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URL: http://prince.org/msg/105/348422
Date printed: Sun 19th May 2013 1:14am PDT
| Author | Message |
What if everybody was atheist? ... Would it actually make human beings better?? Would the world actually be a better place? I'm not a believer, but I can understand some people NEED to believe in a god, life after death, to keep their life on track...
Still I think so much hatred, wars, intolerance have been brought by religions... Because, I think, at the end of the day, no matter how hard these 'religions of peace' pretend to be 'tolerant', each one of them wants to be THE ONLY religion for everybody... Well the idea kind of scares me... But What if nobody believed?? Everybody is somebody, but nobody wants to be themselves. |
Wouldn't it be lovely.
Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace... More lyrics: http://www.lyricsmode.com...non/#share |
it's an impossibility. Superstition is part of the human psyche - always has been, always will be. |
it would be lame. no imagination. many good stories--if not all-- have some elements of things which are out of our hands. call it fate, luck, or randomness or what have you. if no one believed in anything that they could not prove there would be no innovations no imagination. I would hate to live in a world were everyone was so close minded either way.
take harry potter, if not for a spark of the belief, that there could be something to real magic then it would not have been made. Even if you hate it many love it.
or ghost stories: if not for the belief that there is something after life then there would be no such stories.
Yes I am... Alive is got we've thing this |
If atheism became the prevalant mindset for all of humanity, there would be wars waged to determine who is more atheist than the next, or Inquisition-style persecutions of all the nasty intelligent-design holdouts.
Humans are vile creatures. By St. Boogar and all the saints at the backside door of Purgatory! |
I think the same problems associated with religion would manifest in some other way. |
we would get to live the move 'Equilibrium' Yes I am... Alive is got we've thing this |
Humans were cruel to one another before faith and we would be cruel to one another in the presecnce of faith. To blame religion/faith in a higher power for all of man's evils or even hint at it is in itself cruel and ignorant.
Somewhere right now there is a human doing something vile and wicked to another human and I'd bet my own life that this person is not thinking about religion or a creator while he/she is committing their vile act.
A better question would be - what if everyone were decent or compassionate. That's the world we all should want to live in. [Edited 12/8/10 10:56am] |
Hasn't anyone noticed the *problems* that have been escalating since someone clever decided to take the idea of GOD out of society and schools? Even back in the old days, when it seemed that everybody believed in GOD, there were people that didn't. But usually, you didn't dare say it. Why? Because there was a stigma attached to this type of thing. The idea of an all-powerful GOD was good in keeping order amongst the people. Morality found its roots in GOD's commandments. The sad thing is, children and family units are the ones suffering from this lack of divine guidance the most. So if everyone were an atheist, there would be no happiness and no peace in this world, immorality would run rampant, and guaranteed, no one would think this society was better...except for maybe criminals! Prince is GORGEOUS. I'm inspired. GOD is GREAT. Is there anything else to say? lol |
What utter BS. Really, where did you get all this? There would be no happiness and peace without religion? Imorality would be rampant? It is exactly this type of thought that serves as the best example for how religious indoctrination can erase sanity and critical thought from a human mind. Oh the utter arrogance that morality would not exist without religion. Where do you get all this from? What kind of church teaches this intolerance and hatred of those who don't subscribe to their religious teachings? There was morality before the commendments. Religion isn't needed for morality. And thank you, but my children are not suffering. They are very happy, very intelligent and they actually don't refuse knowledge that contradict certain religious myths. If they seek a relationship with any God at some point in their lives, then good for them. At least it will be their own decision to make. The way I see it, you'd prefer to indoctrinate children at an early age. |
My thesis - and I mean my own personal opinion (I'm not gonna present my opinon as fact as others on this thread have done) - is that the world today would be pretty similar, if everybody was atheist today. Look at Central and Norther Europe, where religion plays a much less significant role today than over here in the States. Morality still exists, people are still happy. Europe is not sucumbing to the decreasing will of people to believe in a divine being. I don't think it would be a better world without religion, and I don't think the world will be off worse with religion. Ignorance, hatred, intolerance are widespread among both religious and non-religious people, and so are kindness, a good sense of morality and love and respect for others. Bottom line, it doesn't matter either way. |
all i can say to this is... wow. |
She's on some proper fire and brimstone shit. |
I think there would be a lot more suicides. Some people only live for salvation and everlasting life. Rejoining with lost loved ones. Faith gives them that. Take that away and what will people turn to when they are suffering. When they end up in jail. With nothing to live for, no hope or light at the end of a dark tunnel........a lot more suicides.
Faith also keeps some people in check. They respond to it. If there was no higher power to punish for them for all their heinous acts, some would just go for broke.
I am glad that people believe in god. As long as it's supposed to be a good god, with peace and love and all that stuff. Because even believing in a god of peace and love and all that stuff. People will still turn faith into something heinous, but thankfully the majority don't. And not only that, they impart those feeling unto others. Love and peace and all that stuff. Granted religion doesn't have a lock on love and peace, but as a whole I think they sure espouse and show it more than most. Sure there is a lot of malarkey in most religions, but out on the street, I find people of faith to be more than okay with me. [Edited 12/8/10 17:59pm]  |
The old addage "Life is not fair". Without hope some people would not be able to deal with the hand that they have been dealt. Not to mention the number of people who would say if this is all their is, what's the point. Some people can't understand, just being inside a church don't make a righteous man |
This is ridiculous. You act as if atheists are incapable of playing make believe. No innovation or imagination? What a load of bollocks. "Knowledge is preferable to ignorance. Better by far to embrace the hard truth than a reassuring faith. If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal" - Carl Sagan
Check out my music podcast: http://adamj.podomatic.com/ |
In many respects I think we would be better off. At least we wouldn't have to deal with religion posing as science and retarding scientific progress (stem-cell research, ID). We wouldn't , either, have a pope to tell millions of people that they shouldn't use condoms and lying about their effectiveness. But then again, this kind of thought experiment is not easy to consider in full.
As for morality, imagination, love, compassion etc. why should we need religion for that? |
Because your head was chopped off. As happened here in the region where I live in about 800 A.D. when Charlemange (or Karolus Magnus or Charles the Great) had everybody killed who wouldn't convert to christianity.
As did the Spanish, Dutch, Portugese, French, English, Italians, Belgians, Germans on their expeditions when spreading round the world.
Reign by fear. ___________________________________________________________________________________
All thinking men are Atheists - Franz Kafka P.s. If you find spelling errors, you may keep them |
as a gay man with black family and a strong sense of feminism?
i can personally list SEVERAL ways this country and society is a WHOLE LOT better than it was 50 or even 10 years ago.... and a large part of that is because people have been getting less psychotic about organized religion.
your dedication is admirable, though completely naive and uninformed. [Edited 12/9/10 0:38am] "Ninja Angels Weep For NO ONE!!!"
-lazycrockett |
The world would be a better place, period. In this world of religious brainwashing and childhood indoctrination, atheism and rational, logical, thought go hand in hand. Who wouldn't want a world full of logical thinkers? Humanity would be FAR more advanced both due to this and the lack of religious oppression.
You ever see that Family Guy episode where Stewie and Brian and travelling through alternate dimensions? They show up in one that looks exactly like their except way more futuristic. Brian asks where they are and Stewie says "Same place, same time, but in this dimension, christianity never existed, there was never any oppression of science, and so humanity is thousands of years more advanced" |
If the mind is capable of creating Christianity, there would just be something else conjured to take it's place. The grass is always greener on the other side. It's not religion that creates anything. It's ourselves. Atheists are equally capable of any so called Christian behavior. It's just semantics.
Sanity, deviance or any other mental state or anomaly is neither intrinsic, extrinsic or exclusive to atheism or anything that satisfies our urges, motivations or imagination.
I just watched "Inception" on pay-per-view
[Edited 12/11/10 1:47am] |
So atheists are not capable of repression?
A number of years ago, there was this one dude by the name of Stalin. Ever heard of him? Atheist as they get. Repression was a pastime for him.
Humans will do evil things whether in the name of Odin, Jesus, Allah, Darwin or dollars. It's in our DNA. By St. Boogar and all the saints at the backside door of Purgatory! |
Thank you....I swear,
Inception is finally on PPV? See ya later. "Success has a great tendency to conceal and throw a veil over the evil of men"....Demosthenes |
Because these powerful men took Christianity to the level of evil. They've actually thought they were doing spiritual justice by chopping people's heads off. If men have to chop another man's head off in order to force their beliefs, that's not Christianity. It is just plain wickedness because it goes against Jesus works and sayings, that is: if you believe in Him. Let's talk about the holy war of the Crusades. The Muslim religion was taking over, and the Crusaders fought back to maintain their Christian beliefs. Let's talk about Christians who were being persecuted for being Christians. Does that make them evil? |
That was my point. Even if you don't believe in it, its easy to recognize that the idea of GOD keeps people in order, some that would otherwise, go off the deep end. So many criminals have changed their lives because of GOD...this can be seen as a positive. Without GOD, just imagine all the criminals that would continue on a path of destruction, and those that would start... Prince is GORGEOUS. I'm inspired. GOD is GREAT. Is there anything else to say? lol |
Well, yes you got me there!!! Its a lose-lose situation, depends on what side of the track you're on I guess.. Prince is GORGEOUS. I'm inspired. GOD is GREAT. Is there anything else to say? lol |
...because the "believers" would kill you.
What utter nonsense. While you are certainly correct that religion and fear of god is used as a means of manipulation and control, you're completely ignoring all the atrocities committed in the name of your very god.
People had morals eons before anyone had dreamt up Christianity. The idea that no one was happy or had a peaceful life before the advent of Christianity, or could be so after it fades away, is simply so disconnected from reality that I can't even process such a lie to understand how anyone could seriously believe it. You must completely lack historical perspective.
It *is* interesting that you think you wouldn't be a good person left to your own wits, though. Normal people have a general idea of right and wrong and it has nothing to do with religion whatsoever. Some people could, also, behave badly without religion - it merely gives them an excuse to do so.
[Edited 12/12/10 1:34am] |
I know a lot of atheists like to take the moral high ground on this question and, looking back on the history of man, it's pretty easy to blame a lot of violence on religion.
But humans are inherently violent. Christianity, Islam, whatever, those are just excuses to exercise violence, not the cause of violence.
However, if everybody was atheist, that would be one less very significant excuse for people to be violent. When someone said they wanted to wipe out Israel, it would then only be for territorial reasons. Things would be a lot more black and white, a lot easier to deal with.
I think also the world would be a lot better taken care of. When most believers see the planet as something that will be disposed of soon, they don't care about the way they rape it. If everyone was atheist, we might be a little more concerned about where our future was headed.
And to those that say god keeps people in check, that people behave themselves solely because they think god will lay the hammer down on them if they don't, well, I don't know if that's true or not, but if it is, my opinion of mankind just went down a couple notches. "Knowledge is preferable to ignorance. Better by far to embrace the hard truth than a reassuring faith. If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal" - Carl Sagan
Check out my music podcast: http://adamj.podomatic.com/ |
Stalin killed more people than anyone and he was an atheist.
Bad people use religion to excuse horrible deeds, not the other way around. |
Sorry I didn't see your post. You said it better than I did! |
To his point, I think he was talking about specifically about scientific oppression. As far as I can think, there aren't any examples of scientific breakthroughs being silenced in the name of atheism.
It is certainly true that most scientific breakthrough for the first 1700 years after christ came extremely slowly and painfully, and if some magic wand was waved and the ONLY thing that changed in our history was that scientists and philosophers could express themselves freely without fear of persecution, we would more than likely be in a more advanced society today, technologically speaking.
As I understand it, Stalin, and the USSR, for all of the wrongdoings it is guilty of, also held science and mathematics and the arts in very very high regard. "Knowledge is preferable to ignorance. Better by far to embrace the hard truth than a reassuring faith. If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal" - Carl Sagan
Check out my music podcast: http://adamj.podomatic.com/ |
Those who place religion as the reason for the evil in the world should think about what they are saying. This type of reasoning has been done before, just replace religion with Jews is the reason the German nation is not successful. Anytime you blame a specific group, there is someone along the lines who will try to get rid of the specific group. In this case it would be ironic because the nature of getting rid of the group is the very thing that the person is trying to eliminate.
The other thing about this is that it is not realistic. You are not going to get the whole worlld, bilions and billions of people, to believe in the same thing. I say that also because of what religion holds for some people.
One other thing to consider is there is only one key principle to atheism. This principle is not going to make everyone hunky dory with eachother. It's just plain ludicrous to think that. Some people can't understand, just being inside a church don't make a righteous man |
I'm no expert on Stalin or the USSR, but I think the Lysenko affair demonstrates that, at least in the field of genetics, there was little respect for the scientific process.
|
Interestiing. I'm not expert either. I guess they valued a good propaganda story more than truth in science. Hey, they're not so different from the rest of us after all. "Knowledge is preferable to ignorance. Better by far to embrace the hard truth than a reassuring faith. If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal" - Carl Sagan
Check out my music podcast: http://adamj.podomatic.com/ |
DaphneLovesPR1NCE said:
Well, yes you got me there!!! Its a lose-lose situation, depends on what side of the track you're on I guess.. i dont see it as a lose. i see it as a very big bucket o' win that we are becoming less bigoted and oppressive as a society "Ninja Angels Weep For NO ONE!!!"
-lazycrockett |
Indeed. It's always, "let's blame everything on those other people and get rid of them so we can save the world."
Well, hell...isn't that the same thing that religious zealots say?
Human nature being what it is, it's kind of silly to assume that removing this or that belief system from the world would make a difference. "Success has a great tendency to conceal and throw a veil over the evil of men"....Demosthenes |
"Success has a great tendency to conceal and throw a veil over the evil of men"....Demosthenes |
I don't ignore what PEOPLE do in the name of religion. Religion itself isn't bad, its the people that follow it and use it for evil. Like money, it of itself isn't bad, its what people do to get it. So don't blame religion, blame the people that use it for evil. So...the good points in religion outweigh the bad points.
And last time I checked, Christianity isn't the ONLY religion out there now is it? So your issues with Christianity is clouding your judgement. People were moral because of another religion! The idea of GOD is found in almost every religion and has been around since the beginning of time! So perhaps its YOU who needs to beef up on your history. I payed attention in my History of Civ class thank you very much!
And just where did I say that I couldn't be good without religion? Again, you quote something that I never said. Stop being a moron and putting words in my mouth! Prince is GORGEOUS. I'm inspired. GOD is GREAT. Is there anything else to say? lol |
Well that's what YOU would see! Religion isn't all about bigotry... YOU see what you want to see. I on the other hand, see my wonderul world of love and Christ-like men slipping away. Where people are loosing the sight of GOD and his love and family values. I see the loss of morals and innocence in our youth...(16 and pregnant is on right now)...especially in our girls.
Godly morals teach children to wait until they are married to have sex; instead our youth are having sex parties in middle school! Godly morals teach young girls to cover their bodies and have chasity; instead our girls are wearing string/thong bikinis at 12 and wearing short with half their butt hanging out.
I love these cool little technological gadgets we have called especially the computer...but it ain't all that when I think about all the girls on myspace that have gone missing, or the bs going on FB. You see, we all see things how we want to see them... Prince is GORGEOUS. I'm inspired. GOD is GREAT. Is there anything else to say? lol |
That's true, but Stalin did not kill millions in the name of atheism. So that's a big difference. In fact, Stalin did create a God-like cult around him, just like Hitler. Both Stalin and Hitler were literally worshiped by their followers and their appearances were similar to religious awakenings. Their believers/followers believed these men to have God-like qualities. Both Stalinism and National Socialism were movements with very religious qualities. |
And once again you have not provided any proof for your claims. Morality exists without religion. The fact that millions of atheists worldwide are loving, caring and very moral beings is proof of that. There are people who need religious guidance to be good people .. and there are others who don't. Religion isn't needed for morality.
And yes, you did imply that people can't be good without religion. Just re-read your first post on this thread where you clearly stated that without religion, there would be no peace and happiness and criminality would reign. |
So you do love the benefits of science? Then why do you constantly trash scientific advancements when they contradict your religious fables? Hypocrisy at its best. |
i don't think there's any difference at all, because I do not believe for one second that Jesus Christ would want anyone killed in his name. |
Hypocrisy? No offense, but you just made yourself out to be a complete hypocrite with that line. Some people can't understand, just being inside a church don't make a righteous man |
DaphneLovesPR1NCE said:
Well that's what YOU would see! Religion isn't all about bigotry... YOU see what you want to see. I on the other hand, see my wonderul world of love and Christ-like men slipping away. Where people are loosing the sight of GOD and his love and family values. I see the loss of morals and innocence in our youth...(16 and pregnant is on right now)...especially in our girls.
Godly morals teach children to wait until they are married to have sex; instead our youth are having sex parties in middle school! Godly morals teach young girls to cover their bodies and have chasity; instead our girls are wearing string/thong bikinis at 12 and wearing short with half their butt hanging out.
I love these cool little technological gadgets we have called especially the computer...but it ain't all that when I think about all the girls on myspace that have gone missing, or the bs going on FB. You see, we all see things how we want to see them... i dont see what i want to see, i see reality. and reality is i and millions of americans are being denied constitutionally granted equal protection under the law. who makes up almost the entire bigoted core that is keeping me and folks like me legal second class citizens? christians. fake christians who have narrowly and often singularly focused on tryin to keep gay folk under thumb. "family values" is just a easily digested buzzword for bigotry. i have yet to meet a single athiest or agnostic person that wants to not have equal rights for all of us. and standing up for that kind of principle is a hell of a lot more moral than opressing an entire section of tbe population [Edited 12/12/10 19:57pm] "Ninja Angels Weep For NO ONE!!!"
-lazycrockett |
Don't fool yourself, I'm sure that somewhere in time an atheist killed someone for believing; killing in the name of atheism. Given what has been said here regarding religion (hatred), it almost seems that in time their will be a "mass murder" in the name of atheism. Some people can't understand, just being inside a church don't make a righteous man |
in fact, i recall jesus saying what you do unto the least of my brothers you do unto me "Ninja Angels Weep For NO ONE!!!"
-lazycrockett |
You claim that religion itself isn't bad, merely that people who follow it happen to do things on their own that are evil... therefore religion isn't to blame. YET, you turn right around and claim that atheism is responsible for criminal behavior, lack or morals, etc... There's a certain lack of logic to your thinking.
People can exhibit bad behavior whether they are religious or atheist. People can, also, live perfectly happy and peaceful lives, knowing right and wrong, whether they are religious or not. Religion is NOT a requirement to being a good person.
However, religion (in general) can inspire both good or bad behavior. It just so happens that there's a lot in the Bible that supports prejudice, bigotry, hatred, etc... for those that wish to use it in that manner, and those who support the inerrancy of the bible are supporting those negative aspects. The bible is not perfect, not factual, certainly not scientific. It's a collection of ancient fairytales and to suggest it as the only source of moral guidance is ridiculous.
No, that fact that Christianity is the current mainstream religion (and no doubt that will not always be the case) and why it's used to continually commit atrocities, and support inequality, in the present day is why people focus on it. Virtually everyone taking part in hate crimes, for example, backs up their behavior via Christianity of one form or another.
Using religion to live your own life is perfectly fine, forcing those religious beliefs on society/others is wrong (and in the US it's un-American).
Like others have stated in this thread, I've yet to meet an atheist that was against equal rights. They may exist, somewhere, but I know a lot of atheists. I know a lot of Christians too and a great deal of them are bigots. Some are not but a great deal certainly are. You, yourself, were recently banned for hate speech against gays and yet you claim to be a good Christian.
...and many of these societies had moral and legal systems divorced from tribal beliefs. Celtic communities, for example the Irish in particular, had their "brehon laws" that were rather extremely advanced and often-times surprisingly fair and modern in their sensibilities. That is until the effect of Christian churches reached the area and imparted its principles upon the local population and society. They were powerful as a negative rather than as a positive factor in this case.
Where was I quoting in that message? HOWEVER; You said, and I quote:
How does that not imply that you feel religion is the only thing keeping you "good"? According to your ideas, no one can be happy without god and yet there are millions of non-believers and atheists in the world who live perfectly happy lives every day.
On the other hand, if you are now suggesting that you could be moral and happy without religion then your entire argument just collapsed into a pile of dust.
SO - simple yes or no question - could you be a good person without religion?
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Of course, as opposed to your theoretical ideas, Christians are still killing non-believers or those who are seen as different/seen as a threat around the world and there have been numerous 'mass murders' in the name of Christianity through out history.
|
Umm, the minimum age for marriage through out Christian societies in europe, historically, was often as young as 12 for females and sometimes younger. Generally puberty was the marker but there was some thought that marrying slightly before ensured the husband would be the first to impregnate her. Virginity was a highly sought after quality.
So there's your Christian tradition and Christ-like men in action. |
You fail to see the nature of atheism in its present state is relatively new. Give it time, I'm sure it will disappoint you. You also fail to see that there are many many many more believers in time who never killed or condoned killing. The nature of your posting just proves my point, you are making religion out to be the reason that there is evil. It only takes one nutcase to take that belief to the extreme and kill in the name of atheism. Some people can't understand, just being inside a church don't make a righteous man |
You seem confused. There is no "nature" to atheism. Atheism is simply a lack of belief. Are there militant Atheists? Sure... but there are a lot more "militant" Christians - even just in the percentages, I'd wager.
On the contrary, I don't have a blanket dislike of religion at all. You'll note this is why my post was not about religion in general but Christianity specifically. Whether the people committing these atrocities were "fake" Christians or not seems ultimately irrelevant, as well. Christianity itself features obsessive in-fighting over which people/denominations are "true" Christians.
What I do see, repeatedly, is that these supposedly "gentle people" rarely stand up against those who act out of hate and claim Christianity as their reason. Oh sure, when someone gets killed they'll stand up and say "Religion itself isn't bad, its the people that follow it and use it for evil.
We're not talking about an isolated, individual... we're talking about a centuries long pattern by a specific religion's adherents. It's ridiculous to talk about theoretical atheists when you have real, live religious nuts actually doing it today.
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Some articles to consider: This is biased I'm sure, but it does have some points: http://www.csmonitor.com/...-coop.html
http://www.factnet.org/vb...-8626.html
http://www.anatheist.net/...ss-murder/
http://cultbustersgalacti...L-POT.html
Some people can't understand, just being inside a church don't make a righteous man |
"Ninja Angels Weep For NO ONE!!!"
-lazycrockett |
Agreed, but many religious organizations did kill in his name. |
Would you care to elaborate? Because I can't follow you here. I'm not the one who bashes science when science doesn't confirm my religious beliefs, but at the same time embrace it when it's comfortable. |
Sure, somewhere in time an atheist killed someone for believing. I'm willing to accept that. But since you can't even name any specific examples, it proves my point that history knows of no mass murder in the name of atheism - especially no anti-religiously motivated mass killings or mass oppression - while there are plenty of examples for churches and religious organizations opressing and killing in the name of their God.
Regarding your second sentence - that's pure speculation. You have absolutely no proof for that, and I doubt that this is going to happen. How can there be mass murder in the name of atheism when atheism is not an ideology? For some reason, you're trying to define atheism as another form of faith .. but it's not. Most atheists do not intend to oppress religious people, let alone murder them .. they just don't want them to force their religious beliefs on them. I personally don't care what you believe in, just don't try to force it on me. My wife is Christian, and I am agnostic, tending towards atheism. We get along beautifully. We often discuss religion, but my wife knows that she can't convert me, so she respects my scepticism. I think our marriage is proof that religious and non-religious people can get along. [Edited 12/13/10 6:35am] |
No war, no poverty, no Middle East BS situation, less people causing less strain on resources due to birth control (Most religions forbid it). Society would be advanced. Realistically though the most dangerous religions are Please read my whole post before getting angry (Especially our Born again contingent)
1. Islam (Sorry but it causes, or is the victim of so much hate, war, terrorism and intolerance in this world). Actual pure Islam itself is quite peaceful, but this religion has so been corrupted by extremist groups and regimes and its rules towards women are totally unacceptable in the 21st century. Laws against gays are draconian and most Islamic countries are full of problems. 2. Evangelical/Born Again Christianity (Same reasons as Islam, but minus the war part). Also this form of Christianity has a mass appeal amongst Americans and lower class sectors of the populations in Developed Countries), anti progress, anti gays, women seen as 19th century domestic drudges, creationism and some groups are borderline racist. Also charisma or money churches where flashy ministers control the lives and wallets of mostly poor and uneducated docile followers, like Destiny Church in New Zealand and Creflo dollar. 3. Roman Catholics (Their hypocrisy with all the paedophile priests, historic and recent abuse cases, medieval stance on birth control abortion, and many Catholic countries have huge divisions between rich and poor, latin america etc) 4. Hinduism (Strict laws, sexism towards women, classist and elitist Caste System) 5. Orthodox Judaism (Militaristic policies of Israel, separation from modern world) 6. Extreme Christian Groups like Jehovah Witness, Mormonism, 7th day adventist etc (These groups encourage separatism and encourage extreme dogma that encourages mass submission from followers) 7. Rastafarianism, encourages uses of illegal drugs, rejects modern world as bad or Babylon, encourages social outcasts and in some countries violent crimes against Babylon socities 8. Cults, all kinds, sexual, new age, financial, Xtian, polygamy, devil worship, leader worship, any group that encourages mass devotions towards a leader and mass brainwashing of followers coupled with the isolation of them from their families and friends.
Less Harmful Religions
1. Bhuddism, meditation and vegatarianism quite harmless, lot of dogma though 2. Reform/Liberal Judaism, most progressive of all religions towards gays and lesbians, some groups have female lesbian rabbis now, still its dogma 3. Liberal Christianity like MCC, better, but its still dogmatic christianity 4. Satanism, lets face at its most harmless its lunacy, at its worst can involve violent crimes and murdering people. 5. Voodoo, ditto the dark arts (Any other religion that relies on blood sacrifices) 6. Atheism Incredibly some atheists are far too vocal with their opposition to God (I am probably guilty a bit here). As much as religions may be wrong to them, religion is still a choice that people should be entitled too
My guess the best theological path = AGNOSTICISM (Believing in God or a higher being, but not following organised religious dogma)
So what are u going 2 do? R u just gonna sit there and watch? I'm not gonna stop until the war is over. Its gonna take a long time |
Atheism isn't a religion, so why do you list it under such?
Agnosticism isn't a religion either. Agostics simply have a higher tolerance levels than atheists. Most agnostics (like myself) do not believe in God, but unlike atheists, who claim to know that there isn't a God, agnostics say that we can't know for sure either way. But there are some agnostic deists, even if this group is relatively small.
Definition of agnosticism according to wikipedia:
Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable |
Do you have any evidence to back up this speculation? Why do you predict that atheism will encourage the mass murder of religious people in the name of atheism? That's a pretty powerful claim, yet you have failed to explain why you believe that and what evidence you base this theory on.
And no, jtfolden did not say that religion is the reason for evil. He made very clear that both good and evil exist outside of the realm of religion. But were many atrocities committed in the name of religion? They sure were, and still are. Were there any atrocities committed in the name of atheism? Well, you failed to provide any examples for such. Instead, you presented the unfunded thesis that this may happen some time in the future. That is not proof. |
I also consider myself an agnostic. Through the years as I get older I see where I have held on to an idea or belief only to later see things through other points of view or more honestly facts to the contrary. Anyway, I walked outside the house one day thinking my blouse was tan. Someone told me definitively and emphatically that it was taupe. Someone else guaranteed me that it was a beige more than anything. To this day I am not sure what color it really is. I have become agnostic about almost everything. |
I would rather everyone be more tolerant. Why hate religion and faith so much? Yes I am... Alive is got we've thing this |
Shucks, Charles Manson killed in the Beatles' name, but that doesn't mean they condoned or encouraged what he did. |
...which is why most bible-beaters are FAR removed from the teachings of Christ. By St. Boogar and all the saints at the backside door of Purgatory! |
Then why didn't Jesus come back down to stop the madness comitted in his name? That was not a serious question, of course. As an agnostic, I believe that Jesus wasn't a supernatural being and that he is dead and will not return.
I think you're quite stretching it here. Manson was one person, he had no association with the Beatles other than that he bought their records.
The Catholic Church, however, is the Jesus club. It's the oldest, biggest and most powerful Christian church in the history of Christianity. To one billion believers, the Pope is the representative of Christ on Earth. Now if this organization commits murder, torture and oppression in the name of God, it has a little bit more weight than Charlie Mansion and his love for the Beatles, don't you think?
Personally, I don't think Jesus - if he exists in the form that you believe in - would support these killings. But my issue is not with Jesus. I don't even believe in him. My issue is the atrocities committed by organized religion in the name of God. |
It's a part of being human. You fear/loathe/hate that which you do not understand.
The way Christians were persecuted in Roman times was mirrored in the way non-Christians were persecuted in Roman Catholic times, and could be mirrored a century from now if religion as a whole is persecuted in the forthcoming "scientific times" (I made that up of course).
The closest we've been to Utopia was when we were still swinging from trees scavenging for food butt-ass naked. The moment we picked up that bone/stick/rock and learned to use it to enforce our rules...it all went to hell. By St. Boogar and all the saints at the backside door of Purgatory! |
That's a rather one-sided view, isn't it? Did you ever ask believers why they hate non-believers so much? The Crusades? Inquisition? Suicide-bombers? 9/11? Hate against gays? And your issue is with "hate and intolerance" from atheists? Really?
Where is the hate and intolerance that you speak of? Since when do atheists kill believers for believing? Especially atheists and agnostics on this thread are not hateful and intolerant. Maybe we just don't want religious beliefs being forced on us. And what about the gay forum members who feel discriminated against by religiously motivated oppression? Where is your sympathy for that?
Most atheists are more tolerant and less hateful than you'd be willing to admit. Nodody is advocating outlawing religion here.
[Edited 12/13/10 9:43am] |
Yes I am... Alive is got we've thing this |
Why not?
But you don't believe in him... So how could you make that assumption? Are we playing the "IF" game now? Convenient. LOL! |
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when people say they do not believe in Jesus they mean as in the Son of God. They are not arguing that there was not such a person, just that he was just a person. To some even if there was such a person it is not important as he was just a man and nothing supernatural. Yes I am... Alive is got we've thing this |
Whether it's one man or one billion, the fact remains that nowhere has Jesus Christ ever asked or condoned killling done in his name.
God gave humans free will. What we do with it, and the consequences thereof, are our problem. |
Exactly. Did Jesus exist? It's possible, even though he might be a combination of different people. But do I believe that he is the son of God, that he walked over water, turned water into wine, healed fatally sick people and resurrected after being killed to hang out among his peers for a few more days before eventually elevating to heaven? No.
There's very little historical contemporary evidence for the existence of Jesus - in spite of the fact that Romans were very good at documenting current events .. they had a very modern approach to journalism. Pliny the younger briefly mentioned Christ's name about 80 years after the alleged crucification. He discussed Christians, who worshipped a man with the name Christus. Tacitus mentioned Jesus almost 90 years after his death, reported that Jesus was executed by Pilatus, but he doesn't cite his sources, so it is also possible that he was already referring to a myth circulating among early Christians. Suetonius wrote about a man called Chrestus.
Of course there are also some Jewish reports .. Flavius Josephus may have been among the first to write about Jesus about 70 years after his death. There are also some references in the Talmud, but they were dated to a later time.
Bottom line, there were decades between the time of Jesus' alleged death and the first independent reports of his deeds. In decades, myth has free-reign and there is no way to verify what really happened, who Jesus really was and if he actually existed. It's all a matter of ... faith. |
If you follow this discussion closely, the issue that most atheist/agnostics have is with organized religion and it's violent and oppressive history, not the alleged thoughts or deeds of Jesus Christ. |
it is a bit like santa. I have been told he is based on a real person that made toys for a few kids... and I am like 'yeah and how is that even close to the myth?'
i could dress up like a rodent and run around the city at night looking to fight crime but that will not make me batman! Yes I am... Alive is got we've thing this |
...well, not out loud at least...
By St. Boogar and all the saints at the backside door of Purgatory! |
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I wanted to add something here, because I have a hard time understanding what "hate" you are talking about.
For example, check out this thread which is currently in the top ten in this forum:
http://prince.org/msg/105/347320
The entire thread is a list of Bible quotes, meant to inspire every day. Did you see just one atheist posting on this thread, disapproving of the quotes or displaying hate towards believers? No. Because really, we don't care what believers do - as long as they don't try to force their beliefs on us. If there was so much hatred here for faith and religion, then why did nobody jack that thread?
Why are not more atheists burning churches in this country to show their hate for religion?
Why don't we see religious leaders being murdered by atheists? If a religious leader is being murdered, it is usually done by someone of a different faith - for a religious reason.
Why has the absolutely insane Creationist Museum in Kentucky not been burnt to the ground by hateful atheists?
Why are no believers being attacked or ridiculed by hateful atheists on their way to church?
I really don't understand where you get this idea from that atheists hate religion and faith. I certainly don't hate it. I don't understand how a rational, intelligent person can subscribe to this concept - but if it makes them happy and helps them to become a better person, then fine.
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hate is hate, and I agree that there are many that use religion as an excuse to be hateful. Sad but true. Yes I am... Alive is got we've thing this |
But I'm still trying to understand what hate you're talking about that you say is coming from atheists. What are atheists doing to religious people? |
OMG that's riddiculous
Some of the biggest criminals are religious leaders. Let us not forget it was a proclomation of faith and a loyalty to the church that protected many priests from arrest and conviction for child rape.
Various churches have killed, stolen, molested children, earned money from prostitution, Tortured and invested in weapons with a full knowledge of the "word of god and his commandments".
Also are you suggesting it's a good thing that people were too scared to say they didn't belive in god?
For many children it was the kind of twisted divine guidence that they recieved that has caused them to self harm, suffer long term feelings of low self worth and even suicide.
I will always be tolerant and try to stand individuals but I don't have to be tolerant of Ideology.
Gay/Queer/Trans people should no more be tolerant of religions than people of colour need to be tolerant of the KKK or Jewish people should be tolerant of Nazi ideology
A common ground should always be searched for but the idea that Morality is an exlusive quality held by religious people is frankly laughable |
calling a believer mentally ill or saying the world would be a better place if there was no religion...
that is just as much of hate speech as ANY racist language can be. Yes I am... Alive is got we've thing this |
I agree. |
to me calling something you do not like 'retarded' is at least as bad as calling something you do not like 'gay.' Why do we have to use such words as an insult? It is an insult to those that fall into that category? Yes I am... Alive is got we've thing this |
I completely agree. Especially about your point in questioning if "the world wouldn't be a better place without....." Which I agree is saying wouldn't it be better without those types of people.
I will agree that a lot of wrong is done by the of abuse religion and of people of faith by those with nefarious intentions. But the same can be said about almost anything and any group.
[Edited 12/13/10 17:57pm] |
Here are some more articles/blogs:
http://marketplacechristi...today.html
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4076
Some people can't understand, just being inside a church don't make a righteous man |
people do some messed up stuff. Some make up excuses. Yes I am... Alive is got we've thing this |
http://edition.cnn.com/20...index.html
Key text from article:
“I am prepared to fight and die for my cause,” he wrote.“I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection.” Some people can't understand, just being inside a church don't make a righteous man |
uhmmm but that guy didn't kill those people because they were believers and not atheists.........
so that guy was - a stamp collector ...and plenty of other things
he didn't KILL however in the name of Scandinavians, just as he didn't kill in the name of bicycle drivers, the shooting also was not motivated by Star Trek, stamps or blonde hair colour. and not by Atheism!
he justified his killings with natural selection (while he was doing exactly the opposite by the way: that would not be "natural" selection but "artificial" one, performed by him. so he didn't really understand the concept then, oh well, but however that's not the point)
accepting the biological FACT of natural selection and evolution does nowhere equal atheism, in case this was the point you were trying to imply...
[Edited 12/14/10 1:32am] “Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.” Han Solo
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. " Susan B. Anthony |
You'd still be stuck with those fucking humans... So it doesn't matter what religion, atheism or otherwise, one is succumbed to; Stupidity = Stupidity... The world, as in "Earth", would still look as hideous and beautiful as it does and there would still be those fucking humans running around with their politics and economics so Stupidity would still prevail...
Neversin. O(+>NIN<+)O
“Is man merely a mistake of God's? Or God merely a mistake of man's?” - Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche |
*THIS*
buist continues to fail at supporting his idea. |
No, I supported my idea. Nice try at an insult though, I'm sure your mother would be proud. Some people can't understand, just being inside a church don't make a righteous man |
No, you absolutely did not... that nutjob wasn't attacking anyone because he was an atheist nor because the other people were religious.
You're just doing the forum equivalent of tossing stuff at the wall to see if anything sticks.
Oh, and if I were interested in trying to insult you personally, you'd know it (okay, judging by the above, maybe you wouldn't...). |
Thanks for proving what the world would be like. Some people can't understand, just being inside a church don't make a righteous man |
As opposed to people (well, you) pulling irrelevant articles out of their butt to support illogical, basless ideas? Sounds like heaven. |
Lets not take this too seriously guys. This is just a goofy site to goof off. Keep it fun, even if we disagree with each other. |
Don't worry about me. I never take anything on the .org seriously. |
By St. Boogar and all the saints at the backside door of Purgatory! |
uhmm no you didn't
but let's try it the other way around, 75 percent of all serial killers in current US jails belong to a Christian denomination. so can we file all of them as religious murders killing in the name of Christianity? “Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.” Han Solo
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. " Susan B. Anthony |
yeah I know. people often mistake my posting style as something it is not. Sometimes they do not get the humor in my posts. I get knocked around but it is fun. I also like to sometimes be overly literal! Yes I am... Alive is got we've thing this |
I now tread lightly responding to you now. I am not always sure if you are pulling my leg. |
Yes I am... Alive is got we've thing this |
What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Some people can't understand, just being inside a church don't make a righteous man |
...and now you're down to irrelevant responses, too?
Unlike your supposition, the activities of fundie Christians are not confined to "theory." They actually happen every day. |
i always get an image of a man grabbing a girls bottom (a goose) and then when she gets mad he takes a peek down her shirt (the gander)... kind of gives new and sexy meaning to that term. (well as sexy as a sexual assault can be i guess? Yes I am... Alive is got we've thing this |
That statement is full of bs. First, care to show proof. Second, just because someone says that they are a Christian doesn't make it true if they do not show it by their actions. Third, what is the percent of Christians of the US population? Fourth, my articles are in the same nature as what has been said about Christians, so what is good for goose is good for the gander. Some people can't understand, just being inside a church don't make a righteous man |
Yes I am... Alive is got we've thing this |
One thing I have learned is that you don't debate with someone who is prejudice. Some people can't understand, just being inside a church don't make a righteous man |
I don't know about serial killers but I imagine it's roughly the same as the normal prison population.
One such study: http://www.homeoffice.gov...sb1501.pdf IIRC, less than 1% of the prison population were self-identified as Atheist.
The problem here is that virtually every Christian denomination thinks they're the "true" Christians and there's a lot of in-fighting over this even among those who are seemingly "good" people. Your exemption could apply to any group, religious or otherwise.
The above is a moot point, if the people committing the crimes think their belief system supports those actions (such as gay hate crimes).
No, they aren't. You picked a random article that just happened to mention the word atheist. The person wasn't attacking people because he was an atheist nor was he attacking others because they were religious. Yet, we have centuries of data on non-believers being attacked by Christians because they did not follow a specific belief. |
Are you suggesting people shouldn't debate with you?
The reality is that 'debate' tends to occur between people of differing viewpoints rather than those who agree so, much like your theory on mass murdering atheists, the above is a rather empty, unsupported statement.
You're just tossing stuff at the wall again. |
Where have I shown that I am prejudice? Some people can't understand, just being inside a church don't make a righteous man |
I'll do what you have repeatedly done and just say that it is all just irrelevant. Which is my whole main point. No matter what the crime is, people (any beliefs or non-beliefs) will often come up with excuses for why their behaviour is not wrong (purposely using the negative) and somehow above the law. You have chosen to make whatever the justification is as being the root (which is done in the courts everyday). Which brings this back to the actual subject of this page, that humans do evil things, regardless of belief or non-belief. Some people can't understand, just being inside a church don't make a righteous man |
Actually, your statements about 'mass murder' in the name of atheism show a distinct prejudice because your are putting it forth without a shred of evidence to support the idea. |
...and you would be wrong, yet again. You asked for proof of the religious make-up of the prison population and were given just such a report.
If you were to state that many people do "evil things" regardless of their religious affiliation, then I would agree. This happens on all sides...
However, that's not the real issue here. Some very specific and very real events have taken place directly because of religion and Christianity in particular. Hate crimes against the LGBT community are highly influenced by religious scripture and are, in fact, emboldened by the bigotry that a sizable portion of the Christian community display on a regular basis. You do NOT see this from all religions, and are even less likely to see it among non-religious people/people un-influenced by religion.
You can argue that not all Christians are like that and it would be true... but a huge number of those people still sit idly by and let the bigotry continue and the hate crimes go on. Their silence makes them complicit. |
First off, the "evidence" (building a utopia) is in the same nature as to what has been posted about Christianity. Second, it is not prejudice, I was trying to prove a point subtly. I did this on purpose to see how some people would respond to it (and as I previously stated, I don't debate with those who are prejudice.) Some people can't understand, just being inside a church don't make a righteous man |
It's fairly hard to prove a point when backed up by irrelevant evidence. "Building a utopia" is not a mantra or meme among non-religious people. It's not intrinisc to the beliefs of Atheists, either. It can hardly be compared.
...and it's already been explained why your commentary about debating people who are prejudice is flawed. |
Actually I am not wrong. Two things that you either ignored or just threw away. One, just because someone says that are a Christian doesn't make it true. Second, how does that percent relate to the general population. The fact that you ignored that second one again goes to a prejudice. You show more prejudice in the second paragraph. And as I already stated, I do not debate with the prejudice.
There is a difference between saying that something is a contributing factor and saying that it is the cause of the factor. You seem to be doing the latter. When an atheist dictator kills millions in an effort to basically build a utopia here on earth, am I to assume that his non-belief was not a contributing factor? Since their is no atheist manifesto (and the population has been/is considerable less), there is less opportunity for someone to "take matters into their own hands" and use "it" as an excuse.
Your last paragraph again shows prejudice. There are many many many groups that speak out. [Edited 12/15/10 12:48pm] Some people can't understand, just being inside a church don't make a righteous man |
The evidence is not irrelevant, the subject matter is. I never said it was, but if you don't believe that their is an utopia after-life, how can you say that the non-belief is not a contributing factor in trying to build an utopia on Earth.
Where? I'll explain my position. When you are debating someone that is prejudice, it doesn't matter what is said because the person already has their mind made up, so whatever is said doesn't matter. Some people can't understand, just being inside a church don't make a righteous man |
To bring this somewhat full circle (and a South Park episode). Mark David Chapman's murder of John Lennon had the book The Catcher In the Rye as a factor. This was only one case, but what if it had been more. Is it to assume that the book is evil and the cause of the problem, even though many many many other people have read the book and not responded in the same way? Some people can't understand, just being inside a church don't make a righteous man |
There were approx. 200 wars/battles lead by the Romans from 5th century BC to the 1st century BC. I’m just using Romans out of the rest of the world because it was a great and respected empire, but there were battles taking place in China, Africa, among tribes all over the world. Granted the Romans were a religious people, yet their wars were never “religious wars”, but about power and wealth. It was common practice to starve out people, slaughter complete villages of men, women and children. Take those that were not slaughtered as slaves. I’m trying to understand how this is viewed. Do people think that in this time we have mentally evolved beyond such behavior, if so where do they get their evidence that we’ve grown up beyond the desire of power and wealth? [Edited 12/15/10 14:10pm] "Twinkle, twinkle little star how I wonder what you are."
Not "Save the Planet", but "Save Life" "The Price one pays for entering a profession or calling is an intimate knowledge of its ugly side." James Baldwin |
If I didn't believe in God, I probably would steal and I know I would kill someone if they pissed me off bad enough. Believing that there's someone who can punish me with eternal hellfire definately keeps me in line. Andy is a four letter word. |
I know that you are being facetious, but your statement doesn't somehow disprove the statement. Some people can't understand, just being inside a church don't make a righteous man |
Actually, I've touched on that MORE than once in this thread.
...who decides who is a "true" Christian? ..and when people are going around doing these things, based directly on Christian scripture, and other supposed "true" Christians aren't speaking up - that leads to an impression of condoning that activity.
You can't just swat that argument away by saying "All Christians aren't like that" because you'll come up short. Sure, some aren't like that BUT if it were true about the majority then people like Tony Perkins or organizations like NOM wouldn't have the standing in those communities today to spread their hate. There is a sizable portion that agrees or condones by silence.
I've never stated that at all. Indeed, I have stated that some people will do "evil things" regardless of whether they are religious or not. However, there can be no refuting the fact that the bible is a hugely contributing factor to the agendas of many people, including the two above specific examples (and those are really fairly minor examples, obviously). The majority of hate crimes and bigotry against LGBT people are backed up by those offenders spouting bible-based rhetoric.
If there was great condemnation among the Christian community against this bigoted type of behavior then it would occur to much less degree than we are seeing. In reality, it's often the reverse. Heck, some of these people get voted into public office!
"Assume"? Is your hypothetical atheist only killing religious people or is it indiscriminate?
When someone with quotes from Leviticus tattoed on their arm is beating you to near death and crushing your face in, how much assumption is required?
Indeed, because 'atheist' is just a descriptor for a lack of belief. Whether .1 percent of the population was made up of non-beievers or 50% was... they'd share nothing more in common than simply not being religious people. 'Not believing' in something isn't generally a uniting force, it's usually the opposite.
It's not prejudice if reality bears it out. I never said no one speaks against it, but it is not the majority. Would some of these bigots still be operating as they do without religious influence? Sure! ...but there's a great number that are emboldened by the environment that currently exists, that probably would not act out otherwise. Just as you can say that religion keeps some people "good" or in-line in society, it also gives out a license to do some pretty nasty stuff.
If another religion were more popular, or no religion at all, the situation might be entirely different. |
You did sweep it. Faith without deeds is dead. There are many who are "Christian" in name only. I'm not trying to define "True" Christians, but simply stating that just because someone says that they are Christian doesn't necessarily make it true. The fact that they are prison is another reason to question whether they are trully Christian. Again with the prejudice, there are many many many who speak out. It seems that you are making those who are prison who claim to be Christian to be in prison because they committed a "hate-crime", when the majority that is not the case. Again, this goes to your prejudice.
Are all Germans evil? Because their was a sizable portion of the population that supported the Nazi regime? Again, this goes to your prejudice.
My point was that you have less opportunity to misconstrue something for your own personal agenda or misconstrue the meaning of something.
Actually you are wrong. The majority is against it, but again you stating that the majority is not against shows your prejudice. Some people can't understand, just being inside a church don't make a righteous man |
As I pointed out, just because something is a contributing factor doesn't make that contributing factor inherently evil. As to your statement that their isn't condemnation of these acts within the Christian community, but in reallity there is. Again your prejudice is clouding your perception.
The killing is discrimate in that it is trying to get rid of anything that the dictator believes will not allow him to reach this utopia, which includes believers.
Some people can't understand, just being inside a church don't make a righteous man |
You know, you keep talking about "my" prejudice and how you don't debate with people who hold a prejudice and yet here you are continually replying to each and every one of my posts.
Even more hilarious than that, you're actually coming up with rebuttals to things I never even stated, let alone implied.
I've not focused on the prison issue AT ALL. You were having that conversation with someone else and asked for proof on stated figures which I happened to provide - but I never tied any of that into anything else I've stated. You made the connections between the prison stats and the hate crimes/bigotry all by yourself.
However, unlike you, I'm not talking in theories and make-believe scenarios. The example of the guy with the Leviticus tattoo bashing someone's face in was not made-up. It happened very recently.
I see people like Tony Perkins or Brian Brown from NOM on CNN, MSNBC regularly espousing their bigotry and representing themselves as "Christians" standing for family values, etc... (you can find video clips on YT easily) so where are the other Christian representatives appearing on these shows to regularly denounce them?
Your bias/prejudice seems to be that you don't understand how much of a shadow these types of people are casting across the face of Christianity. Conservative Christians are on the wrong side of history, time and time again.
Where are the mainstream Christian organizations condemning and calling out the behavior of such Christian hate groups as:
Family Research Council American Family Association Liberty Council American College of Pediatricians
If the Christian community as a whole can't "police" its own and it continually allows these hate organizations to be public speakers for them without rebuttal, then you can't complain about anyone having a prejudiced opinion of the current negative environment seeded by their behavior. Hate speech inspires hate crimes.
No, there goes you throwing things at the wall again. I never said anything that would equate with that.
PROVE me wrong.
Like I've said before; What I do see, repeatedly, is that these supposedly "gentle people" rarely stand up against those who act out of hate and claim Christianity as their reason. Oh sure, when someone gets killed they'll stand up and say "Oh, they weren't true Christians" but they aren't doing much of anything at all to counteract all the hate speech being spewed on a daily basis. |
morningsong said: There were approx. 200 wars/battles lead by the Romans from 5th century BC to the 1st century BC. I’m just using Romans out of the rest of the world because it was a great and respected empire, but there were battles taking place in China, Africa, among tribes all over the world. Granted the Romans were a religious people, yet their wars were never “religious wars”, but about power and wealth. It was common practice to starve out people, slaughter complete villages of men, women and children. Take those that were not slaughtered as slaves. I’m trying to understand how this is viewed. Do people think that in this time we have mentally evolved beyond such behavior, if so where do they get their evidence that we’ve grown up beyond the desire of power and wealth? [Edited 12/15/10 14:10pm] I don't believe people are inherently good, nor do I believe the average person would go around just wantonly murdering people. The ideas I enjoy today are because a few people in the past went against the natural grain and fought for those ideas armed only with the God given right . I believe that each generation needs reason why it should behave this way vs that way. To be a bit sarcastic string theory or multiple universes don't provide a why shouldn't my grandkids shouldn't conk your grandkids over their head and take their stuff. [Edited 12/15/10 21:49pm] [Edited 12/15/10 22:15pm] "Twinkle, twinkle little star how I wonder what you are."
Not "Save the Planet", but "Save Life" "The Price one pays for entering a profession or calling is an intimate knowledge of its ugly side." James Baldwin |
Assuming your family doesn't just let its offspring run feral in the streets then one would THINK the parents guide the kids in the pursuit of knowledge regarding right and wrong (and the subtle shades of gray contained therein).
We don't need religion any more than we need string theory for this task. Universal concepts like respect, treating others as you wish to be treated, etc... go a long way.
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It's always about power and wealth. But in most cases religion is the excuse/justification to go to war. Remember how Bush tried to justify the invasion of Iraq by trying to connect those damned Muslims to the attack on the great Christian empire on 9-11 ?
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All thinking men are Atheists - Franz Kafka P.s. If you find spelling errors, you may keep them |
Mark David Chapman was one man. He wasn't the official voice for The Catcher In the Rye. He didn't have the backing of a powerful organization based on the teachings of The Catcher In the Rye that we seeking global domination, killing and torturing generations of people who did not want to subscribe to the teachings of The Catcher In the Rye.
To compare the deed of one man to the crimes of organized religion is a lost argument. |
I don't think anyone here suggested that all religious people are evil. Correct me if I'm wrong, I think that most non-religious participants of this discussion have agreed that the world is full of good and bad people, with or without religion.
But some believers have argued that without religion, there would be no happiness, no morality and that criminals would reign. I believe that this is what most non-religious people have an issue with. |
But that's not the purpose of science. That's the purpose of morality. Religion isn't needed for morality. If your faith inspires you to be a better person, then good for you. Go ahead and believe and be a good person. But there are millions of people who are caring and loving human beings, and we don't need to be told constantly that our sense of morality is based on a God that we don't believe in. |
yeah it is so silly to do things like that. Some guy dose something dumb and has a book and they want to blame the book. It is like those mug shots of 50 people all in obama shirts. As if that was not just a shirt. The other day I wore a Dallas Cowboys jacket and people assumed I am a big fan. No, the coat was free, I am cheep, and it was cold.
it is also like when the caught the uni-bomber the news was talking about the chemicals they found in his house and one was NaCl and they were going on and on about why he would have Sodium chloride! Huh did they really not know what that is? Yes I am... Alive is got we've thing this |
As an Atheist, I believe that people across the world would have the up-most respect for this magnificent planet. Science would be accepted, and have double the column space in magazines than today. People wouldn't seek superstitious drivel that has no actual evidence.
As everyone would share the common knowledge that 'We all become worms meat once we die' and we are extremely lucky to be alive for so little time in this universe, we would respect and love each other. Possibly there would be no slave trade, women would of never been seen as inadequate, or second to men. Gay people where treated like everyone else. And there would be equality for all. Keenmeister |
that was odd.. sorry bout dat! [Edited 12/16/10 9:08am] Yes I am... Alive is got we've thing this |
But there is something inherently disrespectful in this idea against those that do believe. For one it assumes there is no god or no afterlife. It also asserts that science and religion are not compatible. I do not see why anyone would care any more for science. To assert that religion had anything direct to do with slavery is also a huge assumption and flat out insulting. I would say that based on your assumption that there is no god and all religion is made up then all those ills you list existed prior to the creation of religion. Discrimination did not come out of religion if anything religion grew out of discrimination. Yes I am... Alive is got we've thing this |
Once again, it is important to separate some coexisting facts.
Atheism is a disbelief in God. Religion is not necessarily the presence of God. To assert that an absence of religion would also include an absence in God-believing people is not accurate.
I am a Christian, but don't consider myself "religious" in it's traditional interpretation. There are things I do religiously within the confines of my relationship with God, but I don't feel good about practicing "religion."
Religion has caused many bad things, but that you can also find disparities between what the Bible teaches and how those people interpreted it. True genius is knowing how little
you really know. |
True, there are many religions that don't have a central, sentient deity as part of their make-up. In fact, I know a few atheists who enjoy the ceremonial aspects of some spiritual movements despite having zero beliefs in the supernatural aspects.
It's not quite as simple as that, though. Your belief in god is shaped by Christianity. It's one thing to cease being "actively" religious and continuing to believe in the god of that religion. ...but I'm hard pressed to think of, even indigenous, belief systems that feature deities and yet don't include religious aspects.
Indeed, in the absence of a unifying religion it's extremely likely you would not see believers of a singular god but rather a multitude of localized deities.
|
I wouldn't say "insulting" as much as it is comical.
To even suggest that a belief in God (or Gods) somehow made the economic wheels turn that wrought forth slavery (which has existed for as long a humans have had armies) is ludicrous. Slavery served a purpose. The strong conquered the weak, and forced them to toil (in most cases...in Aztec society, slavery was considered an unfortunate "condition" and slaves were allowed to pay off their slavery).
In some societies, religion is used as an excuse for some slavery (Spaniards used "conversion" as an excuse to enslave the indigenous peoples of the Americas since the Vatican opposed their cruel conquests initially).
But mark my word, in 1,000 years should religion somehow evaporate, the strong will still be conquering the weak, and if modern society crumbles in 2012 or for some other cataclysmic event, slaves may yet again toil the fields of America. By St. Boogar and all the saints at the backside door of Purgatory! |
We know that bishops in the House of Lords with biblical authority voted against the abolition of the slave trade. We know that the church owned sugar plantations on the Codrington estates.
A recent book, Bury the Chains, by the American author Adam Hochschild, says the church's missionary organisation, the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts, branded its slaves on the chest with the word SOCIETY to show who they belonged to.
Keenmeister |
and we know that chiefs in Africa sold their own and the men and woman from other tribes into slavery.
and none of what you said refutes or even speaks to what I said.
based on your posts: We know you do not believe at all in any form of an afterlife or in god or the supernatural, we know you believe that all of that stuff is made up. You believe that all religion is made up.
Yet you blame it for some of the ills of the world. But that can not be as all those ills would pre-date all religious texts meaning that (based on what you posted) religion may have been formed--in part--out of these evil things done by man without any influence from any religion.
Yes I am... Alive is got we've thing this |
The question was...What if everybody was atheist?
Throughout history, we have seen religion in almost every case of man's time-line. Even today, some people would consider them self to be slaves for their own labour. As an atheist, knowing that I am a tiny,insignificant, ignorant bit of carbon. I have one life, which is short. My only faith is in love, which connects us beings and brings us together.
Of course, this world is diverse...and it would be ignorant for me to say that Religion had a direct effect of the slave trade. I do believe it most probably gained from it, like most institutions at the time, which surely contradicts itself.
[Edited 12/16/10 10:54am] Keenmeister |
I see zero evidence that the average person is not motivated to some degree by some cosmic mystical force that keeps score on an individual’s personal behavior when it comes to some basic decision making. Again I don’t believe humans are inherently good. That the good you see in people today is basically the inertia from decades of conditioning rooted in many millennia of religious philosophy; remove the root the inertia erodes. Maybe it would last a generation or possibly two, but there’s no evidence that basic self-want wouldn’t be the rule of the land for the average person. Belief in the philosophy is not necessary when one is continuously; consciously and subconsciously saturated with “subliminal PSAs” in their environment, to the “why” that at least gives them pause, which at the same time gives a concrete reason to those few who would aggressively pursue change, even to the determent of themselves when they have no personal stake in the outcome. In my eyes there is no proof that without a solid firm “why” my grandkids have no reason not to knock the fool out of your grandkids to get what they want. So far, to me, anything else is based on beautiful wishful thinking that looks good on paper, but not based on facts about true human behavior. "Twinkle, twinkle little star how I wonder what you are."
Not "Save the Planet", but "Save Life" "The Price one pays for entering a profession or calling is an intimate knowledge of its ugly side." James Baldwin |
to say that religion is not needed for morality might be true but it has helped, much in the same way a child's belief in Santa helps. I know I saw a brat at the store the other day and his mom said something about Santa and he calmed he heck down. So yes the LIE of god can and is a means to a moral end. Yes I am... Alive is got we've thing this |
I agree. And, everybody is different. I actually think it helps those of us who guided one way or another would think it would be equally a good idea to rob a liquor store or believe in someone living inside the belly of a whale. And likewise, those who can see that morality is not a byproduct of religion are already ahead of the curve and can skip Sunday school unless it is something that brings you joy and comfort. [Edited 12/16/10 13:09pm] |
No I'm not and I'm not trying to disprove her statement either because I agree with some of it. I think there are plenty of atheists who are truly good people who just don't happen to believe in God. However, speaking personally for myself, if I didn't believe in God, I would probably just say the hell with it and if I wanted something, just steal it because the only people I would have to answer to would be the police and as long as I didn't get caught, I would be in the clear.
I have had times that I believe there is a God and that he is sending me a message. In the 1990s, I worked in a convenience store. I wanted to go out one night and I only had money to get in the club and not enough for my pack of cigarettes if I went to the club. I took a pack of cigarettes that night without paying for them and used my money to go out to the club. That night, out of all the nights I went out, I got carjacked. When I got paid a few days later, I paid for that pack of cigarettes and didn't have extremely bad things happen to me like that except for times that I have intentionally done wrong.
When I was a teenager in the 1980s, I used to steal vinyl 45s. I would go into Rose's, buy one 45, then go back into the store with the bag they just gave me and steal five and six 45s at a time and put them in the bag with the one I purchased. In the 2000s when I got a CD recorder, I started recording all my records onto CDs. Every now and then, I would come across a few 45s that were scratched. The strangest thing though, the only ones that were scratched, were the ones that I remember stealing as a teeanger. Call it a coincidence, but I really believe that there is a God showing me in some sort of way that he exists and that I'd better think twice about being a fool and doing ignorant things like stealing like I did a few times in the past.
So, no, I wasn't trying to discredit her post at all because I think she's right. I was just speaking for myself truthfully because if I didn't believe in God and that he will punish me for my wrongdoings, I probably would still be doing them. Andy is a four letter word. |
I know exactly where you're coming from. I have been in so many tough predicaments, where out of the blue I would have some sort of lifesaver thrown at me at the perfect time. Too many coincidents that I am sure someone is watching out for me. I may not be overtly religious, but I believe someone is on my side and I thank god profusely every time my neck is saved. |
.....So..... Your only being 'good' to get into heaven?
Why not be a good person, so for when your on your death bed and look back on your life, you would feel proud for being a good person, and that you caused harm to no one....That sense of real achievement.... Any ways, That how I see it.
With the whole CD incident....could it be that the one's you stole as a teenager, you had less respect for than the one's you proudly paid for? Keenmeister |
I try to be a good person but I am human and have had temptations in the past when I wanted something and didn't have the money to buy it. I gave in to my temptations a few times and I feel I was punished for giving in to them. Now I don't have those temptations anymore and have no desire to steal anything. I'm the type of person now that hates a thief more than a murderer having had items stole from myself in the past by other people.
As for the scratched records, I value my records and have treated all of them equally with the same care throughout the years. I find it very strange that only the stolen ones ended up scratched after all these years. Andy is a four letter word. |
OK...so are you retracting your "slavery" statement then? I'm confused.
Also...are you aware that you are ripe for "religion"? You just used "faith" in describing how you feel, and somehow (if I'm not mistaken) you are saying that your "belief" in the scientific model of life grants you the ability to "love one another".
Religion is more than the belief in Jesus Christ. Humans have had Faith for tens of thousands of years. Whether it's the sun, the moon, Yaweh, Isis, Odin, Zeus, Quetzalcoatl, Shiva, Buddha, Jesus, mother earth, or Carbon-14...when humans assign a set of beliefs that grants them some sort of "enlightenment", it's a Faith (a.k.a. "religion").
And btw...we've previously addressed the notion that atheism does NOT equal benevolence. Humans will be either good or bad REGARDLESS of whether or not they go to church on Sunday. For every example of a religious zealot you can find who used religion as an excuse for his/her atrocities, there is a faithful follower of whatever religion you wish to choose, who feeds the hungry, clothes the poor, gives shelter to the homeless, etc., etc., etc. [Edited 12/16/10 21:42pm] By St. Boogar and all the saints at the backside door of Purgatory! |
So you say or have been told. In the whole of human history the major scope of wars has been about christians? I have a problem believeing that given that there isn't that much of recorded history about the scope of humanity, yet there is evidence that everywhere humans have been there have been problems. People have done travesties throughout history for their kings, their country, their pride, perhaps we need to look at something deeper as the culpret. "Twinkle, twinkle little star how I wonder what you are."
Not "Save the Planet", but "Save Life" "The Price one pays for entering a profession or calling is an intimate knowledge of its ugly side." James Baldwin |
Then science is not design to shape the human morals. So what's the freakin' arguement about? Who gets to decide what is moral? It seems to me that some want to put it in the hands of scientist. What are the standards of morality? Tradition? Why are you and your problems important to me if you're not contingent to my survival? Do a group of buffalo give a damn about a calf that's not part of their herd? Is that the standard I pattern my life behind? Is it the behavior of chimps how I'm to pattern my life behind? This concerns me. "Twinkle, twinkle little star how I wonder what you are."
Not "Save the Planet", but "Save Life" "The Price one pays for entering a profession or calling is an intimate knowledge of its ugly side." James Baldwin |
You know its times like this we all need to stop fighting and Boogie oogie oogie til we just can't boogie no more. Seriously this christians vs atheist crap has been going on for far too long. Okay there are some people who are hardcore and born again fundamentalist Christians, as much as us agnostics/atheists/ moderate Christians/ other religionists disagree with them, we can't make them go away and has as long as they ain't preachin their Dogmatic BS tro my face, they are free to worship who they want. For crissake this site is a dedication to man who is a hardcore Christian himself, so all us atheists who dig him, should at least tolerate his beliefs and the fact a lot of his fans like DaphnelovesPrince (there I said it) are Christian and its time we just got over it. I stand by my original point, although we may not agree with their views, its still their right to have them and practice their religion anyway they want. So what are u going 2 do? R u just gonna sit there and watch? I'm not gonna stop until the war is over. Its gonna take a long time |
I'm not sure if this has been said elsewhere in the thread because, honestly, I haven't read all of it (rather lazy of me I know), but there's a very good quote that I've heard from some big-name atheists like Richard Dawkins, which states: Everyone is really an athiest in regards to most of the God's that are, or have been, worshipped in history. Most people reject the ancient God's such as Thor; Zeus and Apollo etc. The only difference is that true atheists just go one more God than everyone else!
I think that's a rather cool quote. [Edited 12/27/10 12:45pm] "Man, the living creature, the creating individual, is always more important than any established style or system." - Bruce Lee |
I'm confused. So atheist means not believeing in a particular deity, no long just not believeing in any deity at all? "Twinkle, twinkle little star how I wonder what you are."
Not "Save the Planet", but "Save Life" "The Price one pays for entering a profession or calling is an intimate knowledge of its ugly side." James Baldwin |
Well, the quote could be accused of taking liberties with regards to the definition of an atheist, but it's really just a way of saying that, in a sense, we are all atheists; unless you believe in every single deity that's ever existed!
That's where the problem lies though; so, SO many different belief systems and opinions exist, with people claiming them to be the one TRUE faith. This inevitably leads to war and suffering because people are too damn bigoted to just get on with their lives! The idea that the human race would be worse off if everyone were athiest is a horrible fallacy!
Sure, there would still be unrest and war, but religion has caused SO much of this over the course of its existence. Some people are just evil and like to cause the suffering of others, but most people are good at heart and wish to help people. What you get with religion, though, is good people doing evil! Not because they ARE that way, but because their religious beliefs delude them into believing that is what they must do! In a world without religion, good people will do good deeds and evil people will do evil deeds. But when you have religion -- BOTH good people and evil people perform terrible atrocities in the name of their one true God!
There's no denying that if everyone were atheist then the world would still have its share of problems. But religion would not be one of them, which it most certainly is right now. "Man, the living creature, the creating individual, is always more important than any established style or system." - Bruce Lee |
Then it would trully become a dog eat dog world. Only the strong would survive. |
Why is this thread missing what appears to be 10 days worth of posts?
Oh well, at least it's back. |
Because the religious society offers an intrinsic safety net? I assume America isn't dog eat dog in our view then? |
Oh, I get it. It’s okay to skew definitions when they suit ones purpose, especially in labeling others. Of course others must be precise in their words and definitions or else they are falsifying their information to suit their needs.
So ideas that work in a person’s head are automatically able to work for society as a whole, with all variables are accounted for. Somehow I’m not buying into to that because life experience shows me that isn’t true, even in the simple mundane things, plans seldom work out the way they worked in my head or even on paper. What’s the model for this completely atheistic society? The USSR? China? North Korea? Somehow, I remember growing up under the Cold War, it was so much fun, of course it wasn’t an actual war because everyone was so self-disciplined and peaceful. The amount of weapons stockpiled, being sold and distributed around the world because of it are of no real concerns because a good portion were made by atheistic countries and aren’t as damaging as those made by the religious countries.
I don’t believe in good people, by the same token I don’t believe in evil people. We all can do good and evil to varying degrees it’s all in the why one should or shouldn’t do that makes the difference. Personal responsibility is helpful, in those everyday things. Some folks don’t feel personally responsible without a damned good reason, I’d bet most feel that way when the crunch is on. Sure there are those that go the extra mile, the few but even they need a why to even get started.
I have a strong feeling that the exact same people who could cross oceans to conk other people across they head are the exact same people who would have no problem conking their next door neighbor across the head, except it’s not socially acceptable so they couldn’t and can’t get away with it, so they must find someone else to conk. It’s not the religion but the people that’s the problem, get rid of religion you got the same problem. Throughout history you always have those few in the exact same religion who manage not to be driven to conk others over the head, and even stand up against those who go around conking others over the head because their religion compels them to, and in most cases after a long struggle they win with their ideas.
Historically, people have committed great atrocities in the name of their Republic, therefore all republics should not exist. Of course a lot of people think that way too. "Twinkle, twinkle little star how I wonder what you are."
Not "Save the Planet", but "Save Life" "The Price one pays for entering a profession or calling is an intimate knowledge of its ugly side." James Baldwin |
Well, I don't think the quote is meant to be taken THAT seriously or literally; what it IS intended to do is to raise awareness. Many people claim that it's so bad to be an atheist and reject or challenge other peoples religious views because it trashes what they believe in (I've personally heard that one a fair few times). But when someone follows a religion, such as Christianity, and claims it to be the one "true" faith, aren't they really guilty of the exact same thing? You can't, after all, be a true Christian and, for example, a true Muslim at the same time -- that would be ridiculous. So, in order to be a proper Christian, you must reject ALL other God's and promulgate that yours is the ultimate view, thus subverting all other faiths. Religion is seen by many as something that shouldn't be subjected to scrutiny, and that's a ridiculous notion; nothing should be exempt from criticism, as long as that criticism is constructive and fair!
That is, obviously, nonsense and not the kind of thing I could ever agree with. An atrocity performed by a religious person, as opposed to one of equal magnitude done by an atheist are of equal abhorrence! The world would still have its fair share of problems and great wars if it were 100% atheist, which is evidenced by all the current and past conflict that was not inspired by religious views. But, religion obviously has been the inspiration behind SO MUCH unnecessary suffering in the past and, unfortunately, will most likely continue to be for a great many years to come!
Well this is a point of serious philosophical debate and one that I doubt will be settled anytime soon. It's an interesting point, but one that I don't think I can fully agree with. It is true that we can all do good and bad to wildly varying degrees, and some might consider people to be neutral. But if a person performs good deeds 99% of the time and someone else performs bad deeds of the same proportion, then couldn't we consider those ultimately good and bad people? I suppose there is no right or wrong answer!
Well of course it's the people that are the problem because they did, after all, create religion in the first place! But religion is something that can be, and very frequently is, used by people to perform horrible acts in the name of their God (suicide bombings for example) that they wouldn't ordinarily have felt it was right to have done without such influence. Just because eradicating religion wouldn't solve all the worlds problems does this mean that we shouldn't still wish it gone if it's a perpetuator of great bigotry, suffering and close-mindedness? Would you rather get rid of people instead, considering that they (and not religion itself) are ultimately the cause of all this unpleasantness?!
I think it's correct that good people can sometimes do evil without religion, but there's no denying that it has historically been the main cause of much unecessary violence and war all over this magnificent little planet!! I am convinced that if it were gone then the world would indeed be a better place, although still FAR from perfect. [Edited 12/27/10 21:23pm] "Man, the living creature, the creating individual, is always more important than any established style or system." - Bruce Lee |
Why be an atheist? A few points...
"Religion is for people who are afraid of hell. Spirituality is for people who have already been there." --------- [Edited 12/28/10 0:13am] |
Yeah the bolded one is one I can attest to. I know folk who only turned to religion as their best days were seemingly over and as a fear of death. As a form of comfort. Which in a ways contradictory, but there you have it.
I have met a lot of wonderful religious people over the years, and death or loss of a loved one seems to be the underling factor to most people's devotion. (what I got out of their personal stories, not their stated reasons.) [Edited 12/28/10 2:25am] |
Beyond that, religious mythology excludes the reality of humans being animals and part of nature. That their texts see humans created outright with orders to claim dominion over and subdue planet earth and other animal species is probably the most damaging delusion in human history. |
I agree. But if people I know were half as awesome as my dogs I would be a little more likely to believe it. |
Atheists are doing unto themselves, not anyone else. |
I don't deny these people's feelings and needs. My problem is that Christianity/Judaism/Islam and other mainstream in$titutionalized religions take advantage of people's legitimate spiritual and existential needs and indoctrinate them with the notion that there's no other choice. |
Not Shamanism though -- if that can be considered "religious."
I think the term "religion" has been abused. Did you know the roots inside the word mean to "re-join" or "get back to where you once belonged," etc.?
I want a "religion" that reverses that. |
This is all sounding so familiar to the Jane Elliot experiment. A lot of very educated people are aware of how it works and it's impact. If one labels, insist and repeat something enough then it must make it true. Such things rely on people's lack of knowledge on any given subject as proof. Religion causes wars, one automatically think of Crusaders, the Inquisition, the invasion of the Americas, missionaries. The fact that people don't know all the wars that took place at a given time or what their causes were is helpful in stating ones case. Who has time to look up the history of war, especially those that have taken place within the 20th century worldwide, it would be mind blowing. Of course those wars don't matter because they don't involve me flipping on my light switch or turning my key in my car. People are being tortured, and mutilated all over the place for all kinds of reasons almost completely unnoticed, because what's being plastered in our face as what's most important. "Twinkle, twinkle little star how I wonder what you are."
Not "Save the Planet", but "Save Life" "The Price one pays for entering a profession or calling is an intimate knowledge of its ugly side." James Baldwin |
Leaders want power and wealth. They will often use religion as a tool to try and brainwash people into supporting them. Some communist leaders (USSR) used atheism as a tool (religious leaders and establishments being killed, made illegal etc.)
Religion is not the cause |
I am not too sure, let me do some more reading by those that have posted here and out in the other part of the world and see what atheist have to say. The typical bitch & moan sessions from both sects are a given.
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True.
It seems like....some of us are on the outside of all the groups of people in their bubble of what is "wrong and right"...and I am just looking at them bitch and argue..reflecting and learning how NOT to conform myself into those Download all the shit hop that you can for your kids, neices, nephews, and their friends also. That will prevent them from going out and buying it and will prevent some shit hop sales. Every little bit helps - Andy
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemus |
URL: http://prince.org/msg/105/348422
Date printed: Sun 19th May 2013 1:14am PDT
They hit the nail on the head with that one. 
