations and powers that be, have decided that gas guzzling tanks are more profit in the long term. Electric cars are too marginal for them (Cheap construction, lack of power - most need recharging after a few hours driving etc)

The USA is the most hated and despised country in the world? Not Saudi Arabia, not Sudan, not Turkmenistan, some of biggest human rights violators in the world, but the United States of America where everyone has a computer with access to all the world's knowledge and information in their pocket, where there is such an abundance of food that there is actually an obesity problem AMONG THE POOR!!

America just gets a lot of negative press because people expect America to be the best, most free, most prosperous, most charitable nation in the world and it falls short some of the time. Expectations are high. People criticize America because some people in the country don't have easy access to its world-class health care. People criticize America because not everyone in the country can get a world-class education at its ive-league universities that are the envy of the world. People criticize America because the poorest Americans (which are some of the richest worldwide) are far less rich than the richest Americans.

America definitely has its problems, but it is because America has problems at all that people around the world are more critical. They expect America to be the envy of the world, the greatest nation on the planet, and it doesn't always meet those expectations. I'm sure there's also a huge temptation, given America's history of being #1 in the world, for other countries to gloat when they have more universal access to lesser quality health care, or higher literacy rates, lower incarceration rates, more income equality, a leader with a higher IQ score, than America. It's natural.

Adorecream said:

I will offer my two cents and the Kiwi point of view. Since 1984 we have not been friends with the USA because of its pro nuclear stance, NZ is proudly and strongly nuclear free. Other reasons the Yanks snub us.

Don't take offense at this, we are more neutral/friendly towards USA rather than hostile, its just we are no their bitch like the UK and our neighbour Australia is. Also relations have warmed lately due to our respect of Barack Obama and the right wing pro US government in power.

Reasons Americans may not like us

1. Nuclear Free

2. History of left wing anti war governments

3. Lack of full participation in American fought wars (Garbage as there are Kiwi troops in Afghanistan and Iraq and they were in the Vietnam conflict)

4. Lack of cultural similarity such as the way we spell words, like of sports like rugby and cricket, and the fact we barely play or understand basketball or baseball (We call it softball and its only minorly popular).

5. We are a tiny country that can offer no possible gain to the USA except as a possible colony

6. We call them Americans, I though America stretched from Alaska to Chile, it should be USA or US

7. Lack of cultural affinity with US people and their obsession with Black, Hispanic and Germanic white culture (Why is every white guy got a name like Chester Krause or Billy Bob Hauser). In New Zealand most of us have an Anglo Saxon or Celtic culture and a strong Polynesian Element, Anglo Saxon Americans are virtually limited to the poor south and the Polynesian element is virtually absent except in Hawaii.

Reasons we may not like Americans

1. We don't like their use and praise for Nuclear Power

2. We don't like their gunboat diplomacy in the middle east

3. A lot of US popular culture we find morally repugnant,crass and materialistic ie the sexy bimbo ho culture, spoilt starlets like Kardashians Hilton etc, Hip hop culture and its destructive effects on at risk ethnic groups here.

4. The way the Americans think they run the world and that any war America fights must be good and the world should jump in line and follow

5. Lo brow culture, American programming is much less sophisticated and relies on shock value, slapstick satire and gross commercialisation for example, the American Version of Antiques roadshow, shows more collectables than true antiques and a treasure chest runs a cross the screen when they announce the value. British humour is more sophisticated than that and we appreciate the dignity and hi brow culture of Britain and Europe.

6. Socially irresponsible behaviour like extreme sex, obesity, crime, antisocial behaviour

7. Hypocrisy, the home of lunatic right wing Christian churches (Christian Taleban)

8. The fact most of them are ignorant about New Zealanders and their country, most do not know of it or confuse it with/ or as Australia or parts of Europe.

9. The fact we have been snubbed because of our pacifist non nuclear socialistic mentality.

10. The fact we can not watch a lot of Youtube videos as American copyrights marginalise us for not being American

BUT - Reasons we love America now too (Lest this be a doom fest)

1. Some American popular culture we truly love, programmes, books, singers like Prince for instance

2. The fact that Americans at least try to do right (We actually can see the danger of militant Islam too)

3. The Christian morals some Americans purpot to have

4. Some of the moderation movements over toleration are American (For instance most ethnic minorities and Gays have a debt of gratitude to the American pioneers that encourage the spread of tolerant ideas around the world)

5. The Democratic principles of the American ideal

6. America's doctorine of self empowerment and the lack of a true class system, under American Capitalism everyone could be rich if the wanted.

7. American food, come on, its a guilty pleasure, Coca Cola, Burgers, Fries, Chips, Corn Dogs, Chili dogs, Donuts, Cornflakes - all great American inventions

8. The Internet (Invented by Americans)

9. The Free Press (Freedom of the Press originated with the US Constitution)

10. Human Rights and the UN (Based in America)

11. Barack Obama, America's best leader in over a century, espouses everything about the liberal American ideal

New Zealand is a cool country. No farm subsidies, a successful privatization trend that saved New Zealand from bankruptcy, it's one of the freest market economies in the world, among the highest GDP per capita in the world. As a libertarian, New Zealand is a very tempting country to move to in the future.

DarlingDiana said:

Adorecream said:

I will offer my two cents and the Kiwi point of view. Since 1984 we have not been friends with the USA because of its pro nuclear stance, NZ is proudly and strongly nuclear free. Other reasons the Yanks snub us.

Don't take offense at this, we are more neutral/friendly towards USA rather than hostile, its just we are no their bitch like the UK and our neighbour Australia is. Also relations have warmed lately due to our respect of Barack Obama and the right wing pro US government in power.

Reasons Americans may not like us

1. Nuclear Free

2. History of left wing anti war governments

3. Lack of full participation in American fought wars (Garbage as there are Kiwi troops in Afghanistan and Iraq and they were in the Vietnam conflict)

4. Lack of cultural similarity such as the way we spell words, like of sports like rugby and cricket, and the fact we barely play or understand basketball or baseball (We call it softball and its only minorly popular).

5. We are a tiny country that can offer no possible gain to the USA except as a possible colony

6. We call them Americans, I though America stretched from Alaska to Chile, it should be USA or US

7. Lack of cultural affinity with US people and their obsession with Black, Hispanic and Germanic white culture (Why is every white guy got a name like Chester Krause or Billy Bob Hauser). In New Zealand most of us have an Anglo Saxon or Celtic culture and a strong Polynesian Element, Anglo Saxon Americans are virtually limited to the poor south and the Polynesian element is virtually absent except in Hawaii.

Reasons we may not like Americans

1. We don't like their use and praise for Nuclear Power

2. We don't like their gunboat diplomacy in the middle east

3. A lot of US popular culture we find morally repugnant,crass and materialistic ie the sexy bimbo ho culture, spoilt starlets like Kardashians Hilton etc, Hip hop culture and its destructive effects on at risk ethnic groups here.

4. The way the Americans think they run the world and that any war America fights must be good and the world should jump in line and follow

5. Lo brow culture, American programming is much less sophisticated and relies on shock value, slapstick satire and gross commercialisation for example, the American Version of Antiques roadshow, shows more collectables than true antiques and a treasure chest runs a cross the screen when they announce the value. British humour is more sophisticated than that and we appreciate the dignity and hi brow culture of Britain and Europe.

6. Socially irresponsible behaviour like extreme sex, obesity, crime, antisocial behaviour

7. Hypocrisy, the home of lunatic right wing Christian churches (Christian Taleban)

8. The fact most of them are ignorant about New Zealanders and their country, most do not know of it or confuse it with/ or as Australia or parts of Europe.

9. The fact we have been snubbed because of our pacifist non nuclear socialistic mentality.

10. The fact we can not watch a lot of Youtube videos as American copyrights marginalise us for not being American

BUT - Reasons we love America now too (Lest this be a doom fest)

1. Some American popular culture we truly love, programmes, books, singers like Prince for instance

2. The fact that Americans at least try to do right (We actually can see the danger of militant Islam too)

3. The Christian morals some Americans purpot to have

4. Some of the moderation movements over toleration are American (For instance most ethnic minorities and Gays have a debt of gratitude to the American pioneers that encourage the spread of tolerant ideas around the world)

5. The Democratic principles of the American ideal

6. America's doctorine of self empowerment and the lack of a true class system, under American Capitalism everyone could be rich if the wanted.

7. American food, come on, its a guilty pleasure, Coca Cola, Burgers, Fries, Chips, Corn Dogs, Chili dogs, Donuts, Cornflakes - all great American inventions

8. The Internet (Invented by Americans)

9. The Free Press (Freedom of the Press originated with the US Constitution)

10. Human Rights and the UN (Based in America)

11. Barack Obama, America's best leader in over a century, espouses everything about the liberal American ideal

New Zealand is a cool country. No farm subsidies, a successful privatization trend that saved New Zealand from bankruptcy, it's one of the freest market economies in the world, among the highest GDP per capita in the world. As a libertarian, New Zealand is a very tempting country to move to in the future.

The fact that the population in New Zealand is a little over 4 million might make it a little easier to manage, dont you think? California alone has 37 million.

IshmaelB said:

The US government has killed many people all around the world throughout its history, right up to this very hour. It was founded on the murdering of millions of native americans.

The US has enslaved millions of Africans, raped them, murdered them, and denied them of basic human rights. Even after the Jim Crow laws were abolished the US government was dilberatley harming black americans in other ways, such as selling crack and guns in the black ghettos.

The US government has installed puppet regimes in nations all over the world, stolen nations' resources, dropped atomic bombs on innocent civilians.

In nations where actual democracy has flourished/began to develop, the US government has destroyed it*, whilst turning a blind eye to the lack of democracy and disgusting human rights record in nations whose puppet leaders serve US (corporate) interests abroad.

* The US government has military bases everywhere in the world that basically serve this aim.

Read your history books. Slavery of Africans was something that was brought to America from the culture that was already created in Europe.

This whole idea that slavery culminated in America is rubbish. The hot-bed for slavery oddly enough was in northern africa. It was adapted to portugal and spain during the exploration race, and brought to America with the settlers who came from Europe.

So, to isolate America as a nation of slavery is not historically accurate.

13cjk13 said:

DarlingDiana said:

New Zealand is a cool country. No farm subsidies, a successful privatization trend that saved New Zealand from bankruptcy, it's one of the freest market economies in the world, among the highest GDP per capita in the world. As a libertarian, New Zealand is a very tempting country to move to in the future.

The fact that the population in New Zealand is a little over 4 million might make it a little easier to manage, dont you think? California alone has 37 million.

Yeah, smaller populations are easier to manage but I think were New Zealand has succeeded is where they haven't tried to manage the people or the country or the economy and have left it up to free enterprise. In fact, the bigger the population, the harder it is to manage, so the more sense it makes not to try to manage such a big population and economy such as California's. Don't you think?

seekingtruth said:

IshmaelB said:

The US government has killed many people all around the world throughout its history, right up to this very hour. It was founded on the murdering of millions of native americans.

The US has enslaved millions of Africans, raped them, murdered them, and denied them of basic human rights. Even after the Jim Crow laws were abolished the US government was dilberatley harming black americans in other ways, such as selling crack and guns in the black ghettos.

The US government has installed puppet regimes in nations all over the world, stolen nations' resources, dropped atomic bombs on innocent civilians.

In nations where actual democracy has flourished/began to develop, the US government has destroyed it*, whilst turning a blind eye to the lack of democracy and disgusting human rights record in nations whose puppet leaders serve US (corporate) interests abroad.

* The US government has military bases everywhere in the world that basically serve this aim.

Read your history books. Slavery of Africans was something that was brought to America from the culture that was already created in Europe.

This whole idea that slavery culminated in America is rubbish. The hot-bed for slavery oddly enough was in northern africa. It was adapted to portugal and spain during the exploration race, and brought to America with the settlers who came from Europe.

So, to isolate America as a nation of slavery is not historically accurate.

and who captured the slaves to be sold?

DarlingDiana said:

The USA is the most hated and despised country in the world? Not Saudi Arabia, not Sudan, not Turkmenistan, some of biggest human rights violators in the world, but the United States of America where...

I believe the subject is the U.S. government. And, yes, the U.S. government is a global cop for a supremely rich/powerful plutocracy unparalleled in its scope and ruthlessness.

seekingtruth said:

IshmaelB said:

The US has enslaved millions of Africans, raped them, murdered them, and denied them of basic human rights.

This whole idea that slavery culminated in America is rubbish. T

That's not what I'm pointing out, and you know that.

The US has enslaved millions of Africans, raped them, murdered them, and denied them of basic human rights. That is a fact.

DarlingDiana said:

13cjk13 said:

The fact that the population in New Zealand is a little over 4 million might make it a little easier to manage, dont you think? California alone has 37 million.

Yeah, smaller populations are easier to manage but I think were New Zealand has succeeded is where they haven't tried to manage the people or the country or the economy and have left it up to free enterprise. In fact, the bigger the population, the harder it is to manage, so the more sense it makes not to try to manage such a big population and economy such as California's. Don't you think?

Yeah you are right in some respects. Corruption has increased since 2007, under a National Government that looks after businesses, also our Per Capita Income has dropped from 2nd in the world in 1957 (Behind the USA) to 26th this year and we are behind countries like Israel and Malta now. The Spanish and Greeks are richer than us. We have high unemployment, low welfare benefits, the manufacturing sector is dead and the country has a serious substance abuse problem. There is endemic child abuse amongst the Maori and Pacific Island populations, our economy is in tatters, due to government bungling, high taxes and massive redundancies in the public and defense sectors (1200 serving navy and airforce workers were laid off to save money), and the 3 deadly earthquakes in Christchurch have also added to the chaos. Plus we are having one of the most sever and stormy winters ever. I think I would like to live in the States over here.

For me it's your use of z instead of s and the absence of u's in words like colour. Owning a computer in the British English speaking part of the world really fucks me off.

Oh and Tom Cruise is a c... great films so why use him instead of someone who can act?

In all seriousness it's probably due to your insistence of invading quite defenceless countries after they fail to bow down to your hidden demands. Yet you haven't taken on China despite it's animal/human welfare. Probably because that would spark a world war and you would lose.

Of course being British I'm guilty of all the same but over a longer period of time. Other countries hate us too. Especially since they think we follow you guys (Americanism there look) into most battles (although we still haven't learnt to stand well back from your firing lines and targets).

I hate the Americans because you had a go at the French during Iraq. They have a pleasant country, stand up for what the believe in (post WW2) and have great food markets. Their chips (fries) are quite pleasant too.

Personally I love Italy the most. Stunning. And food to die for. And rather tidy cars.

iloveannie said:

For me it's your use of z instead of s and the absence of u's in words like colour. Owning a computer in the British English speaking part of the world really fucks me off.

Oh and Tom Cruise is a c... great films so why use him instead of someone who can act?

In all seriousness it's probably due to your insistence of invading quite defenceless countries after they fail to bow down to your hidden demands. Yet you haven't taken on China despite it's animal/human welfare. Probably because that would spark a world war and you would lose.

Of course being British I'm guilty of all the same but over a longer period of time. Other countries hate us too. Especially since they think we follow you guys (Americanism there look) into most battles (although we still haven't learnt to stand well back from your firing lines and targets).

I hate the Americans because you had a go at the French during Iraq. They have a pleasant country, stand up for what the believe in (post WW2) and have great food markets. Their chips (fries) are quite pleasant too.

Personally I love Italy the most. Stunning. And food to die for. And rather tidy cars.

If that were the case the capital of Taiwan would be Beijing.

China ain't close to taking on the U.S.

But the fact that they look they're aiming to do so one day, raised eyebrows on the eastern side of the Pacific. It's still our lake.

iloveannie said:

For me it's your use of z instead of s and the absence of u's in words like colour. Owning a computer in the British English speaking part of the world really fucks me off.

Oh and Tom Cruise is a c... great films so why use him instead of someone who can act?

In all seriousness it's probably due to your insistence of invading quite defenceless countries after they fail to bow down to your hidden demands. Yet you haven't taken on China despite it's animal/human welfare. Probably because that would spark a world war and you would lose.

Of course being British I'm guilty of all the same but over a longer period of time. Other countries hate us too. Especially since they think we follow you guys (Americanism there look) into most battles (although we still haven't learnt to stand well back from your firing lines and targets).

I hate the Americans because you had a go at the French during Iraq. They have a pleasant country, stand up for what the believe in (post WW2) and have great food markets. Their chips (fries) are quite pleasant too.

Personally I love Italy the most. Stunning. And food to die for. And rather tidy cars.

I hated that too. But that was only manufactured foolishness by some of our right wing crack-pots here by the likes of Bill O'Reilley and a few others. Our right wing here has been growing increasingly foolish. They even took a shot at the phrase "Happy Holidays" They called it a "war on Christmas"

Anyway, I think our screwy right-wing politicians are the cause for most of he so-called "Hate"; I don't like them very much either.

Heyheyhey, guys.....C'mon, EVERYBODY knows they hate us because of our freedoms.

Still yes.

It is just so easy to hate. Ppl like to do what is easiest.

Shanti0608 said:

It is just so easy to hate. Ppl like to do what is easiest.

The tallest nail gets hammered down first.

Vendetta1 said:

There are so many reasons to hate this country but I believe the main one is that we value money and material things over all else.

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Envy is poisonus

Its exactly answers like that which make the US unpopular. Its nothing to do with envy, its the hatred of the greed and arrogance of a large percentage of the population.

To many places in the world, America is like a cancer, spreading is unhealthly ways and greed culture everywhere it can in the name of economic growth.

To many Americas moral compass is broken in the name of money, ownership and beating someone else.

Your teen culture seems to me nothing more than telling boys to act like war mongerers and gangstas and girls to act like mall brats and beauty queens, and the power of the US TV channels around the world mean to many other cultures are being influenced by it.

Unfortunately, too many Americans are dumb to the outside world and the actions of a greedy minority of US business and congress men to see or care whats happening. As long as they get artifcially cheap gas and as much junk food as they want they are happy.

I find the arrogance quite amusing (as a Englishman, who are often accused of arrogance themselves) that so many Americans think that the so much of the world is envious, even when the countries the comments are coming from have a much higher standard of living and social care.

DarlingDiana said:

Shanti0608 said:

It is just so easy to hate. Ppl like to do what is easiest.

The tallest nail gets hammered down first.

So what makes it the tallest?

SquirrelMeat said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Envy is poisonus

Its exactly answers like that which make the US unpopular. Its nothing to do with envy, its the hatred of the greed and arrogance of a large percentage of the population.

To many places in the world, America is like a cancer, spreading is unhealthly ways and greed culture everywhere it can in the name of economic growth.

To many Americas moral compass is broken in the name of money, ownership and beating someone else.

Your teen culture seems to me nothing more than telling boys to act like war mongerers and gangstas and girls to act like mall brats and beauty queens, and the power of the US TV channels around the world mean to many other cultures are being influenced by it.

Unfortunately, too many Americans are dumb to the outside world and the actions of a greedy minority of US business and congress men to see or care whats happening. As long as they get artifcially cheap gas and as much junk food as they want they are happy.

I find the arrogance quite amusing (as a Englishman, who are often accused of arrogance themselves) that so many Americans think that the so much of the world is envious, even when the countries the comments are coming from have a much higher standard of living and social care.

I guess if you lump an entire country in one category and don't dig a little deeper, you might think all Americans are aggogant and greedy. I am American and have been living in the UK for almost five years now.

Whenever anyone asks me where I am from, they tell me that they are envious. Not in a hateful way but most of them have travelled to the US and loved it there.

Sadly, some ppl around the world only judge Americans by what they see on TV.

I have to say it but in my time here in the UK, I have seen greed and arrogance. I also see lots of ppl that are rude and fat here but I do not judge the entire country as a whole for what I see when I am out.

Yes, many Americans have not traveled outside of their country. A big part of that, at least for me and the ppl I know is the cost and amount of vacation time that we get.

I have come across a fair few ppl that put down the US yet have never been there.

I cannot change the negative views that I hear about the US, all I can do is try to be open minded myself and not judge other countries until I have actually spent time there. Even then I try not to judge because I know that all countries have good and bad in them.

Don't even get me started on the material possessions comments. I know a fair few Europeans that own expensive things and that also like their junk food.

If other countries don't like American then they should stop immitating them and wanting the same things that Americans have.

I just think some times it is too easy to blame the US for everything.

I am disturbed by the hatred some days. It spreads like a disease.

Shanti0608 said:

SquirrelMeat said:

Its exactly answers like that which make the US unpopular. Its nothing to do with envy, its the hatred of the greed and arrogance of a large percentage of the population.

To many places in the world, America is like a cancer, spreading is unhealthly ways and greed culture everywhere it can in the name of economic growth.

To many Americas moral compass is broken in the name of money, ownership and beating someone else.

Your teen culture seems to me nothing more than telling boys to act like war mongerers and gangstas and girls to act like mall brats and beauty queens, and the power of the US TV channels around the world mean to many other cultures are being influenced by it.

Unfortunately, too many Americans are dumb to the outside world and the actions of a greedy minority of US business and congress men to see or care whats happening. As long as they get artifcially cheap gas and as much junk food as they want they are happy.

I find the arrogance quite amusing (as a Englishman, who are often accused of arrogance themselves) that so many Americans think that the so much of the world is envious, even when the countries the comments are coming from have a much higher standard of living and social care.

I guess if you lump an entire country in one category and don't dig a little deeper, you might think all Americans are aggogant and greedy. I am American and have been living in the UK for almost five years now.

Whenever anyone asks me where I am from, they tell me that they are envious. Not in a hateful way but most of them have travelled to the US and loved it there.

Sadly, some ppl around the world only judge Americans by what they see on TV.

I have to say it but in my time here in the UK, I have seen greed and arrogance. I also see lots of ppl that are rude and fat here but I do not judge the entire country as a whole for what I see when I am out.

Yes, many Americans have not traveled outside of their country. A big part of that, at least for me and the ppl I know is the cost and amount of vacation time that we get.

I have come across a fair few ppl that put down the US yet have never been there.

I cannot change the negative views that I hear about the US, all I can do is try to be open minded myself and not judge other countries until I have actually spent time there. Even then I try not to judge because I know that all countries have good and bad in them.

Don't even get me started on the material possessions comments. I know a fair few Europeans that own expensive things and that also like their junk food.

If other countries don't like American then they should stop immitating them and wanting the same things that Americans have.

I just think some times it is too easy to blame the US for everything.

I am disturbed by the hatred some days. It spreads like a disease.

America, like any other country, is made up of people. Not all those people will be the same. I know plenty of stereotypical Americans and I know just as many that are not.

Just like any other global power, America tries to fill their own agenda, so obviously they'll step on some toes. It's just the world we live in.

Look at what we export: McDonalds shitburgers, country music, Wal-Mart, evil oil companies, Monsanto faux seeds. They should hate us...lol

Vendetta1 said:

There are so many reasons to hate this country but I believe the main one is that we value money and material things over all else.

I don't think we value money and material things over all else. I don't think we value them more than anyone else. We do happen to have more of both than anywhere else which is a source of envy which people translate into hate, maybe because they see it as unattainable for themselves.

Just about any reason other than our use of the military, can be applied to any other country.

As much good as this nation does globally, I think haters are just jealous.

SquirrelMeat said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Envy is poisonus

Its exactly answers like that which make the US unpopular. Its nothing to do with envy, its the hatred of the greed and arrogance of a large percentage of the population.

To many places in the world, America is like a cancer, spreading is unhealthly ways and greed culture everywhere it can in the name of economic growth.

To many Americas moral compass is broken in the name of money, ownership and beating someone else.

Your teen culture seems to me nothing more than telling boys to act like war mongerers and gangstas and girls to act like mall brats and beauty queens, and the power of the US TV channels around the world mean to many other cultures are being influenced by it.

Unfortunately, too many Americans are dumb to the outside world and the actions of a greedy minority of US business and congress men to see or care whats happening. As long as they get artifcially cheap gas and as much junk food as they want they are happy.

I find the arrogance quite amusing (as a Englishman, who are often accused of arrogance themselves) that so many Americans think that the so much of the world is envious, even when the countries the comments are coming from have a much higher standard of living and social care.

But does that make them a 'better place?'

That also doesn't mean they have carte blanche to criticize the U.S.

Your generalization of the U.S. suggests that its critics are largely uneducated and feeding on stereotypes seen on television.

If that's where they are coming from, well I'd tell fellow Americans to ignore them. I'd say they are as dumb about America as you accuse Americans of being about the world outside the U.S.

2freaky4church1 said:

Look at what we export: McDonalds shitburgers, country music, Wal-Mart, evil oil companies, Monsanto faux seeds. They should hate us...lol

Interesting that your single out Country Music and not Rock & Roll or any of the American music the rest of the world gobbles up and imitates (including country by the way). Cultural exports isn't something to laugh at. The rest of the world goes nuts for American music, American television, American movies and that's arguably of higher importance than anything else. Ronald Reagan didn't end Communism, American culture did, Rock & Roll did.

The Velvet Revolution in Czechoslovakia began in part when copies of 'The Velvet Underground and Nico' were smuggled in and a local band, The Plastic People of the Universes, started playing covers of songs from that album like 'Heroin'. They were arrested by the authorities because they didn't have an official license to play approved Soviet music. This was outrageous to many people including Vaclav Haval who became President of Czechoslovakia in 1989 after a long jail stint and led the country towards democracy and oversaw the peaceful splitting of the Czech Republican and Slovakia. He said, "a government that shuts down rock music like this is a government that does not deserve to be in power" and mirrored these words in the Charter 77 which the government called "an anti-state, anti-socialist, and demagogic, abusive piece of writing" and its signatories "traitors and renegades". It was deemed a political crime to spread the text of this document. But despite this Charter 77 became a movement than helped free Czechoslovakia and the Eastern Bloc and inspired similar movement in other parts of the world including the Arab world today.

[Edited 7/27/11 23:34pm]

DarlingDiana said:

2freaky4church1 said:

Look at what we export: McDonalds shitburgers, country music, Wal-Mart, evil oil companies, Monsanto faux seeds. They should hate us...lol

Interesting that your single out Country Music and not Rock & Roll or any of the American music the rest of the world gobbles up and imitates (including country by the way). Cultural exports isn't something to laugh at. The rest of the world goes nuts for American music, American television, American movies and that's arguably of higher importance than anything else. Ronald Reagan didn't end Communism, American culture did, Rock & Roll did.

The Velvet Revolution in Czechoslovakia began in part when copies of 'The Velvet Underground and Nico' were smuggled in and a local band, The Plastic People of the Universes, started playing covers of songs from that album like 'Heroin'. They were arrested by the authorities because they didn't have an official license to play approved Soviet music. This was outrageous to many people including Vaclav Haval who became President of Czechoslovakia in 1989 after a long jail stint and led the country towards democracy and oversaw the peaceful splitting of the Czech Republican and Slovakia. He said, "a government that shuts down rock music like this is a government that does not deserve to be in power" and mirrored these words in the Charter 77 which the government called "an anti-state, anti-socialist, and demagogic, abusive piece of writing" and its signatories "traitors and renegades". It was deemed a political crime to spread the text of this document. But despite this Charter 77 became a movement than helped free Czechoslovakia and the Eastern Bloc and inspired similar movement in other parts of the world including the Arab world today.

Now if we could just get the Arab world to appreciate the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit edition as much, then the Taliban would be a thing of the past.

PurpleJedi said:

DarlingDiana said:

Interesting that your single out Country Music and not Rock & Roll or any of the American music the rest of the world gobbles up and imitates (including country by the way). Cultural exports isn't something to laugh at. The rest of the world goes nuts for American music, American television, American movies and that's arguably of higher importance than anything else. Ronald Reagan didn't end Communism, American culture did, Rock & Roll did.

The Velvet Revolution in Czechoslovakia began in part when copies of 'The Velvet Underground and Nico' were smuggled in and a local band, The Plastic People of the Universes, started playing covers of songs from that album like 'Heroin'. They were arrested by the authorities because they didn't have an official license to play approved Soviet music. This was outrageous to many people including Vaclav Haval who became President of Czechoslovakia in 1989 after a long jail stint and led the country towards democracy and oversaw the peaceful splitting of the Czech Republican and Slovakia. He said, "a government that shuts down rock music like this is a government that does not deserve to be in power" and mirrored these words in the Charter 77 which the government called "an anti-state, anti-socialist, and demagogic, abusive piece of writing" and its signatories "traitors and renegades". It was deemed a political crime to spread the text of this document. But despite this Charter 77 became a movement than helped free Czechoslovakia and the Eastern Bloc and inspired similar movement in other parts of the world including the Arab world today.

Now if we could just get the Arab world to appreciate the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit edition as much, then the Taliban would be a thing of the past.

I very much agree. The Arab world is sexually repressed. The reason women are required to cover up so much is because muslim men think any bit of skin will turn them on and they wont be able to hold back their sexual urges. In Iran a woman can be jailed overnight for showing too much ankle because apparently that turns men on. We shouldn't be dropping drones on these people we should be dropping playboys.

DarlingDiana said:

PurpleJedi said:

Now if we could just get the Arab world to appreciate the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit edition as much, then the Taliban would be a thing of the past.

I very much agree. The Arab world is sexually repressed. The reason women are required to cover up so much is because muslim men think any bit of skin will turn them on and they wont be able to hold back their sexual urges. In Iran a woman can be jailed overnight for showing too much ankle because apparently that turns men on. We shouldn't be dropping drones on these people we should be dropping playboys.

The major problem of US is its past arrogance towards other "lesser" countries. Not the "freedom", "wealth", political or justice system etc. Basically US is just a country among the others, not anything less or more. In that sense, I can understand the hatred in those countries, which have suffered injustice because of US direct actions or their support for anti-democratic and suppres regimes.

Luckily arrogance hasn't been part of Obama's foreign policy as it used to be with Mr. Bush and his regime. However, the empire days are now over and Bush and some of his predecessors could be thanked for that. Now the earth has more centers than ever before. There are China, US, EU, Russia, India etc.

Personally, I hope US will get itself to balance after the bankcrupsy of Bush regime, because the world still needs reasonable strong and co-operative US. Conversational US is also better for itself than warlike and greedy empire, which is ruled by corporations and oligarchies. Americans are optimistic, hard-working, creative and flexible people who deservers the foreign and domestic policy, which helps common citizens, as well.

IMO, at this point this "tax benefits for the rich"- policy has already shown its destructiveness for US economy. Hopefully the Republicans will realize that before they'll ruin US completely and start an another worldwide depression.

usa usa usa usa usa usa usa..........When eye here that chant....

Vendetta1 said:

Welcome to P&R Pasi.

When I found out you're here, I needed to go back to my old bad habits and post something on this forum, as well

Shanti0608 said:

SquirrelMeat said:

Its exactly answers like that which make the US unpopular. Its nothing to do with envy, its the hatred of the greed and arrogance of a large percentage of the population.

To many places in the world, America is like a cancer, spreading is unhealthly ways and greed culture everywhere it can in the name of economic growth.

To many Americas moral compass is broken in the name of money, ownership and beating someone else.

Your teen culture seems to me nothing more than telling boys to act like war mongerers and gangstas and girls to act like mall brats and beauty queens, and the power of the US TV channels around the world mean to many other cultures are being influenced by it.

Unfortunately, too many Americans are dumb to the outside world and the actions of a greedy minority of US business and congress men to see or care whats happening. As long as they get artifcially cheap gas and as much junk food as they want they are happy.

I find the arrogance quite amusing (as a Englishman, who are often accused of arrogance themselves) that so many Americans think that the so much of the world is envious, even when the countries the comments are coming from have a much higher standard of living and social care.

I cannot change the negative views that I hear about the US, all I can do is try to be open minded myself and not judge other countries until I have actually spent time there. Even then I try not to judge because I know that all countries have good and bad in them.

Don't even get me started on the material possessions comments. I know a fair few Europeans that own expensive things and that also like their junk food.

If other countries don't like American then they should stop immitating them and wanting the same things that Americans have.

I just think some times it is too easy to blame the US for everything.

I am disturbed by the hatred some days. It spreads like a disease.

Fair enough. So where does the bitterness come from? I know a few English people who would like to move to the US, but there is something very similar about those that I see, they tend (not all) to be quite materialistic themselves. They think posh and becks are "classy" and they love white suburban rap.

I have lived in and traveled to 47 of the US States, problably more than most Americans, and there is two things that seems universal there. Firstly is the general poor education outside of the hubs. Secondly, its a patriotism that has gone too far and spilled over into blatant arrogance.

Too much of the population think the US is great because of the people. That they are somehow better than others. The US grew into the powerhouse that it is because of a particular set of circumstances. It had the chance to take established European invention, and apply it in a land with huge natural resourses, plent of space all the while protected by 2000 miles of water from the biggest threat. Essentially, it was like a European reboot. Take all the good bits and move it to a resource heaven, away from wars and disputes.

And they did a great job. But now, the corporate side has too much control and is spreading the "American Way" with a huge war chest of finance, built up by those set of circumstances. Other countries aren't immitating (with the exception of Japan). Its more a case of having the US culture forced upon them by the US corporate need to expand.

The airwaves are controlled by US media, the cinema too, and the US are buying up land and companies so fast abroad that they are transforming towns into sad American clones.

Sure, people shouldn't use them, but when they have the sheer marketing power that the US companies have, then smaller countries can't stop the rot. US companies in general are to the world what Walmart was to US groceries. Everyone says they are no good for us in the long term, but everyone keeps using them because they have such control.

America was and still is a great country, but I think its lost is moral compass its starting to piss the world off. Why do American companies have to go abroad? Whats wrong with their own shores? And if its about growth, where does it stop? With the wiping out of all other cultures in the name of the big mac?

When is enough?

Do you really think the world is jealous? I was sitting in a pub here in Cambridge, England the other day and there was a bunch of European and US students studying at Cambridge University. They were all a couple of pints wiser and openly debating world politics and business. These were clever kids. But I was shocked how blinked the US guys view was. They actually seemed to have lost the abilty to view things on a moral level in judging success. It was only stats, share, targets and bank balances. US = Good. China = Bad. They were will the Ferengi of the pub.

I think a large percentage of Americans have lost the abilty to view success in non financial terms and that they are so far gone that they don't believe people that do.

Personally, I envy countries like Denmark, with a much high standard of living than the US or England. Better well being, use of technology and schools, and much better avoidance of commercialism is childrens upbring. The US, and now to some extent Britain, have let the commercialism drive the moral agenda. Which is a step too far in my eyes.

But every superpower eventually collapses because of disillusionment. Egyptian, Roman, British Empire. The US is next.

If they can sort the human right out, I think China will bring a far better balanced influence when they take over from the US in a few years.

Adorecream said:

IshmaelB said:

Electric cars have been successfully developed, but they were swapped down by the corporate Powers That (shouldn't) Be as their existence would cut into corporate profits.

Money = Power & Power = Money.

Exactly the corporations and powers that be, have decided that gas guzzling tanks are more profit in the long term. Electric cars are too marginal for them (Cheap construction, lack of power - most need recharging after a few hours driving etc)

I found out about this gem at the Chicago Science and Industry Museum a few days ago. The electric car is nothing new, to my surprise. Again, GM was instrumental in its demise.

http://www.milburn.us/

[Edited 8/2/11 11:53am]

SquirrelMeat said:

Shanti0608 said:

I cannot change the negative views that I hear about the US, all I can do is try to be open minded myself and not judge other countries until I have actually spent time there. Even then I try not to judge because I know that all countries have good and bad in them.

Don't even get me started on the material possessions comments. I know a fair few Europeans that own expensive things and that also like their junk food.

If other countries don't like American then they should stop immitating them and wanting the same things that Americans have.

I just think some times it is too easy to blame the US for everything.

I am disturbed by the hatred some days. It spreads like a disease.

Fair enough. So where does the bitterness come from? I know a few English people who would like to move to the US, but there is something very similar about those that I see, they tend (not all) to be quite materialistic themselves. They think posh and becks are "classy" and they love white suburban rap.

I have lived in and traveled to 47 of the US States, problably more than most Americans, and there is two things that seems universal there. Firstly is the general poor education outside of the hubs. Secondly, its a patriotism that has gone too far and spilled over into blatant arrogance.

Too much of the population think the US is great because of the people. That they are somehow better than others. The US grew into the powerhouse that it is because of a particular set of circumstances. It had the chance to take established European invention, and apply it in a land with huge natural resourses, plent of space all the while protected by 2000 miles of water from the biggest threat. Essentially, it was like a European reboot. Take all the good bits and move it to a resource heaven, away from wars and disputes.

And they did a great job. But now, the corporate side has too much control and is spreading the "American Way" with a huge war chest of finance, built up by those set of circumstances. Other countries aren't immitating (with the exception of Japan). Its more a case of having the US culture forced upon them by the US corporate need to expand.

The airwaves are controlled by US media, the cinema too, and the US are buying up land and companies so fast abroad that they are transforming towns into sad American clones.

Sure, people shouldn't use them, but when they have the sheer marketing power that the US companies have, then smaller countries can't stop the rot. US companies in general are to the world what Walmart was to US groceries. Everyone says they are no good for us in the long term, but everyone keeps using them because they have such control.

America was and still is a great country, but I think its lost is moral compass its starting to piss the world off. Why do American companies have to go abroad? Whats wrong with their own shores? And if its about growth, where does it stop? With the wiping out of all other cultures in the name of the big mac?

When is enough?

Do you really think the world is jealous? I was sitting in a pub here in Cambridge, England the other day and there was a bunch of European and US students studying at Cambridge University. They were all a couple of pints wiser and openly debating world politics and business. These were clever kids. But I was shocked how blinked the US guys view was. They actually seemed to have lost the abilty to view things on a moral level in judging success. It was only stats, share, targets and bank balances. US = Good. China = Bad. They were will the Ferengi of the pub.

I think a large percentage of Americans have lost the abilty to view success in non financial terms and that they are so far gone that they don't believe people that do.

Personally, I envy countries like Denmark, with a much high standard of living than the US or England. Better well being, use of technology and schools, and much better avoidance of commercialism is childrens upbring. The US, and now to some extent Britain, have let the commercialism drive the moral agenda. Which is a step too far in my eyes.

But every superpower eventually collapses because of disillusionment. Egyptian, Roman, British Empire. The US is next.

If they can sort the human right out, I think China will bring a far better balanced influence when they take over from the US in a few years.

You should peep Chinese history. They will never "sort the human right out" to Western moral satisfaction. Have you noticed China has no qualms about intimidating its neighbors in the East China Sea and South China Sea. China has no problem trading with Iran, Zimbabwe, Myanmar, North Korea. Human rights in other countries are not their concern. They've had great success in locking up resource sources in Africa. They care nothing about Iran's support for Hamas and Hizbullah, they are just buying oil the West won't.

SquirrelMeat said:

Shanti0608 said:

I cannot change the negative views that I hear about the US, all I can do is try to be open minded myself and not judge other countries until I have actually spent time there. Even then I try not to judge because I know that all countries have good and bad in them.

Don't even get me started on the material possessions comments. I know a fair few Europeans that own expensive things and that also like their junk food.

If other countries don't like American then they should stop immitating them and wanting the same things that Americans have.

I just think some times it is too easy to blame the US for everything.

I am disturbed by the hatred some days. It spreads like a disease.

Fair enough. So where does the bitterness come from? I know a few English people who would like to move to the US, but there is something very similar about those that I see, they tend (not all) to be quite materialistic themselves. They think posh and becks are "classy" and they love white suburban rap.

I have lived in and traveled to 47 of the US States, problably more than most Americans, and there is two things that seems universal there. Firstly is the general poor education outside of the hubs. Secondly, its a patriotism that has gone too far and spilled over into blatant arrogance.

Too much of the population think the US is great because of the people. That they are somehow better than others. The US grew into the powerhouse that it is because of a particular set of circumstances. It had the chance to take established European invention, and apply it in a land with huge natural resourses, plent of space all the while protected by 2000 miles of water from the biggest threat. Essentially, it was like a European reboot. Take all the good bits and move it to a resource heaven, away from wars and disputes.

And they did a great job. But now, the corporate side has too much control and is spreading the "American Way" with a huge war chest of finance, built up by those set of circumstances. Other countries aren't immitating (with the exception of Japan). Its more a case of having the US culture forced upon them by the US corporate need to expand.

The airwaves are controlled by US media, the cinema too, and the US are buying up land and companies so fast abroad that they are transforming towns into sad American clones.

Sure, people shouldn't use them, but when they have the sheer marketing power that the US companies have, then smaller countries can't stop the rot. US companies in general are to the world what Walmart was to US groceries. Everyone says they are no good for us in the long term, but everyone keeps using them because they have such control.

America was and still is a great country, but I think its lost is moral compass its starting to piss the world off. Why do American companies have to go abroad? Whats wrong with their own shores? And if its about growth, where does it stop? With the wiping out of all other cultures in the name of the big mac?

When is enough?

Do you really think the world is jealous? I was sitting in a pub here in Cambridge, England the other day and there was a bunch of European and US students studying at Cambridge University. They were all a couple of pints wiser and openly debating world politics and business. These were clever kids. But I was shocked how blinked the US guys view was. They actually seemed to have lost the abilty to view things on a moral level in judging success. It was only stats, share, targets and bank balances. US = Good. China = Bad. They were will the Ferengi of the pub.

I think a large percentage of Americans have lost the abilty to view success in non financial terms and that they are so far gone that they don't believe people that do.

Personally, I envy countries like Denmark, with a much high standard of living than the US or England. Better well being, use of technology and schools, and much better avoidance of commercialism is childrens upbring. The US, and now to some extent Britain, have let the commercialism drive the moral agenda. Which is a step too far in my eyes.

But every superpower eventually collapses because of disillusionment. Egyptian, Roman, British Empire. The US is next.

If they can sort the human right out, I think China will bring a far better balanced influence when they take over from the US in a few years.

I didn't say that it is jealousy that causes the hatred, I think it is a combination of things. I was just giving my perspective from being American living in a foreign country. I don't buy the notion that we destroy other countries because they now have Mc Donald's and other American things. I compare it to blaming Mc Donald's for making someone fat. Humans need to take responsibility for their actions. If no one went to Mc Donald's then they would not exist.

I think the US crams their version of the Christian religion down other countries throats and that right there might cause much more hatred than Mc Donalds.