I heard the NHS was really expensive.

I heard the NHS was really expensive.

2freaky4church1 said:

It's expensive and imperfect.


Much like our much more expensive and more imperfect healthcare system now



But in great Britain heart surgery doesn't mean you have to sell your house.

What the "lying liars" are saying about our health service!
Whilst I had lots of second-hand info (from the likes of Al Franken and Jon Stewart) about the US Right's legendary capacity for dishonesty, even I am quite shocked at just how far they are prepared to go.....

What is particularly breathtaking amid all the mendacious claims about the NHS "putting a price on life" is that they seem unconcerned that millions of their compatriots apparently have lives of no value whatsoever - since they cannot afford healthcare under the US system.

And by the way.....forget "treading a fine line"....why isn't Brown ordering the British Embassy to come out firmly and put the record straight?


From today's Guardian

The National Health Service has become the butt of increasingly outlandish political attacks in the US as Republicans and conservative campaigners rail against Britain's "socialist" system as part of a tussle to defeat Barack Obama's proposals for broader government involvement in healthcare.

Top-ranking Republicans have joined bloggers and well-funded free market organisations in scorning the NHS for its waiting lists and for "rationing" the availability of expensive treatments.

As myths and half-truths circulate, British diplomats in the US are treading a delicate line in correcting falsehoods while trying to stay out of a vicious domestic dogfight over the future of American health policy.

Slickly produced television advertisements trumpet the alleged failures of the NHS's 61-year tradition of tax-funded healthcare. To the dismay of British healthcare professionals, US critics have accused the service of putting an "Orwellian" financial cap on the value on human life, of allowing elderly people to die untreated and, in one case, for driving a despairing dental patient to mend his teeth with superglue.

Having seen his approval ratings drop, Obama is seeking to counter this conservative onslaught by taking his message to the public, with a "town hall" meeting today at a school in New Hampshire.

Last week, the most senior Republican on the Senate finance committee, Chuck Grassley, took NHS-baiting to a newly emotive level by claiming that his ailing Democratic colleague, Edward Kennedy, would be left to die untreated from a brain tumour in Britain on the grounds that he would be considered too old to deserve treatment.

"I don't know for sure," said Grassley. "But I've heard several senators say that Ted Kennedy with a brain tumour, being 77 years old as opposed to being 37 years old, if he were in England, would not be treated for his disease, because end of life – when you get to be 77, your life is considered less valuable under those systems."

The degree of misinformation is causing dismay in NHS circles. Andrew Dillon, chief executive of the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (Nice), pointed out that it was utterly false that Kennedy would be left untreated in Britain: "It is neither true nor is it anything you could extrapolate from anything we've ever recommended to the NHS."

Others in the US have accused Obama of trying to set up "death panels" to decide who should live and who should die, along the lines of Nice, which determines the cost-effectiveness of NHS drugs.

One right-leaning group, Conservatives for Patients' Rights, lists horror stories about British care on its website. An email widely circulated among US voters, of uncertain origin, claims that anyone over 59 in Britain is ineligible for treatment for heart disease.

The British embassy in Washington is quietly trying to counter inaccuracies. A spokesman said: "We're keeping a close eye on things and where there's a factually wrong statement, we will take the opportunity to correct people in private. That said, we don't want to get involved in a domestic debate."

A $1.2m television advertising campaign bankrolled by the conservative Club for Growth displays images of the union flag and Big Ben while intoning a figure of $22,750. A voiceover says: "In England, government health officials have decided that's how much six months of life is worth. If a medical treatment costs more, you're out of luck."

The number is based on a ratio of £30,000 a year used by Nice in its assessment of whether drugs provide value for money. Dillon said this was one of many variables in determining cost-effectiveness of medicines. He said of his body's portrayal in the US: "It's very disappointing and it's not, obviously, the way in which Nice describes itself or the way in which we're perceived in the UK even among those who are disappointed or upset by our decisions."

On Rupert Murdoch's Fox News channel, the conservative commentator Sean Hannity recently alighted upon the case of Gordon Cook, a security manager from Merseyside, who used superglue to stick a loose crown into his gum because he was unable to find an NHS dentist. The cautionary tale, which was based on a Daily Mail report from 2006, prompted Hannity to warn his viewers: "If the Democrats have their way, get your superglue ready."

The broader tone of the US healthcare debate has become increasingly bitter. The former vice-presidential candidate Sarah Palin last week described president Obama's proposals as "evil", while the radio presenter Rush Limbaugh has compared a logo used for the White House's reform plans to a Nazi swastika. Hecklers have disrupted town hall meetings called to discuss the health reform plans.

David Levinthal, a spokesman for the nonpartisan Centre for Responsive Politics, said the sheer scale of the issue, which will affect the entire trajectory of US medical care, was arousing passions: "It's no surprise you have factions from every political stripe attempting to influence the debate and some of those groups are certainly playing to the deepest fears of Americans. There's been a great deal of documented disinformation propagated throughout the country." Defenders of Britain's system point out that the UK spends less per head on healthcare but has a higher life expectancy than the US. The World Health Organisation ranks Britain's healthcare as 18th in the world, while the US is in 37th place. The British Medical Association said a majority of Britain's doctors have consistently supported public provision of healthcare. A spokeswoman said the association's 140,000 members were sceptical about the US approach to medicine: "Doctors and the public here are appalled that there are so many people on the US who don't have proper access to healthcare. It's something we would find very, very shocking."

It seems all the lies about other health systems being bad are just that--lies.

These sources should pretty much bottle up that fact:

Canada:

http://www.scientificamer...ted-states

France:

http://boston.com/news/gl...re_system/

Germany:

http://www.npr.org/templa...d=91971406

http://content.healthaffa...3/4/22.pdf

Norway:

http://www.norway.org.uk/...public.htm

Iceland:

http://www.mapsofworld.co...ealth.html

Shame on the idiot GOP for lying to us about healtcare and shame on the fucking stupid media for allowing the right wing lies being presented as "letting the other side have their say." Their is no other side. The statistics cannot be denied, unless everybody is lying. America has the crappiest health care system in the world, period.

2freaky4church1 said:

So you shared a bunch of opeds to prove that the US has a less sufficient healthcare than those countries.....

I'll take the word of those brits and Canadians I have spoken with that would rather perform their own surgery than have the canadian or brit healthcare take care of it.

As far as Germany is concerned, I do hear some good things about it.

Just keep one thing in mind....You can make the statistics say whatever you want to make them say. A few months ago, all the "facts" and "statistics" supported global warming....

Now, a good part of the scientific community is departing from their political handlers to change their positions...Global Warming exists, but not from CO2 emissions, and definitely not as a primary result of human interaction.

2freaky4church1 said:

So you shared a bunch of opeds to prove that the US has a less sufficient healthcare than those countries.....

I'll take the word of those brits and Canadians I have spoken with that would rather perform their own surgery than have the canadian or brit healthcare take care of it.

As far as Germany is concerned, I do hear some good things about it.

Just keep one thing in mind....You can make the statistics say whatever you want to make them say. A few months ago, all the "facts" and "statistics" supported global warming....

Now, a good part of the scientific community is departing from their political handlers to change their positions...Global Warming exists, but not from CO2 emissions, and definitely not as a primary result of human interaction.

seekingtruth said:

I have lived in the UK almost 2 yrs now and have not met one Brit that feels that way about the NHS.

I have been under NHS care for the past 7 1/2 months now for my pregnancy. No complaints yet, the midwife comes out to my house for the visits.

I must say that every health care system has it's flaws, it is run by humans. I just think it is a disgrace that so many Americans are denied health care.
That is unacceptable.
[Edited 8/12/09 7:04am]

Just keep one thing in mind....You can make the statistics say whatever you want to make them say. A few months ago, all the "facts" and "statistics" supported global warming....

Now, a good part of the scientific community is departing from their political handlers to change their positions...Global Warming exists, but not from CO2 emissions, and definitely not as a primary result of human interaction

2freaky4church1 said:

So you shared a bunch of opeds to prove that the US has a less sufficient healthcare than those countries.....

I'll take the word of those brits and Canadians I have spoken with that would rather perform their own surgery than have the canadian or brit healthcare take care of it.

As far as Germany is concerned, I do hear some good things about it.

Just keep one thing in mind....You can make the statistics say whatever you want to make them say. A few months ago, all the "facts" and "statistics" supported global warming....

Now, a good part of the scientific community is departing from their political handlers to change their positions...Global Warming exists, but not from CO2 emissions, and definitely not as a primary result of human interaction.

Imago said:

Exactly! Ppl do pay A LOT into the health care system here but I think it is worth it for piece of mind and to know when you need care, you will get it.
The dr's office here in town will get you in the same day. That boggles my mind being from the US.
I have never had to wait more than 10 mins to see the dr.
They keep it simple, basic, uncomplicated and from the experiences I have had so far, it is much better than in the US.
I say that coming from a long medical background in the states.

I think their are some ideas that the US could adopt from all of the National Health care services around the world to make it better.
I pray for my mom's sake that they sort their shit out in the states.It is long overdo!

MrsMdiver said:

But also, in the UK, its still very Victorian with communal wards in hospitals compared 2 the USA, where even those on state insurance, get their own private room with en suite bathroom, cable TV, Internet portals, etc.!!! In the UK, hospitals are so antiquated and old and theres paint peeling off the walls and, compared 2 hospitals in the USA, the hospitals in the UK are really dirty basically cos the government isnt funding the healthcare enough 2 even obtain all the necessary cleaning materials, hence we have a huge MRSA problem here!!!

Where I come from(Bournemouth, Dorset, UK), over the past 10 years a so-called brand new "state-of-the-art" hospital was built, but really if that hospital was in the USA it wouldnt b declared fit for animal use, let alone for humans!!!!

The UK healthcare system has loads of problems, like understaffing, long waiting lists for operations(sometimes up 2 a year-2 years), lack of researching, lack of funding, hospital closings or mergings(in some areas theres not even an ER at the local hospital, and so, emergency cases have 2 b taken miles away!!!!), the list goes on!!

I dont really advocate an NHS type of system for the USA, but, I agree, some drastic changes need 2 b made but still keep the USA at the forefront of superior medical and healthcare!!!!

Desire2006 said:

I guess it depends on where you go in both countries. The hospital that I am giving birth in does not have paint peeling and is not dirty.
I have seen some hospitals in the US that looked like that.

A friend of ours mother had pancreatic cancer here in the UK. She was treated at a state of the art facility under the NHS.
She had all of the same treatments that she would have had in the US.
She has made a full recovery, she did not have to wait on any lists or go to dirty facilities.


I have commented on the health care issue before in P&R and I have always said that no system is perfect but the system in the US is broken and needs help NOW!
My mom can come here to visit and not have to worry about getting treated if something happens, in the country she was born in, that is not the case.
That is fucking sad and disgraceful!

MrsMdiver said:

Have u been 2 the world famous Mayo Clinic in Rochester, MN??? THAT is a phenomenal place!!!!! The whole city is virtually upheld by the Mayo Clinic!!! Theres skyways, underground labyrinths of corridors, the reception area is loaded with marble walls and pillars, pristine clinically clean floors and elevators and escalators - so clean that u can virtually eat off of the floors, beautiful restaurants, even a couple of Starbucks!!! A well organized shuttle bus and taxi service 2 take u 2 other hospitals in other parts of the city!! If out-patients have 2 spend more than a day there, the Clinic gives them vouchers 2 stay in any of the top Hotels in the City(we once stayed there in one of the Hotels and the whole place was swarming with Arabs!!). The whole Mayo Clinic Health System is 1,000,000% PROFESSIONAL!!!!

The Mayo Clinic treats rich and poor alike!! Poor people can have the same treatment and service as the President!!!

I cant say enough 2 extol the virtues of the Mayo Clinic!!!!!

http://www.mayoclinic.org/rochester/
[Edited 8/13/09 0:52am]

But also, in the UK, its still very Victorian with communal wards in hospitals compared 2 the USA, where even those on state insurance, get their own private room with en suite bathroom, cable TV, Internet portals, etc.!!! In the UK, hospitals are so antiquated and old and theres paint peeling off the walls and, compared 2 hospitals in the USA, the hospitals in the UK are really dirty basically cos the government isnt funding the healthcare enough 2 even obtain all the necessary cleaning materials, hence we have a huge MRSA problem here!!!

Where I come from(Bournemouth, Dorset, UK), over the past 10 years a so-called brand new "state-of-the-art" hospital was built, but really if that hospital was in the USA it wouldnt b declared fit for animal use, let alone for humans!!!!

The UK healthcare system has loads of problems, like understaffing, long waiting lists for operations(sometimes up 2 a year-2 years), lack of researching, lack of funding, hospital closings or mergings(in some areas theres not even an ER at the local hospital, and so, emergency cases have 2 b taken miles away!!!!), the list goes on!!

I dont really advocate an NHS type of system for the USA, but, I agree, some drastic changes need 2 b made but still keep the USA at the forefront of superior medical and healthcare!!!!

The thing is, I have nearly died TWICE at the hands of the UKs NHS so-called professional system!!!

First time: In 1986 when myself and my not even born yet baby nearly died while I was trying 2 deliver him cos they discovered AT THE LAST MINUTE that I couldnt give birth normally and I had 2 have an emergency C-Section at the 11th hour!!!! Whereas if they all did their jobs properly every ttime I went for pre-natal checkups they would have done all the right tests(which involves calibrations and measuring of the birth canal) and everything and prepared me and themselves for the option of a C-Section Birth!! In the USA, they do EVERYTHING to ensure SAFE childbirth for both the mother and the baby!!!

Second time: In 1988 I nearly died due 2 an ectopic(tubular) pregnancy all because my stupid whacked out doctor(who should have retired years ago before this incident) I had at the time prescribed me the wrong type of birth control pill( he just gave me another brand of mini-pill instead of the normal birth pill which I thought I was taking - long story!!). Hence, I became pregnant and the fetus got stuck in one of my tubes and started 2 grow there instead of in the womb, and even then the docs just said I had a very bad monthly and told me 2 go home and take 2 Anacins!!! All this happened when we were on vacation in Wales and I went 2 a doc there and he said I had bad constipation!!! Anyway, we get home and I am getting worse and worse and aching from head 2 toe and swelling up and shedding "gallons" of blood and in the end the doc at home came out on a house call and examined me and flew down our stairs as white as a sheet and said "I think we better call an ambulance!!!!" The thing is, I was so bad that at that time I really only had ONE day 2 live!!!!!

I WILL NEVER LET THE NHS TOUCH ME!!!!!
[Edited 8/13/09 2:43am]
[Edited 8/13/09 2:44am]

The thing is, I have nearly died TWICE at the hands of the UKs NHS so-called professional system!!!

First time: In 1986 when myself and my not even born yet baby nearly died while I was trying 2 deliver him cos they discovered AT THE LAST MINUTE that I couldnt give birth normally and I had 2 have an emergency C-Section at the 11th hour!!!! Whereas if they all did their jobs properly every ttime I went for pre-natal checkups they would have done all the right tests(which involves calibrations and measuring of the birth canal) and everything and prepared me and themselves for the option of a C-Section Birth!! In the USA, they do EVERYTHING to ensure SAFE childbirth for both the mother and the baby!!!

Second time: In 1988 I nearly died due 2 an ectopic(tubular) pregnancy all because my stupid whacked out doctor(who should have retired years ago before this incident) I had at the time prescribed me the wrong type of birth control pill( he just gave me another brand of mini-pill instead of the normal birth pill which I thought I was taking - long story!!). Hence, I became pregnant and the fetus got stuck in one of my tubes and started 2 grow there instead of in the womb, and even then the docs just said I had a very bad monthly and told me 2 go home and take 2 Anacins!!! All this happened when we were on vacation in Wales and I went 2 a doc there and he said I had bad constipation!!! Anyway, we get home and I am getting worse and worse and aching from head 2 toe and swelling up and shedding "gallons" of blood and in the end the doc at home came out on a house call and examined me and flew down our stairs as white as a sheet and said "I think we better call an ambulance!!!!" The thing is, I was so bad that at that time I really only had ONE day 2 live!!!!!

I WILL NEVER LET THE NHS TOUCH ME!!!!!

The thing is, I have nearly died TWICE at the hands of the UKs NHS so-called professional system!!!

First time: In 1986 when myself and my not even born yet baby nearly died while I was trying 2 deliver him cos they discovered AT THE LAST MINUTE that I couldnt give birth normally and I had 2 have an emergency C-Section at the 11th hour!!!! Whereas if they all did their jobs properly every ttime I went for pre-natal checkups they would have done all the right tests(which involves calibrations and measuring of the birth canal) and everything and prepared me and themselves for the option of a C-Section Birth!! In the USA, they do EVERYTHING to ensure SAFE childbirth for both the mother and the baby!!!

Second time: In 1988 I nearly died due 2 an ectopic(tubular) pregnancy all because my stupid whacked out doctor(who should have retired years ago before this incident) I had at the time prescribed me the wrong type of birth control pill( he just gave me another brand of mini-pill instead of the normal birth pill which I thought I was taking - long story!!). Hence, I became pregnant and the fetus got stuck in one of my tubes and started 2 grow there instead of in the womb, and even then the docs just said I had a very bad monthly and told me 2 go home and take 2 Anacins!!! All this happened when we were on vacation in Wales and I went 2 a doc there and he said I had bad constipation!!! Anyway, we get home and I am getting worse and worse and aching from head 2 toe and swelling up and shedding "gallons" of blood and in the end the doc at home came out on a house call and examined me and flew down our stairs as white as a sheet and said "I think we better call an ambulance!!!!" The thing is, I was so bad that at that time I really only had ONE day 2 live!!!!!

I WILL NEVER LET THE NHS TOUCH ME!!!!!
[Edited 8/13/09 2:43am]
[Edited 8/13/09 2:44am]

Just keep one thing in mind....You can make the statistics say whatever you want to make them say. A few months ago, all the "facts" and "statistics" supported global warming....

Now, a good part of the scientific community is departing from their political handlers to change their positions...Global Warming exists, but not from CO2 emissions, and definitely not as a primary result of human interaction.

Desire2006 said:

1. Emergency c-section is exactly that, you could have opted for elective under the NHS and been granted it. Management of a delivery is a complicated thing but simple measurements of your vagina and circumference of the babies head are not diagnostic at all. Your situation was impossible to predict and managed perfectly. mother and baby ok - job done - FOR FREE!

2. Nobody knows why ectopic pregnancy occurs. Tubal ligation and life saved from a potentially critical situation - job done - FOR FREE!

3. A lack of information about your third point renders me helpless. But, free doctor, free ambulance and you are NOT dead. Job Done - FOR FREE!

Just ask an American what each of those would have cost under their current system.

PREDOMINANT said:

But it still doesnt escape the fact that these 2 incidents should never have happened in the first place!!!! Prevention is better than cure, right?????

And, anyway, my son, did NOT come out of his birth unscathed!!!! He was diagnosed with ADHD/Tourettes/Asperges, cos one of the causes for his condition is lack of oxegen and a traumatic birth!!! All thanks 2 the wonderful NHS, huh???!!! If this was the USA, I could have sued their asses for MILLIONS, both for the first case and the second case!!! I personally beleive that the NHS would b a million times much better, if people started sueing them more for millions over their fuck-ups!!!! they would soon improve then!!!!! Its a shame that we are not as sue-happy over here as they are in the USA!!!!