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Advice for atheists? This author at scienceblogs.com does an unapologetically decent job of refuting some cliched defence tactics I'd say:
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i think the article is saying that you can get your point across with out being really mean attacking anybody or just being plain rude about it i think this can go for both religious people and atheist people because if people are just attacking or insulting each other than that will make no one listen and the discussion will pretty much go no where people believe what they want to believe rather its in a god or not and i think that we should all respect that and if people want to talk about lets have healthy civilized discussions instead of attacks and insults
 may u live 2 see the dawn
a yo prince im really happy for you imma let you finish but Michael Jackson had one of the best records of all time! | |
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I see the point you're trying to get across, but really, hardline atheists are just as big of obnoxious cocks as hardline religious types. Jerry Falwell and Richard Dawkins might as well as be old drinking buddies. We are stardust. We are golden.
Feb. 12th -28th: Two weeks of corporate and nationalistic dick-stroking in the guise of a sporting event. I can not wait. |
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meow85 said: I see the point you're trying to get across, but really, hardline atheists are just as big of obnoxious cocks as hardline religious types. Jerry Falwell and Richard Dawkins might as well as be old drinking buddies.  God DAMN there are a lot of dumb motherfuckers walking around! - George Carlin
Stalkerwomen of the world unite in delusion!!!!!  | |
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Vendetta1 said: meow85 said: I see the point you're trying to get across, but really, hardline atheists are just as big of obnoxious cocks as hardline religious types. Jerry Falwell and Richard Dawkins might as well as be old drinking buddies. All claims both would make to the contrary, they both agree on so much. We are stardust. We are golden.
Feb. 12th -28th: Two weeks of corporate and nationalistic dick-stroking in the guise of a sporting event. I can not wait. |
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Keep thy religion to thyself. Left Of The Middle.... | |
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PanthaGirl said: Keep thy religion to thyself. Keep thy atheism to thyself.
I think it's all pretty ridiculous. Just like I don't go around insulting atheists I have no idea why they feel so smug that they need to insult believers. God DAMN there are a lot of dumb motherfuckers walking around! - George Carlin
Stalkerwomen of the world unite in delusion!!!!! | |
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Vendetta1 said: PanthaGirl said: Keep thy religion to thyself.
Keep thy atheism to thyself. I think it's all pretty ridiculous. Just like I don't go around insulting atheists I have no idea why they feel so smug that they need to insult believers. Well since so many peeps consider atheism to be a form of religion, it applies to everyone then. Besides I most certaintly have never thrown my beliefs around, I keep it within and have no intention of brainwashing anyone with utter nonsense i.e..like the jw's and mormons do at peoples private residences. Certain lines should not be crossed because that is very personal! Left Of The Middle.... | |
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dress warm, | |
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Vendetta1 said: PanthaGirl said: Keep thy religion to thyself. Keep thy atheism to thyself.
I think it's all pretty ridiculous. Just like I don't go around insulting atheists I have no idea why they feel so smug that they need to insult believers. Atheism is a response to preachers and so-called messengers of god holding the spotlight for far too long. If every person personally believed in their god or gods and kept it to themselves, atheists would have nothing to respond to and would keep to themselves. The recent explosion of atheist publications is a direct result of the faithful attempting to have too much control over everyone and the fate of this earth, and the chaos that many rational people are seeing can come out of it. If atheists all of a sudden stopped talking, religious fervour would grow stronger. Opposing speech should be encouraged, not stifled. "We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." - Richard Dawkins | |
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Vendetta1 said: meow85 said: I see the point you're trying to get across, but really, hardline atheists are just as big of obnoxious cocks as hardline religious types. Jerry Falwell and Richard Dawkins might as well as be old drinking buddies. I agree that a lot of atheists are obnoxious and downright rude in the way they explain their stance, but their arrogance does not make what they have to say any less correct. Nevertheless, this is about what would make atheists "seem nicer" and not "how atheists are just as bad as fundamentalists", so I would grant this is a fair point. In the same stroke I agree with the original author that dogmatic preachers could heed this advice as much as or moreso than their atheist rivals. "We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." - Richard Dawkins | |
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savoirfaire said: Vendetta1 said: I agree that a lot of atheists are obnoxious and downright rude in the way they explain their stance, but their arrogance does not make what they have to say any less correct. LOL, thanks for assuming that what they say is correct in the first place. Second Funkiest White Man in America   It sure is nice having adults running our government now | |
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RodeoSchro said: savoirfaire said: I agree that a lot of atheists are obnoxious and downright rude in the way they explain their stance, but their arrogance does not make what they have to say any less correct. LOL, thanks for assuming that what they say is correct in the first place. you're more than welcome. And for the record, even though I agree with them, my point is that even if an argument is delivered to someone in a rude or offensive way, for any point, religious or not, it doesn't make it inherently wrong. "We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." - Richard Dawkins | |
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savoirfaire said: Vendetta1 said: I agree that a lot of atheists are obnoxious and downright rude in the way they explain their stance, but their arrogance does not make what they have to say any less correct. Nevertheless, this is about what would make atheists "seem nicer" and not "how atheists are just as bad as fundamentalists", so I would grant this is a fair point. In the same stroke I agree with the original author that dogmatic preachers could heed this advice as much as or moreso than their atheist rivals. God DAMN there are a lot of dumb motherfuckers walking around! - George Carlin
Stalkerwomen of the world unite in delusion!!!!! | |
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Vendetta1 said: savoirfaire said: I agree that a lot of atheists are obnoxious and downright rude in the way they explain their stance, but their arrogance does not make what they have to say any less correct. Nevertheless, this is about what would make atheists "seem nicer" and not "how atheists are just as bad as fundamentalists", so I would grant this is a fair point. In the same stroke I agree with the original author that dogmatic preachers could heed this advice as much as or moreso than their atheist rivals. That's fair enough. "We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." - Richard Dawkins | |
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savoirfaire said: I agree that a lot of atheists are obnoxious and downright rude in the way they explain their stance, but their arrogance does not make what they have to say any less correct. . Gonna have to call you on a fallacy argument. Correct? We don't know that. Nobody really knows for sure whether there's one God, or no God, or several. If we had any way of knowing for sure, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We are stardust. We are golden.
Feb. 12th -28th: Two weeks of corporate and nationalistic dick-stroking in the guise of a sporting event. I can not wait. |
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meow85 said: savoirfaire said: I agree that a lot of atheists are obnoxious and downright rude in the way they explain their stance, but their arrogance does not make what they have to say any less correct. . Gonna have to call you on a fallacy argument. Correct? We don't know that. Nobody really knows for sure whether there's one God, or no God, or several. If we had any way of knowing for sure, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Precisely way all faith is unjustified and irrational. A core tennant of atheism. [Edited 10/6/09 2:08am] "It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him"
Abraham Lincoln | |
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razor said: meow85 said: Gonna have to call you on a fallacy argument. Correct? We don't know that. Nobody really knows for sure whether there's one God, or no God, or several. If we had any way of knowing for sure, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Oreciesly way all faith is unjustified and irrational. A core tennant of atheism. Atheism is a leap of faith, too. Just as you can't prove there is a God, you also can't prove there isn't. Fundamentalist atheists, for lack of a better term, are committing the same leaps of judgment and logic they look down on people of faith for doing. We are stardust. We are golden.
Feb. 12th -28th: Two weeks of corporate and nationalistic dick-stroking in the guise of a sporting event. I can not wait. |
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meow85 said: razor said: Oreciesly way all faith is unjustified and irrational. A core tennant of atheism. Atheism is a leap of faith, too. Just as you can't prove there is a God, you also can't prove there isn't. Fundamentalist atheists, for lack of a better term, are committing the same leaps of judgment and logic they look down on people of faith for doing. If you mean people who would say "there definitely is no god/creator", then yes I would agree. But most athesits would never say that. Rather they take the view that there is no reason to believe there is a god, that such a creature appears extremely unlikely given what we know, and that the diea of a god deserves no more attnetion than any other conceivable idea about the origins of the universe. "It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him"
Abraham Lincoln | |
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meow85 said: savoirfaire said: I agree that a lot of atheists are obnoxious and downright rude in the way they explain their stance, but their arrogance does not make what they have to say any less correct. . Gonna have to call you on a fallacy argument. Correct? We don't know that. Nobody really knows for sure whether there's one God, or no God, or several. If we had any way of knowing for sure, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I don't really wish to argue the case for god in this thread. My intention in the statement, as I said to Rodeo above, was not that atheism was correct, but that any statement one makes is not less correct as a result of it being said with arrogance. And, I do think there is a valuable lesson to be learned here. When someone mentioned above that the way in which some people might argue for atheism with the zealotry that preachers argue their religious dogma causes them to stop listening, I think that is a valuable point that some prominent authors could take note of. "We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." - Richard Dawkins | |
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savoirfaire said: meow85 said: Gonna have to call you on a fallacy argument. Correct? We don't know that. Nobody really knows for sure whether there's one God, or no God, or several. If we had any way of knowing for sure, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I don't really wish to argue the case for god in this thread. My intention in the statement, as I said to Rodeo above, was not that atheism was correct, but that any statement one makes is not less correct as a result of it being said with arrogance. And, I do think there is a valuable lesson to be learned here. When someone mentioned above that the way in which some people might argue for atheism with the zealotry that preachers argue their religious dogma causes them to stop listening, I think that is a valuable point that some prominent authors could take note of. I agree. Although I also think its worth noting that since an atheist is (however nicely you can frame it) in essence telling someone that their faith is irrational (with all the implied personal criticism of that), most people will take offense irrespective of the language used. In that sense the problem very much lies with faith (and the faithful) being unwilling and perhaps even unable to be subject to critical thinking and questioning. "It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him"
Abraham Lincoln | |
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razor said: meow85 said: Atheism is a leap of faith, too. Just as you can't prove there is a God, you also can't prove there isn't. Fundamentalist atheists, for lack of a better term, are committing the same leaps of judgment and logic they look down on people of faith for doing. If you mean people who would say "there definitely is no god/creator", then yes I would agree. But most athesits would never say that. Rather they take the view that there is no reason to believe there is a god, that such a creature appears extremely unlikely given what we know, and that the diea of a god deserves no more attnetion than any other conceivable idea about the origins of the universe. That's true, but it's also true that proclaiming there is no God with sureness is the same thing in terms of logic and lack of empirical evidence as proclaiming there is a God with sureness. Neither position can be proven, so the smugness on both sides isn't just rude, it's unwarranted. We are stardust. We are golden.
Feb. 12th -28th: Two weeks of corporate and nationalistic dick-stroking in the guise of a sporting event. I can not wait. |
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savoirfaire said: meow85 said: Gonna have to call you on a fallacy argument. Correct? We don't know that. Nobody really knows for sure whether there's one God, or no God, or several. If we had any way of knowing for sure, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I don't really wish to argue the case for god in this thread. My intention in the statement, as I said to Rodeo above, was not that atheism was correct, but that any statement one makes is not less correct as a result of it being said with arrogance. And, I do think there is a valuable lesson to be learned here. When someone mentioned above that the way in which some people might argue for atheism with the zealotry that preachers argue their religious dogma causes them to stop listening, I think that is a valuable point that some prominent authors could take note of. 
Voices on both sides of the question need to step back and learn humility and patience. Most people are not going to listen to a speech on the question of divinity if it begins -and it often does -as an attack on the beliefs they already have. We are stardust. We are golden.
Feb. 12th -28th: Two weeks of corporate and nationalistic dick-stroking in the guise of a sporting event. I can not wait. |
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Vendetta1 said: PanthaGirl said: Keep thy religion to thyself. Keep thy atheism to thyself.
I think it's all pretty ridiculous. Just like I don't go around insulting atheists I have no idea why they feel so smug that they need to insult believers. They are just as bad as religious nut jobs. When we say that the purpose of life is to find God, surely that desire to find God is an escape from life -Conciouscontact
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meow85 said: razor said: If you mean people who would say "there definitely is no god/creator", then yes I would agree. But most athesits would never say that. Rather they take the view that there is no reason to believe there is a god, that such a creature appears extremely unlikely given what we know, and that the diea of a god deserves no more attnetion than any other conceivable idea about the origins of the universe. That's true, but it's also true that proclaiming there is no God with sureness is the same thing in terms of logic and lack of empirical evidence as proclaiming there is a God with sureness. Neither position can be proven, so the smugness on both sides isn't just rude, it's unwarranted. Entirely agree. But as I say, any atheist worth his salt would never make such a statement. Even Dawkins, the figurehead of smug atheism, ia happy to state that he can not rule out a god/creator even if he feels one extremely unlikely. I actually think, at heart, people don't like being told, no matter how politely it is put, that their beliefs are unjustified and irrational. To asnwer your point below: "Most people are not going to listen to a speech on the question of divinity if it begins -and it often does -as an attack on the beliefs they already have." Well, how exactly can a conversation be had, between an atheist/agnostic and a believer that does not, intrinically, involve an "attack" on someones pre-held beliefs? Even of you keep the conversation extrodinarilt polite, the athesit core point will always be that their faith is baseless etc etc. People of faith simply don't like to hear that. "It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him"
Abraham Lincoln | |
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razor said: meow85 said: That's true, but it's also true that proclaiming there is no God with sureness is the same thing in terms of logic and lack of empirical evidence as proclaiming there is a God with sureness. Neither position can be proven, so the smugness on both sides isn't just rude, it's unwarranted. Entirely agree. But as I say, any atheist worth his salt would never make such a statement. Even Dawkins, the figurehead of smug atheism, ia happy to state that he can not rule out a god/creator even if he feels one extremely unlikely. I actually think, at heart, people don't like being told, no matter how politely it is put, that their beliefs are unjustified and irrational. To asnwer your point below: "Most people are not going to listen to a speech on the question of divinity if it begins -and it often does -as an attack on the beliefs they already have." Well, how exactly can a conversation be had, between an atheist/agnostic and a believer that does not, intrinically, involve an "attack" on someones pre-held beliefs? Even of you keep the conversation extrodinarilt polite, the athesit core point will always be that their faith is baseless etc etc. People of faith simply don't like to hear that. God DAMN there are a lot of dumb motherfuckers walking around! - George Carlin
Stalkerwomen of the world unite in delusion!!!!! | |
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Vendetta1 said: razor said: Entirely agree. But as I say, any atheist worth his salt would never make such a statement. Even Dawkins, the figurehead of smug atheism, ia happy to state that he can not rule out a god/creator even if he feels one extremely unlikely. I actually think, at heart, people don't like being told, no matter how politely it is put, that their beliefs are unjustified and irrational. To asnwer your point below: "Most people are not going to listen to a speech on the question of divinity if it begins -and it often does -as an attack on the beliefs they already have." Well, how exactly can a conversation be had, between an atheist/agnostic and a believer that does not, intrinically, involve an "attack" on someones pre-held beliefs? Even of you keep the conversation extrodinarilt polite, the athesit core point will always be that their faith is baseless etc etc. People of faith simply don't like to hear that. No difference how? Between what? Between saying definitvely there is no god and critically questioning our existing god stories? Or do you just object to anyone criticising faith per se no matter how it is done? "It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him"
Abraham Lincoln | |
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paisleypark4 said: Vendetta1 said: Keep thy atheism to thyself.
I think it's all pretty ridiculous. Just like I don't go around insulting atheists I have no idea why they feel so smug that they need to insult believers. They are just as bad as religious nut jobs. Surely, you're joking? Your comparing atheists who voice their opinion (wether obnoxious or not) to religious nut jobs? Where are the atheists that discriminate against gays, fly planes into buildings, bomb abortion clinics, send children on suicide missions, instill the fear of hellfire to a young mind, teach the sinfulness of condom use in Africa during an AIDS crisis, ad infinitum...
"...literal people are scary, man literal people scare me out there trying to rid the world of its poetry while getting it wrong fundamentally down at the church of "look, it says right here, see!" - ani difranco PR | |
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meow85 said: razor said: If you mean people who would say "there definitely is no god/creator", then yes I would agree. But most athesits would never say that. Rather they take the view that there is no reason to believe there is a god, that such a creature appears extremely unlikely given what we know, and that the diea of a god deserves no more attnetion than any other conceivable idea about the origins of the universe. That's true, but it's also true that proclaiming there is no God with sureness is the same thing in terms of logic and lack of empirical evidence as proclaiming there is a God with sureness. Neither position can be proven, so the smugness on both sides isn't just rude, it's unwarranted. Actually, most atheist lack belief on whether god exist, we never claim with absolute truth that it does not. That's what theist do. We're open to evidence.
"...literal people are scary, man literal people scare me out there trying to rid the world of its poetry while getting it wrong fundamentally down at the church of "look, it says right here, see!" - ani difranco PR | |
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PanthaGirl said: Vendetta1 said: Keep thy atheism to thyself. I think it's all pretty ridiculous. Just like I don't go around insulting atheists I have no idea why they feel so smug that they need to insult believers. Well since so many peeps consider atheism to be a form of religion, it applies to everyone then. Atheism is the ABSENCE of faith, the ABSENCE of religion. Atheism does not have a set beliefs and is not ruled by an elite group. And, crucially, an atheist must change her/his opinion when new evidence comes to light. | |
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