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Thread started 06/01/11 11:50am

NoVideo

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Are there really Angels? Or are they just in our minds.

It all comes out in the wash... in time.

* * *

So as some of you know, i'm a firm agnostic. I view all religions the same - as mankind's attempt to fill in the blanks of knowledge that is unknowable.

I was raised a Catholic, but by the time high school rolled around, I was pretty much in the agnostic camp. Not atheist - - I don't disbelieve in a higher power. I just don't pretend to know the truth, and I don't think we as humans have the capacity to know the truth.

On Monday, probably the scariest thing in my life happened. My husband (we've been together for over 10 years, married for 2) was walking down the stairwell of our apartment complex when an entire section of the stairwell collapsed under him. He fell approximately 18 feet to the concrete landing below. I heard the "thump" and then heard him screaming my name. I called 911 and the ambulance arrived, and took him away to the hospital.

He was incredibly, incredibly fortunate. No broken bones, some abrasions and bruising. He has taken the last 2 days off work, staying home and relaxing. He has a follow-up appointment with a physician tomorrow to check him over and make sure there aren't any injuries that weren't initially apparent. But it looks like he dodged any major lasting damage.

Obviously the thoughts of what "could have been" are hard to stomach. Just imagining how it could have been worse - not only for him, but for others. What if it had been an elderly person, or a family with children on that stairwell section when it collapsed? What if someone had been underneath? There are so many ways in which it could have been so much worse.

Now I get to the "Politics & Religion" part. I still have dialogues with "God" in my head from time to time, and Monday was one of those moments. I told my husband that he must have had an Angel watching out for him. Intellectually I don't really believe that. Nor do I believe that a "God" can hear me. But for some reason, in moments of stress or panic or even quiet moments, I will talk to "God". I think it's akin to an imaginary friend... it's along the lines of "Ok, God, I know I don't believe in you, but if you're up there could you..." so and so.

Anyway, the point to this - -- - we have other agnostics and some atheists on this board. Even though you don't believe in God intellectually, do you still have an internal dialogue sometimes with "God" or have moments when you feel, however fleeting, some spirituality touching you? Even if it fades later, when you are calm, or reflecting over something.

I mean, why thank God for preventing him from being seriously injured... why not ask God why nobody bothered to inspect the stairwell, and it was allowed to collapse in the first place? After all, accidents happen every day that are fatal. People die suddenly all the time, and no prayers help them before, during, or after.

But there is something in the human psyche - - it is so ingrained in us, whether through our childhood stories of religion and God as we are brought up, or perhaps something deeper -- that compels us sometimes to look up in the sky and imagine that there might indeed be someone listening.

Any thoughts on this?

[Edited 6/1/11 11:58am]

* * *
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Reply #1 posted 06/01/11 12:05pm

baroque

no. yes.

[Edited 6/1/11 12:06pm]

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Reply #2 posted 06/01/11 11:25pm

toejam

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I think the reason why humans "look to the skies" as you put it is an unintentional bi-product of several behavioural traits favoured through millions of years of Natural Selection:

First of all, it is advantageous in our early years to put our trust in and 'copy' the behaviours of our elders and other authority figures. Children up until the age of about 5 pretty much take anything their parents/authority figures tell them as the truth, regardless how ridiculous it might seem as you get older. As we aren't born with implanted memories, it's advantageous to trust those who have already 'survived' longer than you. Those children that 'copy' their parents' behaviour the best will have a better chance at survival - even if the behaviour in question doesn't actually benefit survival in the first place. The young brain can't make that distinction - it just 'copies' as best it can. This is why kids fall for Santa and the Easter Bunny so easily - they just don't know any better.

Second of all, we have big brains. We can recognise patterns and understand abstract concepts better than all other living animals. We almost can't turn this 'pattern recognition' system off - so when we see the vastness of the world around us, the patterns within it etc., we can't help but to look for the origin of this 'pattern'.

Thirdly, Natural Selection has also "blessed us" (pun intended) with an amazing ability to imagine the foreign. It's a great survival trait because it allows us to predict and see ourselves through the eyes of others. As hunger-gatherers this is a great trait to have.

And finally, fear of death. Clearly having a fear of death is a survival advantage. A conscious mind that considers life "good" and death "bad" will thus be encouraged to live and procreate etc.

So, in my opinion, it's the combination of this fear of death, our amazing ability to imagine, our ability to ask the big questions, our tendency to look for "authority figures", and our ultimate gullibility. Add that all together and what do you have: God - the ultimate imaginary friend! He's there to comfort us of our fears, explain the things we don't understand and give us guidance. Just a shame he's just a delusion of a mammalian brain.

Thankfully science and technology have come so far that we now know more about ourselves and how our brains works than in any other time period. All over the world people are starting to come to the realisation that 'God' is simply imaginary. And this is a good thing IMO. We are starting to see our true place in the universe - We're so insignificant it seems that it only makes our awareness of it only more important and beautiful:

"We are the universe made conscious." - Carl Sagan.

"I know of no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too desirous of evidence in support of their core beliefs." - Sam Harris

(And finally to clarify, I'm not saying there is definitively no God, only that as there is no evidence for one yet, all claims for God can be considered, yet dismissed just as quickly)

[Edited 6/1/11 23:31pm]

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Reply #3 posted 06/02/11 6:13am

NoVideo

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toejam said:

I think the reason why humans "look to the skies" as you put it is an unintentional bi-product of several behavioural traits favoured through millions of years of Natural Selection:

First of all, it is advantageous in our early years to put our trust in and 'copy' the behaviours of our elders and other authority figures. Children up until the age of about 5 pretty much take anything their parents/authority figures tell them as the truth, regardless how ridiculous it might seem as you get older. As we aren't born with implanted memories, it's advantageous to trust those who have already 'survived' longer than you. Those children that 'copy' their parents' behaviour the best will have a better chance at survival - even if the behaviour in question doesn't actually benefit survival in the first place. The young brain can't make that distinction - it just 'copies' as best it can. This is why kids fall for Santa and the Easter Bunny so easily - they just don't know any better.

Second of all, we have big brains. We can recognise patterns and understand abstract concepts better than all other living animals. We almost can't turn this 'pattern recognition' system off - so when we see the vastness of the world around us, the patterns within it etc., we can't help but to look for the origin of this 'pattern'.

Thirdly, Natural Selection has also "blessed us" (pun intended) with an amazing ability to imagine the foreign. It's a great survival trait because it allows us to predict and see ourselves through the eyes of others. As hunger-gatherers this is a great trait to have.

And finally, fear of death. Clearly having a fear of death is a survival advantage. A conscious mind that considers life "good" and death "bad" will thus be encouraged to live and procreate etc.

So, in my opinion, it's the combination of this fear of death, our amazing ability to imagine, our ability to ask the big questions, our tendency to look for "authority figures", and our ultimate gullibility. Add that all together and what do you have: God - the ultimate imaginary friend! He's there to comfort us of our fears, explain the things we don't understand and give us guidance. Just a shame he's just a delusion of a mammalian brain.

Thankfully science and technology have come so far that we now know more about ourselves and how our brains works than in any other time period. All over the world people are starting to come to the realisation that 'God' is simply imaginary. And this is a good thing IMO. We are starting to see our true place in the universe - We're so insignificant it seems that it only makes our awareness of it only more important and beautiful:

"We are the universe made conscious." - Carl Sagan.

"I know of no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too desirous of evidence in support of their core beliefs." - Sam Harris

(And finally to clarify, I'm not saying there is definitively no God, only that as there is no evidence for one yet, all claims for God can be considered, yet dismissed just as quickly)

[Edited 6/1/11 23:31pm]

Very thoughtful response, I agree completely

* * *
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Reply #4 posted 06/02/11 7:12am

armpit

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Believing in God works for me.

If you guys don't believe, that's fine.

But if it gives others comfort to believe and it doesn't hurt anybody when they do - does it really even matter what the truth is?

"I don't think you'd do well in captivity." - random person's comment to me the other day
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Reply #5 posted 06/02/11 7:27am

NoVideo

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armpit said:

it doesn't hurt anybody when they do

If only that were the case, then yes.

* * *
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Reply #6 posted 06/02/11 8:17am

abigail05

I think this stairwell collapsing near-accident was a wake-up call. Your instinct was to call out to God in a crisis. Why overthink it? Why not just let God into your life, and stop trying to intellectualize it all?

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Reply #7 posted 06/02/11 8:29am

NoVideo

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abigail05 said:

I think this stairwell collapsing near-accident was a wake-up call. Your instinct was to call out to God in a crisis. Why overthink it? Why not just let God into your life, and stop trying to intellectualize it all?

Um, no... that's not the point.

* * *
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Reply #8 posted 06/02/11 8:50am

CarrieMpls

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Atheist here. And I don’t pray or have conversations with “god”.

I was raised without any religious upbringing. While my parents consider themselves Lutheran and are certainly believers we didn’t regularly attend services and I never saw or heard them pray. Nor anyone else I was close to.

I have an inner dialogue (as I assume all of us do) that runs nearly constantly but never does it involve a conversation with an imaginary friend or any sort of god. In that sense, I guess it’s more of an inner monologue. lol In times of crisis my thoughts certainly reflect the situation, but I don’t ask god to save anyone or thank god for helping anyone or look to the sky on instinct.

I will say that I have regular experiences that I consider “spiritual” but none have anything to do with a belief in god or the supernatural. To me spirituality is more of an emotion, a feeling of connectedness to things bigger than myself like the natural world, humanity, a sense of awe, etc. They can occur on a walk by myself through the woods or in the middle of a crowd of people at a music event. I can’t recall ever having felt spiritual through grief or crisis, though. hmmm

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Reply #9 posted 06/02/11 5:14pm

IanRG

NoVideo said:

abigail05 said:

I think this stairwell collapsing near-accident was a wake-up call. Your instinct was to call out to God in a crisis. Why overthink it? Why not just let God into your life, and stop trying to intellectualize it all?

Um, no... that's not the point.

I agree.

If you feel that you should just accept it and not intectualise it then your resultant belief will have no foundation. This applies as much to whatever conclusion you reach.

Thank you for an excellent question. And I am thankful that you and your husband are both fine.

This question gets to the heart of the matter - the difference between empiricism and rationalism. So many of the atheists here focus on empiricism when they say no empirical proof therefore no God. However, by doing this they are ignoring part of the available data - spiritual experiences such as yours. Now before I lose you, I am not saying this is proof of God or that rationalism leads to belief in God - just that empiricalism does not.

You experience cannot be explained by empiricism. It can, however, be rationalised by either the responses above or by a more metaphysical explanation.

Your mind and your brain are two different things. the latter is an arrangements of chemicals and electricity etc. The former is you - your conciousness, your "youness", part of your Soul. This is purely conceptual - everything you think is conceptual whether or not it has an empirical provable basis or not. That screen you see in front of you - you dont see it. Your eyes, nerves and brain merely send and receive electrical impulses based on photons reaching the retina. Your mind perceives these and relates these to what you have learned and experienced over your life. The more remote what you are trying to perceive, the more it relies on concepts and ideas and less on your five senses. When we try to perceive what matter is we know empirically that the matter of the keyboard beneath our fingers is there. But when we look at the make up of that matter we conceptualise that it is made up of atoms that are mostly empty. Where they are not empty they are possibly made up of multidimensional bundles of energy that flit between universes. These concepts are just not provable empirically.

It is the same as to whether you were talking to yourself or to God. As to whether your husband was protected metaphysically or by chance or a mix of both. Any one who tells you that they know for sure that God had nothing to do with saving your husband or that God did it cannot prove this one way or another. I do believe that God answers our prayers including yours and I am thankful for it. Remember Jesus is referred to as the Word and God as "I am" - both concepts but, in my opinion and belief, none the less true than the concept "I think therefore I am". Excuse the grammar but God am because God thinks and he thinks about us including your pleas for your husband.

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Reply #10 posted 06/02/11 6:37pm

toejam

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IanRG said:

abigail05 said:

Why not just let God into your life, and stop trying to intellectualize it all?

If you feel that you should just accept it and not intectualise it then your resultant belief will have no foundation. This applies as much to whatever conclusion you reach.

Totally agree with this (we can agree on something, IanRG wink). This whole idea of submission to anything on faith alone is clearly a bad thing. One should always use intellectual thought (reason, logic, and the consideration of the evidence at hand) when determining the "truth" of something - particularly when it comes to matters so illusive and personal such as 'God' and the spiritual etc.

... any one who tells you [NoVideo] that they know for sure that God had nothing to do with saving your husband or that God did it cannot prove this one way or another.

And I agree on this point as well. I, and most other atheists, acknowledge that there is no way to disprove God. But I think my first post gives us some good reasons as to why he probably doesn't exist...

I do believe that God answers our prayers including yours and I am thankful for it. Remember Jesus is referred to as the Word and God as "I am" - both concepts but, in my opinion and belief, none the less true than the concept "I think therefore I am". Excuse the grammar but God am because God thinks and he thinks about us including your pleas for your husband.


And this is where we run into some problems... You can believe in God, Jesus and the power of prayer as much as you like - and maybe in your own little "multidimensional bundle" it is true. But for the establishment of fact on a collective level, evidence of such claims ARE required. The fact remains that there is no evidence for the existence of the God of the Bible, nor evidence for the miraculous miracles performed by his son (even his existence is, at best, sketchy), nor is there any evidence for the power of prayer.

Now, there are infinite other things that we also have no evidence for - a flying spaghetti monster, an orbiting tea-pot, Zeus, the Rainbow Serpent of Australian-Aboriginal dreamtime, or a dragon in my garage... to list but a few lol

So, the question is, how can you demonstrate to the rest of us that your claim of God is any more valid than any of these? Quoting scripture would seem as redundant as an Australian-Aboriginal trying to convince you of the Rainbow Serpent by retelling sections from the story, or a Muslim picking out Qu'ran quotes to qualify his story...

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #11 posted 06/02/11 6:45pm

NoVideo

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IanRG said:

NoVideo said:

Um, no... that's not the point.

I agree.

If you feel that you should just accept it and not intectualise it then your resultant belief will have no foundation. This applies as much to whatever conclusion you reach.

Thank you for an excellent question. And I am thankful that you and your husband are both fine.

This question gets to the heart of the matter - the difference between empiricism and rationalism. So many of the atheists here focus on empiricism when they say no empirical proof therefore no God. However, by doing this they are ignoring part of the available data - spiritual experiences such as yours. Now before I lose you, I am not saying this is proof of God or that rationalism leads to belief in God - just that empiricalism does not.

You experience cannot be explained by empiricism. It can, however, be rationalised by either the responses above or by a more metaphysical explanation.

Your mind and your brain are two different things. the latter is an arrangements of chemicals and electricity etc. The former is you - your conciousness, your "youness", part of your Soul. This is purely conceptual - everything you think is conceptual whether or not it has an empirical provable basis or not. That screen you see in front of you - you dont see it. Your eyes, nerves and brain merely send and receive electrical impulses based on photons reaching the retina. Your mind perceives these and relates these to what you have learned and experienced over your life. The more remote what you are trying to perceive, the more it relies on concepts and ideas and less on your five senses. When we try to perceive what matter is we know empirically that the matter of the keyboard beneath our fingers is there. But when we look at the make up of that matter we conceptualise that it is made up of atoms that are mostly empty. Where they are not empty they are possibly made up of multidimensional bundles of energy that flit between universes. These concepts are just not provable empirically.

It is the same as to whether you were talking to yourself or to God. As to whether your husband was protected metaphysically or by chance or a mix of both. Any one who tells you that they know for sure that God had nothing to do with saving your husband or that God did it cannot prove this one way or another. I do believe that God answers our prayers including yours and I am thankful for it. Remember Jesus is referred to as the Word and God as "I am" - both concepts but, in my opinion and belief, none the less true than the concept "I think therefore I am". Excuse the grammar but God am because God thinks and he thinks about us including your pleas for your husband.

Thank you for the thoughtful response, and also your well-wishes.

* * *
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Reply #12 posted 06/02/11 8:39pm

PenelopePaige

NoVideo said:

It all comes out in the wash... in time.

* * *

So as some of you know, i'm a firm agnostic. I view all religions the same - as mankind's attempt to fill in the blanks of knowledge that is unknowable.

I was raised a Catholic, but by the time high school rolled around, I was pretty much in the agnostic camp. Not atheist - - I don't disbelieve in a higher power. I just don't pretend to know the truth, and I don't think we as humans have the capacity to know the truth.

On Monday, probably the scariest thing in my life happened. My husband (we've been together for over 10 years, married for 2) was walking down the stairwell of our apartment complex when an entire section of the stairwell collapsed under him. He fell approximately 18 feet to the concrete landing below. I heard the "thump" and then heard him screaming my name. I called 911 and the ambulance arrived, and took him away to the hospital.

He was incredibly, incredibly fortunate. No broken bones, some abrasions and bruising. He has taken the last 2 days off work, staying home and relaxing. He has a follow-up appointment with a physician tomorrow to check him over and make sure there aren't any injuries that weren't initially apparent. But it looks like he dodged any major lasting damage.

Obviously the thoughts of what "could have been" are hard to stomach. Just imagining how it could have been worse - not only for him, but for others. What if it had been an elderly person, or a family with children on that stairwell section when it collapsed? What if someone had been underneath? There are so many ways in which it could have been so much worse.

Now I get to the "Politics & Religion" part. I still have dialogues with "God" in my head from time to time, and Monday was one of those moments. I told my husband that he must have had an Angel watching out for him. Intellectually I don't really believe that. Nor do I believe that a "God" can hear me. But for some reason, in moments of stress or panic or even quiet moments, I will talk to "God". I think it's akin to an imaginary friend... it's along the lines of "Ok, God, I know I don't believe in you, but if you're up there could you..." so and so.

Anyway, the point to this - -- - we have other agnostics and some atheists on this board. Even though you don't believe in God intellectually, do you still have an internal dialogue sometimes with "God" or have moments when you feel, however fleeting, some spirituality touching you? Even if it fades later, when you are calm, or reflecting over something.

I mean, why thank God for preventing him from being seriously injured... why not ask God why nobody bothered to inspect the stairwell, and it was allowed to collapse in the first place? After all, accidents happen every day that are fatal. People die suddenly all the time, and no prayers help them before, during, or after.

But there is something in the human psyche - - it is so ingrained in us, whether through our childhood stories of religion and God as we are brought up, or perhaps something deeper -- that compels us sometimes to look up in the sky and imagine that there might indeed be someone listening.

Any thoughts on this?

[Edited 6/1/11 11:58am]

I once had something terrible happen to my son and I was driving on my way to get to him; I had been praying hard. The entire way to get to him, as my husband drove, there were lights above our car, maybe 9 feet above us. First there were two, then three, then four, and finally five. They stayed over our car- looping one another- and I knew they were officially following us when the freeway split and they stayed above our car. They stayed above us, frantically looping one another , until we reached him and then they were gone and we never saw them again. I feel they were angels. But I have alot of guilt because I'm prone to say GD quiet a bit and curse and I don't know why angels would help me? And I know I'm no more worthy than anyone else and that people MUCH more worthy than I deserve angels over their car in a scary situation. so what I've come to believe is that they actually ARE there for everyone, they just can't see them. For some reason my husband and I did see them that night but I think they're there always, for everyone. smile

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Reply #13 posted 06/02/11 9:06pm

toejam

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PenelopePaige said:

I once had something terrible happen to my son and I was driving on my way to get to him; I had been praying hard. The entire way to get to him, as my husband drove, there were lights above our car, maybe 9 feet above us. First there were two, then three, then four, and finally five. They stayed over our car- looping one another- and I knew they were officially following us when the freeway split and they stayed above our car. They stayed above us, frantically looping one another , until we reached him and then they were gone and we never saw them again. I feel they were angels. But I have alot of guilt because I'm prone to say GD quiet a bit and curse and I don't know why angels would help me? And I know I'm no more worthy than anyone else and that people MUCH more worthy than I deserve angels over their car in a scary situation. so what I've come to believe is that they actually ARE there for everyone, they just can't see them. For some reason my husband and I did see them that night but I think they're there always, for everyone. smile


What makes you so sure that these "lights" were provided by the God of the Bible?

There are an infinite amount of other things it could have been. Do you have any evidence that it was indeed angels sent by Yahew to answer your prayers? Or do you just credit him with it because you prayed?

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #14 posted 06/03/11 5:57am

free2bfreeda

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Psalms 91:11-12

11. For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

12. They shall bear the up with their hands lest thy dash thy foot against a stone.

so it is written. eek

one day a child hugged the earth & whispered 2 her,"I wish people would realize every x a bomb is launched & hits ur surface, it's like a major injury 2 u." i know war hurts u. :" the earth rumbled softly n reply, then cried a massive storm(c)
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Reply #15 posted 06/03/11 6:38am

PenelopePaige

toejam said:

PenelopePaige said:

I once had something terrible happen to my son and I was driving on my way to get to him; I had been praying hard. The entire way to get to him, as my husband drove, there were lights above our car, maybe 9 feet above us. First there were two, then three, then four, and finally five. They stayed over our car- looping one another- and I knew they were officially following us when the freeway split and they stayed above our car. They stayed above us, frantically looping one another , until we reached him and then they were gone and we never saw them again. I feel they were angels. But I have alot of guilt because I'm prone to say GD quiet a bit and curse and I don't know why angels would help me? And I know I'm no more worthy than anyone else and that people MUCH more worthy than I deserve angels over their car in a scary situation. so what I've come to believe is that they actually ARE there for everyone, they just can't see them. For some reason my husband and I did see them that night but I think they're there always, for everyone. smile


What makes you so sure that these "lights" were provided by the God of the Bible?

There are an infinite amount of other things it could have been. Do you have any evidence that it was indeed angels sent by Yahew to answer your prayers? Or do you just credit him with it because you prayed?

Well, I don't very much think it was the devil! They had an intelligence about them- when we slowed down/ they slowed down/ when we stopped/ they hovered over our car. What else could they possibly be besides angels? It felt like a rescue mission. Which is what it was. What do you think they could of been? I see what your saying but I just can't imagine anything else they could have been. I had been praying harder than I ever had in my life that day.

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Reply #16 posted 06/03/11 9:21am

XxAxX

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in many religions and cultures around the world, angels/beings/guides/boddhisatvas/spirits/aliens play a part in assisting humans to achieve heaven/enlightenment/nirvana. so yes, i do beleive there is more to the world around us than we can see, with our eyes. meaning 'angels'

[Edited 6/3/11 9:21am]

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Reply #17 posted 06/03/11 10:23am

NoVideo

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XxAxX said:

in many religions and cultures around the world, angels/beings/guides/boddhisatvas/spirits/aliens play a part in assisting humans to achieve heaven/enlightenment/nirvana. so yes, i do beleive there is more to the world around us than we can see, with our eyes. meaning 'angels'

[Edited 6/3/11 9:21am]

If so, they are very selective on who they decide to help.

There is so much incredible pain, misery and tragedy - every day - all over the world.

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Reply #18 posted 06/06/11 7:47am

paisleypark4

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NoVideo said:

It all comes out in the wash... in time.

* * *

So as some of you know, i'm a firm agnostic. I view all religions the same - as mankind's attempt to fill in the blanks of knowledge that is unknowable.

I was raised a Catholic, but by the time high school rolled around, I was pretty much in the agnostic camp. Not atheist - - I don't disbelieve in a higher power. I just don't pretend to know the truth, and I don't think we as humans have the capacity to know the truth.

On Monday, probably the scariest thing in my life happened. My husband (we've been together for over 10 years, married for 2) was walking down the stairwell of our apartment complex when an entire section of the stairwell collapsed under him. He fell approximately 18 feet to the concrete landing below. I heard the "thump" and then heard him screaming my name. I called 911 and the ambulance arrived, and took him away to the hospital.

He was incredibly, incredibly fortunate. No broken bones, some abrasions and bruising. He has taken the last 2 days off work, staying home and relaxing. He has a follow-up appointment with a physician tomorrow to check him over and make sure there aren't any injuries that weren't initially apparent. But it looks like he dodged any major lasting damage.

Obviously the thoughts of what "could have been" are hard to stomach. Just imagining how it could have been worse - not only for him, but for others. What if it had been an elderly person, or a family with children on that stairwell section when it collapsed? What if someone had been underneath? There are so many ways in which it could have been so much worse.

Now I get to the "Politics & Religion" part. I still have dialogues with "God" in my head from time to time, and Monday was one of those moments. I told my husband that he must have had an Angel watching out for him. Intellectually I don't really believe that. Nor do I believe that a "God" can hear me. But for some reason, in moments of stress or panic or even quiet moments, I will talk to "God". I think it's akin to an imaginary friend... it's along the lines of "Ok, God, I know I don't believe in you, but if you're up there could you..." so and so.

Anyway, the point to this - -- - we have other agnostics and some atheists on this board. Even though you don't believe in God intellectually, do you still have an internal dialogue sometimes with "God" or have moments when you feel, however fleeting, some spirituality touching you? Even if it fades later, when you are calm, or reflecting over something.

I mean, why thank God for preventing him from being seriously injured... why not ask God why nobody bothered to inspect the stairwell, and it was allowed to collapse in the first place? After all, accidents happen every day that are fatal. People die suddenly all the time, and no prayers help them before, during, or after.

But there is something in the human psyche - - it is so ingrained in us, whether through our childhood stories of religion and God as we are brought up, or perhaps something deeper -- that compels us sometimes to look up in the sky and imagine that there might indeed be someone listening.

Any thoughts on this?

[Edited 6/1/11 11:58am]

It is because man is told that we are 'seperate' from god and that we are not part of the element that is of their version of god..whatever religion you choose. However we are all connected to everything that is no matter what...

It is beneficial that an angel may have been watching over your husband in that his life and others were spared in that situation...in moments of panic we go to the SOURCE..which is what we are belonged to....the 'god' source which we all obtain at every moment weather spiritually or physically...

People forget our Higher Self always know everything that will happen with our physical human selves from birth to death..and will always watch out until we are back to it's source again. We are spiritual beings on a human learning experience.

I am glad everything happened the way it did! nod

Download all the shit hop that you can for your kids, neices, nephews, and their friends also. That will prevent them from going out and buying it and will prevent some shit hop sales. Every little bit helps - Andy
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemus
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Reply #19 posted 06/11/11 7:46am

PURplEMaPLeSyr
up

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NoVideo said:

It all comes out in the wash... in time.

* * *

So as some of you know, i'm a firm agnostic. I view all religions the same - as mankind's attempt to fill in the blanks of knowledge that is unknowable.

I was raised a Catholic, but by the time high school rolled around, I was pretty much in the agnostic camp. Not atheist - - I don't disbelieve in a higher power. I just don't pretend to know the truth, and I don't think we as humans have the capacity to know the truth.

On Monday, probably the scariest thing in my life happened. My husband (we've been together for over 10 years, married for 2) was walking down the stairwell of our apartment complex when an entire section of the stairwell collapsed under him. He fell approximately 18 feet to the concrete landing below. I heard the "thump" and then heard him screaming my name. I called 911 and the ambulance arrived, and took him away to the hospital.

He was incredibly, incredibly fortunate. No broken bones, some abrasions and bruising. He has taken the last 2 days off work, staying home and relaxing. He has a follow-up appointment with a physician tomorrow to check him over and make sure there aren't any injuries that weren't initially apparent. But it looks like he dodged any major lasting damage.

Obviously the thoughts of what "could have been" are hard to stomach. Just imagining how it could have been worse - not only for him, but for others. What if it had been an elderly person, or a family with children on that stairwell section when it collapsed? What if someone had been underneath? There are so many ways in which it could have been so much worse.

Now I get to the "Politics & Religion" part. I still have dialogues with "God" in my head from time to time, and Monday was one of those moments. I told my husband that he must have had an Angel watching out for him. Intellectually I don't really believe that. Nor do I believe that a "God" can hear me. But for some reason, in moments of stress or panic or even quiet moments, I will talk to "God". I think it's akin to an imaginary friend... it's along the lines of "Ok, God, I know I don't believe in you, but if you're up there could you..." so and so.

Anyway, the point to this - -- - we have other agnostics and some atheists on this board. Even though you don't believe in God intellectually, do you still have an internal dialogue sometimes with "God" or have moments when you feel, however fleeting, some spirituality touching you? Even if it fades later, when you are calm, or reflecting over something.

I mean, why thank God for preventing him from being seriously injured... why not ask God why nobody bothered to inspect the stairwell, and it was allowed to collapse in the first place? After all, accidents happen every day that are fatal. People die suddenly all the time, and no prayers help them before, during, or after.

But there is something in the human psyche - - it is so ingrained in us, whether through our childhood stories of religion and God as we are brought up, or perhaps something deeper -- that compels us sometimes to look up in the sky and imagine that there might indeed be someone listening.

Any thoughts on this?

[Edited 6/1/11 11:58am]

Hey i'm glad your husband is okay! i actually signed on today intending to start a thread with the very same title as yours, but slightly different questions, more about the nature of angels. So it was cool to see this. so i'm going to start a thread but won't use your title wink btw that line is one of my favorite soundbytes from all of prince's recorded works!

i was raised agnostic but am not so much anymore, but when i was, i did have those spiritual moments. have you read the divine matrix? it explains some of the interconnectedness of things without religious basis.

flowing through the veins of the tree of life...purplemaplesyrup
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Reply #20 posted 06/11/11 12:58pm

virginie74

I often "imagine" dancing with angels. They look like, in my dreams, like auras.

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Reply #21 posted 06/13/11 3:35am

itsnotallover

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Glad to see your Husband is ok after such a scary experience.

Not sure how to answer your question, I don't believe in the whole God / Afterlife / Angel thing, or at least, not in the way we are taught through Religion. Though I have had many, many unexplained experiences. Which leads me to question the possibilities of what really is "out there". Perhaps, these things happen from our own subconscious? After all, we are still learning the power of teh Human Mind. Who knows.

Humans are just animals, we are Mammals, a part of the Animal Kingdom. Animals are known to sense danger, perhaps we can do the same and then interpret that into our own way of thinking?

I did post on another thread on this forum about one such experience, whilst I was in my Car I was pulling out of a Blind spot after walking my Friends Dogs on a field, I heard a voice saying stop as I started to pull away, Thinking it was my Friend who said it I stopped the Car, If I had not have stopped my Car I would have been hit side on by a speeding Car which shot past the front of us after a split second, This would have either Killed us outright, due to his speed, or we would have been very, very seriously injured.

After posting this, someone claimed it was an Angel watching over me, I don't know to be honest. Though, looking back at my life, maybe there is something more that we can not see.

Or as I said earlier, maybe we just have powerful subconsciousness.

Don't hate me......I am too busy hating myself.......
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Reply #22 posted 06/14/11 7:35am

thisisit

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i think whatever we believe, is true. reality conforms to the quality of our thoughts. the labels we assign to the things we observe and experience don't alter the original pulse.

"It's time for you to go to the wire."
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Reply #23 posted 06/14/11 1:48pm

toejam

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thisisit said:

i think whatever we believe, is true. reality conforms to the quality of our thoughts. the labels we assign to the things we observe and experience don't alter the original pulse.


I used to think like that. But I've come to realise it's bollocks. Please explain what you mean by "original pulse"... Sounds like a quasi-scientific-religioso cliche like "God is Love" or "universal vibration" that people throw out there to justify warm and fuzzies inside.

If whatever you believe is true, then simply "believe" you can live without ever eating... I dare you! Test your faith! ... Or perhaps something more simple to begin with - "believe" a random person will come up to you today and give you a blue cupcake... The more you test your "belief" ability, the more you'll find it's bollocks...

Trust reason, logic and evidence over "belief" any day. You'll find reality more often than not will exceed your own imagination.

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #24 posted 06/14/11 7:00pm

thisisit

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toejam said:

thisisit said:

i think whatever we believe, is true. reality conforms to the quality of our thoughts. the labels we assign to the things we observe and experience don't alter the original pulse.


I used to think like that. But I've come to realise it's bollocks. Please explain what you mean by "original pulse"... Sounds like a quasi-scientific-religioso cliche like "God is Love" or "universal vibration" that people throw out there to justify warm and fuzzies inside.

If whatever you believe is true, then simply "believe" you can live without ever eating... I dare you! Test your faith! ... Or perhaps something more simple to begin with - "believe" a random person will come up to you today and give you a blue cupcake... The more you test your "belief" ability, the more you'll find it's bollocks...

Trust reason, logic and evidence over "belief" any day. You'll find reality more often than not will exceed your own imagination.

i think it's great that you have such strong conviction in your beliefs. in my opinion, what we believe is less important than how strongly we believe. biggrin

"It's time for you to go to the wire."
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Reply #25 posted 06/14/11 11:00pm

toejam

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thisisit said:

toejam said:


I used to think like that. But I've come to realise it's bollocks. Please explain what you mean by "original pulse"... Sounds like a quasi-scientific-religioso cliche like "God is Love" or "universal vibration" that people throw out there to justify warm and fuzzies inside.

If whatever you believe is true, then simply "believe" you can live without ever eating... I dare you! Test your faith! ... Or perhaps something more simple to begin with - "believe" a random person will come up to you today and give you a blue cupcake... The more you test your "belief" ability, the more you'll find it's bollocks...

Trust reason, logic and evidence over "belief" any day. You'll find reality more often than not will exceed your own imagination.

i think it's great that you have such strong conviction in your beliefs. in my opinion, what we believe is less important than how strongly we believe. biggrin

Sounds like more fuzzy-wuzzy talk to me... It must be nice to wiggle your way out of actually defending your position by simply spewing more cliches that don't address any of the issues I raised...


So let's hear it... What exactly do you mean by "original pulse"?

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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