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Thread started 12/08/08 5:08am

jimmyjam67

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Did Christianity STEAL from Paganism?

The halo around the head of Jesus and saints (in art) is really the pagan symbole for the sun?



Pagans worship the Sun as God, is that right?
headbang
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Reply #1 posted 12/08/08 5:09am

benni

jimmyjam67 said:

The halo around the head of Jesus and saints (in art) is really the pagan symbole for the sun?



Pagans worship the Sun as God, is that right?


Actually the halo is a symbol for "holiness" or (imo) the Christ Consciousness.
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Reply #2 posted 12/08/08 5:10am

razor

jimmyjam67 said:

The halo around the head of Jesus and saints (in art) is really the pagan symbole for the sun?



Pagans worship the Sun as God, is that right?


Huge swaths of christain symbology, celebrations, stories etc are taken from paganism and many other pre-existing belief structures. Very little of christianity can be said to be original..
"He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; and he that dares not reason is a slave." - William Drummond
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Reply #3 posted 12/08/08 5:31am

benni

jimmyjam67 said:

The halo around the head of Jesus and saints (in art) is really the pagan symbole for the sun?



Pagans worship the Sun as God, is that right?


Also, keep in mind that in art, it is the artists interpretation, and does not necessarily have anything to do with Christianity.
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Reply #4 posted 12/08/08 6:02am

mdiver

Since the death of Christ it has been so
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Reply #5 posted 12/08/08 6:37am

shellyevon

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Perhaps halos are a representaion of a person's aura?

There so many similar stories that predate Jesus by centuries.
I am currently reading about the emergence of Judaism from earlier cultures.
It's fascinating how many of their beliefs were directly and indirectly influenced by the surrounding cultures, especially Egypt and Chaldea.
A good source is Mark Smith's 1994 volume on the Ugaritic Baal Cycle.
I also found a very interesting text in the Ugaritic Baal cycle that sounds a lot like Psalm 29:

"Baal sits like the base of a mountain
Hadad settles as the ocean,
in the midst of his divine mountain Zaphon,
in the midst of the mountain of victory.
Seven lightning-flashes [he wields],
eight bundles of thunder,
a ceder tree of lightning in his right hand.
His head is magnificent,
His brow is dew-drenched,
His feet are eloquent in his wrath.
His horn is exalted;
his head is in the snows of heaven,
with the god there is abounding water." (KTU 1.101 R 1-7)


"The voice of Yahweh over the waters,
Yahweh over the multitudinous waters,
The voice of Yahweh in power,
The voice of Yahweh in splendor.
The voice of Yahweh shatters the cedars,
Yahweh shatters the cedars of Lebanon,
making Lebanon leap like a calf,
Sirion like a young wild bull.
The voice of Yahweh sharpens lightning shafts,
The voice of Yahweh sets the wilderness shaking.
Yahweh shakes the wilderness of Kadesh.
The voice of Yahweh sets the terebinths shuddering,
stripping the forests bare.
The god of glory thunders,
In his palace everything cries, 'Glory!'
Yahweh sat enthroned on the Flood,
Yahweh sits enthroned as king forever." (Psalm 29:3-10)
[Edited 12/8/08 6:41am]
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"-Dr Seuss

Pain is something to carry, like a radio...You should stand up for your right to feel your pain- Jim Morrison
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Reply #6 posted 12/08/08 6:47am

XxAxX

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razor said:

jimmyjam67 said:

The halo around the head of Jesus and saints (in art) is really the pagan symbole for the sun?



Pagans worship the Sun as God, is that right?


Huge swaths of christain symbology, celebrations, stories etc are taken from paganism and many other pre-existing belief structures. Very little of christianity can be said to be original..



very true nod
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Reply #7 posted 12/08/08 6:59am

byronic

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The sins of Christianity go far deeper than simple theft. After they stole our symbols and holy days, they then systematically murdered every faithful follower of the old gods they could find. Their blood is on the hands of every christian alive today.
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Reply #8 posted 12/08/08 7:13am

mdiver

byronic said:

The sins of Christianity go far deeper than simple theft. After they stole our symbols and holy days, they then systematically murdered every faithful follower of the old gods they could find. Their blood is on the hands of every christian alive today.


How do you work that out? there are denominations that have never and would never subscribe or support that action or those actions? How is their guilt for wrong doing on their hands?

if my grandfather murdered a man is his blood on my hands also?
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Reply #9 posted 12/08/08 7:56am

razor

mdiver said:

byronic said:

The sins of Christianity go far deeper than simple theft. After they stole our symbols and holy days, they then systematically murdered every faithful follower of the old gods they could find. Their blood is on the hands of every christian alive today.


How do you work that out? there are denominations that have never and would never subscribe or support that action or those actions? How is their guilt for wrong doing on their hands?

if my grandfather murdered a man is his blood on my hands also?


I largely agree with mdiver here, in that the statement above is far too sweeping and all encompassing. However..

To use your analogy mdiver, had your grandfather murdered in order to gain riches, and you knew this but continued to live off of those riches, one could argue you are still culpable in some form. In the context of christianity, one could argue that the insitution of the church, who murdered and threatened so many in order to gain the wealth it enjoys today, holds some passed down culpability for this. That's a lot different than saying any and all christians have blood on their hands though..
"He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; and he that dares not reason is a slave." - William Drummond
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Reply #10 posted 12/08/08 8:05am

mdiver

razor said:

mdiver said:



How do you work that out? there are denominations that have never and would never subscribe or support that action or those actions? How is their guilt for wrong doing on their hands?

if my grandfather murdered a man is his blood on my hands also?


I largely agree with mdiver here, in that the statement above is far too sweeping and all encompassing. However..

To use your analogy mdiver, had your grandfather murdered in order to gain riches, and you knew this but continued to live off of those riches, one could argue you are still culpable in some form. In the context of christianity, one could argue that the insitution of the church, who murdered and threatened so many in order to gain the wealth it enjoys today, holds some passed down culpability for this. That's a lot different than saying any and all christians have blood on their hands though..


You made the point far more eloquently than i did but yes that is what the core meaning was
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Reply #11 posted 12/08/08 9:18am

Lammastide

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Halos and aureolae (full-body halos) are pervasive in ancient religious, mythological and heroic art from all over the Old World at least. (confuse Actually, I know of no pre-European examples of halos in the art of the Americas off the top of my head, but I'm gonna guess they exist.)

In lieu of the ring halos that most of us think of, full-on discs often did represent some association of a deity with the sun or some celestial body, as with the Egyptian Ra or the Greek Helios; but not always. Neptune, depicted here with a halo, was a Roman marine god, for example:


Elsewhere, Moses' face was said to shine after God revealed Godself to the prophet on Mt. Sinai (Exodus 34:29). Trojan War heroes were said to exude some otherworldy blaze on the battlefield in the Iliad. (18.203-38)

Aureolae and both disc and ring halos were depicted on all sorts of favored personalities for centuries until stylistic changes in art saw them wane. Generally, they just represented divine glory, or grace or holiness set upon a virtuous mortal. Such a manifestation of aura was exclusive to no tradition in the ancient world... so language that Christians would "steal" the motif is a bit unnecessarily couched, IMO.
[Edited 12/8/08 9:37am]
"Be excellent to each other." -Bill and Ted
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Reply #12 posted 12/08/08 9:26am

mdiver

Lammastide said:

Halos and aureolae (full-body halos) are pervasive in ancient religious, mythological and heroic art from all over the Old World at least. (confuse Actually, I know of no pre-European examples of halos in the art of the Americas off the top of my head, but I'm gonna guess they exist.)

In lieu of the ring halos that most of us think of, full-on discs often did represent some association of a deity with the sun or some celestial body, as with the Egyptian Ra or the Greek Helios; but not always. Neptune, depicted here with a halo, was a Roman marine god, for example:


Both discs and ring halos were depicted on all sorts of favored personalities for centuries until stylistic changes in art saw them wane.

Elsewhere, Moses' face was said to shine after God revealed Himself to the prophet on Mt. Sinai (Exodus 34:29). Likewise, Trojan War heroes were said to exude some otherworldy blaze on the battlefield in the Iliad. (18.203-38)

Generally, a halo just represented divine glory, or grace or holiness set upon a virtuous mortal. Such a manifestation of aura was exclusive to no tradition in the ancient world... so language that Christians would "steal" the motif is a bit unnecessarily couched, IMO.
[Edited 12/8/08 9:23am]



I think you will find that is a posh word for a nipple wink
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Reply #13 posted 12/08/08 9:32am

Lammastide

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mdiver said:

Lammastide said:

Halos and aureolae (full-body halos) are pervasive in ancient religious, mythological and heroic art from all over the Old World at least. (confuse Actually, I know of no pre-European examples of halos in the art of the Americas off the top of my head, but I'm gonna guess they exist.)

In lieu of the ring halos that most of us think of, full-on discs often did represent some association of a deity with the sun or some celestial body, as with the Egyptian Ra or the Greek Helios; but not always. Neptune, depicted here with a halo, was a Roman marine god, for example:


Both discs and ring halos were depicted on all sorts of favored personalities for centuries until stylistic changes in art saw them wane.

Elsewhere, Moses' face was said to shine after God revealed Himself to the prophet on Mt. Sinai (Exodus 34:29). Likewise, Trojan War heroes were said to exude some otherworldy blaze on the battlefield in the Iliad. (18.203-38)

Generally, a halo just represented divine glory, or grace or holiness set upon a virtuous mortal. Such a manifestation of aura was exclusive to no tradition in the ancient world... so language that Christians would "steal" the motif is a bit unnecessarily couched, IMO.
[Edited 12/8/08 9:23am]



I think you will find that is a posh word for a nipple wink

Nah... just the cute little ring of glory God fixed around it. lol
[Edited 12/8/08 9:39am]
"Be excellent to each other." -Bill and Ted
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Reply #14 posted 12/08/08 9:42am

Lammastide

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jimmyjam67 said:

T
Pagans worship the Sun as God, is that right?

No. Adherents to some traditions would worship the sun as a god, but not all. The countless traditions we've come to know as "pagan" are quite diverse.
"Be excellent to each other." -Bill and Ted
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Reply #15 posted 12/08/08 9:43am

mdiver

Lammastide said:

mdiver said:




I think you will find that is a posh word for a nipple wink

Nah... just the cute little ring of glory God fixed around it. lol
[Edited 12/8/08 9:39am]


Ohhh ring of glory, gonna try that one later wink
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Reply #16 posted 12/08/08 9:45am

Tremolina

Well... "steal" is a bit harsh. It's not like pagan beliefs can't use these symbols anymore.

More like borrowed a lot. Just like all religions and traditions , "pagan" or otherwise do.

One reason to take over symbols was to integrate pagan traditions with christian belief. It's easier to convert that way.
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Reply #17 posted 12/08/08 9:47am

Tremolina

byronic said:

The sins of Christianity go far deeper than simple theft. After they stole our symbols and holy days, they then systematically murdered every faithful follower of the old gods they could find. Their blood is on the hands of every christian alive today.

Nice. It's still "us" vs. "them" after 2000 fucking years. Can you generalise just a little bit futher please?

OK fine Christiniaty's history is full of hideous crimes. Let's not dispute that fact.

But what about the pagan's?
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Reply #18 posted 12/08/08 9:50am

ehuffnsd

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creative borrowing
You CANNOT use the name of God, or religion, to justify acts of violence, to hurt, to hate, to discriminate- Madonna
authentic power is service- Pope Francis
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Reply #19 posted 12/08/08 9:51am

ehuffnsd

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mdiver said:

byronic said:

The sins of Christianity go far deeper than simple theft. After they stole our symbols and holy days, they then systematically murdered every faithful follower of the old gods they could find. Their blood is on the hands of every christian alive today.


How do you work that out? there are denominations that have never and would never subscribe or support that action or those actions? How is their guilt for wrong doing on their hands?

if my grandfather murdered a man is his blood on my hands also?

7 generations.
You CANNOT use the name of God, or religion, to justify acts of violence, to hurt, to hate, to discriminate- Madonna
authentic power is service- Pope Francis
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Reply #20 posted 12/08/08 9:51am

Tremolina

razor said:

mdiver said:



How do you work that out? there are denominations that have never and would never subscribe or support that action or those actions? How is their guilt for wrong doing on their hands?

if my grandfather murdered a man is his blood on my hands also?


I largely agree with mdiver here, in that the statement above is far too sweeping and all encompassing. However..

To use your analogy mdiver, had your grandfather murdered in order to gain riches, and you knew this but continued to live off of those riches, one could argue you are still culpable in some form. In the context of christianity, one could argue that the insitution of the church, who murdered and threatened so many in order to gain the wealth it enjoys today, holds some passed down culpability for this. That's a lot different than saying any and all christians have blood on their hands though..


That's indeed a lot different.
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Reply #21 posted 12/08/08 10:41am

mdiver

ehuffnsd said:

mdiver said:



How do you work that out? there are denominations that have never and would never subscribe or support that action or those actions? How is their guilt for wrong doing on their hands?

if my grandfather murdered a man is his blood on my hands also?

7 generations.


Pretty much every man woman and child on earth should be doing time then
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Reply #22 posted 12/08/08 10:47am

Mach

ehuffnsd said:

creative borrowing


creative persuasive borrowng


wink
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Reply #23 posted 12/08/08 10:50am

Colyr

Yes, research the origins of the holidays and why they became "christian".
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Reply #24 posted 12/08/08 10:50am

ehuffnsd

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Mach said:

ehuffnsd said:

creative borrowing


creative persuasive borrowng


wink

something like that
You CANNOT use the name of God, or religion, to justify acts of violence, to hurt, to hate, to discriminate- Madonna
authentic power is service- Pope Francis
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Reply #25 posted 12/08/08 10:53am

Mach

ehuffnsd said:

Mach said:



creative persuasive borrowng


wink

something like that


hug
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Reply #26 posted 12/08/08 4:34pm

IAmMyFather

to add to the question ... i wonder.

if christianity had stolen from paganism could it also be possible that the name of tribes "christians" and all its does, have been stolen, and even further stolen from something that hadn't even existed yet?" possibley until now. and the true heirs of that tribe have come to claim its victory.


does that make sence?
[Edited 12/8/08 16:36pm]
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Reply #27 posted 12/08/08 5:35pm

LizaWoman08

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jimmyjam67 said:

The halo around the head of Jesus and saints (in art) is really the pagan symbole for the sun?



Pagans worship the Sun as God, is that right?


Yes it did
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Reply #28 posted 12/08/08 6:21pm

benni

I'm still trying to figure out how an artists' interpretation (the halo) can be considered to be the fault of Christianity?
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Reply #29 posted 12/08/08 7:40pm

Colyr

benni said:

I'm still trying to figure out how an artists' interpretation (the halo) can be considered to be the fault of Christianity?


I think the thread author was referring to the way Christianity deifies these symbols. I may be wrong tho.
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