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Intellectual Knowledge vs. Experiential Knowledge I read a quote this morning, which began this line of thinking. So many people say that to know God, one must read the Bible, as though that is the only way to know God. The quote was this:
What one thinks or reads is always qualified by the preposition "of,"or "about," and does not give us the thing itself. Not mere talk about water, nor the mere sight of a spring, but an actual mouthful of it gives the thirsty complete satisfaction.
--D. T. Suzuki, Essays in Zen Buddhism So do you think intellectual knowledge is enough to know God, or must one have experiential knowledge to truly know God (or anyone for that matter)? The quote also caused me to think about how people pray to God; their minds always busy, chattering, carrying on, and how most people never sit in silence to "listen to" God. So, what do you think? Intellectual knowledge vs. experiential knowledge, which truly allows you to KNOW? And since most people seem to only use intellectual knowledge (that which they read from a book) to attempt to understand God, could this then be the basis for "belief" (which imo, implies some doubt ~ because you "believe" it to be true, but are not certain that it is)? ing one day about racial prejudice, Paramahansa Yogananda said, "God is not pleased to be insulted when He wears His dark suits." | |
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I'm curious as to what you mean by "experiential" knowledge when it comes to god? How does one gain experience with god? surely all those of faith have only what you define as "intellectual" knowledge? "It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him"
Abraham Lincoln | |
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razor said: I'm curious as to what you mean by "experiential" knowledge when it comes to god? How does one gain experience with god? surely all those of faith have only what you define as "intellectual" knowledge?
[Edited 9/19/08 5:51am] Most people only choose intellectual knowledge. What I mean by "experiential" knowledge, is an inner experience. Most Christians (outside of the JW faith) believe God to be omnipresent, present in everything, everywhere, including themselves. However, most Christians do not delve beyond belief to attempt to reach this "omnipresent" being. Through meditation, one can experience the Divine, by "dying to themselves", by dissolving all beliefs, thoughts, ideas, concepts, etc., and just being. And it is an experience. ing one day about racial prejudice, Paramahansa Yogananda said, "God is not pleased to be insulted when He wears His dark suits." | |
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I wanted to add, that it is this very intellectual knowledge they hold, the beliefs that surround it, which causes them to feel separate from God. This feeling of separation, keeps them from striving to reach any other experience that might be had with God (for most people). There are those that are not satisfied with only intellectual knowledge, that will finally say "Okay God! Show yourself!" and will sit for hours contemplating the meaning of life, creation, etc., only to reach a state of non-thought and begin to experience things in a way they never knew was possible. ing one day about racial prejudice, Paramahansa Yogananda said, "God is not pleased to be insulted when He wears His dark suits." | |
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LittleRedCorvette said: razor said: I'm curious as to what you mean by "experiential" knowledge when it comes to god? How does one gain experience with god? surely all those of faith have only what you define as "intellectual" knowledge?
[Edited 9/19/08 5:51am] Most people only choose intellectual knowledge. What I mean by "experiential" knowledge, is an inner experience. Most Christians (outside of the JW faith) believe God to be omnipresent, present in everything, everywhere, including themselves. However, most Christians do not delve beyond belief to attempt to reach this "omnipresent" being. Through meditation, one can experience the Divine, by "dying to themselves", by dissolving all beliefs, thoughts, ideas, concepts, etc., and just being. And it is an experience. Good explaination, thanks. At this point, I shall respectfully withdraw from the thread as I'm not sure an aethist like myself can add much to what will clearly be a discussion amongst those with various faiths (apart from to spoil it!)  "It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him"
Abraham Lincoln | |
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razor said: LittleRedCorvette said: Most people only choose intellectual knowledge. What I mean by "experiential" knowledge, is an inner experience. Most Christians (outside of the JW faith) believe God to be omnipresent, present in everything, everywhere, including themselves. However, most Christians do not delve beyond belief to attempt to reach this "omnipresent" being. Through meditation, one can experience the Divine, by "dying to themselves", by dissolving all beliefs, thoughts, ideas, concepts, etc., and just being. And it is an experience. Good explaination, thanks. At this point, I shall respectfully withdraw from the thread as I'm not sure an aethist like myself can add much to what will clearly be a discussion amongst those with various faiths (apart from to spoil it!) LOL! Hey even atheists have great ideas!  And perhaps, as an atheist, you can add some logic and reason to the discussion. I actually hope you will join in razor. I have always felt that we can learn from everyone, if we keep an open mind. So this "atheist" may be able to teach this "Buddhist" a few things.  ing one day about racial prejudice, Paramahansa Yogananda said, "God is not pleased to be insulted when He wears His dark suits." | |
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LittleRedCorvette said: razor said: Good explaination, thanks. At this point, I shall respectfully withdraw from the thread as I'm not sure an aethist like myself can add much to what will clearly be a discussion amongst those with various faiths (apart from to spoil it!) LOL! Hey even atheists have great ideas! And perhaps, as an atheist, you can add some logic and reason to the discussion. I actually hope you will join in razor. I have always felt that we can learn from everyone, if we keep an open mind. So this "atheist" may be able to teach this "Buddhist" a few things. In which case, I shall hang around. I'm blaming you though if people start shouting at me for being a troll! "It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him"
Abraham Lincoln | |
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razor said: LittleRedCorvette said: LOL! Hey even atheists have great ideas! And perhaps, as an atheist, you can add some logic and reason to the discussion. I actually hope you will join in razor. I have always felt that we can learn from everyone, if we keep an open mind. So this "atheist" may be able to teach this "Buddhist" a few things. In which case, I shall hang around. I'm blaming you though if people start shouting at me for being a troll! LOL! Okay, I'll accept all blame for your trollingness (on this thread only!)  ing one day about racial prejudice, Paramahansa Yogananda said, "God is not pleased to be insulted when He wears His dark suits." | |
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Just wanted to add: This doesn't necessarily involve thoughts on God only. One could argue, that anything can't be known without experiential knowledge, or by intellectual knowledge only. Even in science, there are cases where hypotheses are formed, without a way of actually proving it, and theories that are formed are then accepted. (For instance, there is no direct way of experiencing conditions in other galaxies, etc., but scientists can extrapolate what conditions may exist from observing our own galaxy.) However, it can't be "known" without an actual experience of it, and is only intellectual knowledge until experienced. ing one day about racial prejudice, Paramahansa Yogananda said, "God is not pleased to be insulted when He wears His dark suits." | |
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LittleRedCorvette said: Just wanted to add: This doesn't necessarily involve thoughts on God only. One could argue, that anything can't be known without experiential knowledge, or by intellectual knowledge only. Even in science, there are cases where hypotheses are formed, without a way of actually proving it, and theories that are formed are then accepted. (For instance, there is no direct way of experiencing conditions in other galaxies, etc., but scientists can extrapolate what conditions may exist from observing our own galaxy.) However, it can't be "known" without an actual experience of it, and is only intellectual knowledge until experienced.
In the broader sense, i think one must always conclude that a combination of intellectual knowledge and experience is superior to either one alone. Who would you choose to defend you, the Lawyer fresh from university, or the one with the degree and 20 years experience? Intellectual knowledge is a great (and often imperative) start to understanding a subject, but in most cases the subtleties can not be understood without exposure to how the subject works, or is understood, in practise. Intellectual knowledge alone will always lack the "reality" of how a theory is put into practise and its associated real life constraints. Experience will certain never weaken knowedge... "It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him"
Abraham Lincoln | |
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Knowledge of God? Generally speaking, you aren’t learning much when your lips are moving. | |
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Intellectual knowledge vs. experiential knowledge, which truly allows you to KNOW?
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"Think inside out."  | |
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Mach said: Intellectual knowledge vs. experiential knowledge, which truly allows you to KNOW?
An investment in a balance of both really 
Whether you want to know God/Goddess, Great Spirit, The higher self, making rhubarb pie, building a house and a thousand other things in your lifetime. It really takes both  
We all should know that diversity makes for a rich tapestry, and we must understand that all the threads of the tapestry are equal in value no matter what their color. Maya Angelou http://www.myspace.com/butterfli25 | |
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Hi LRC,
Join my Astrology Forum: http://scorpioland.ning.com/
Read my blog: http://synthia-rose.blogs...lysis.html | |
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SynthiaRose said: Hi LRC,
This is very interesting and I agree with a lot of it.I'm 36 now but when I was in my early 20s, I faced this dilemma and decided that experiential knowledge was going to be my guide for living -- in spirituality and beyond. I actually was so self-confident in that belief that I suggested to peers that my own journals recording my interactions with the Divine were every bit as valid as the Bible. I know! Cocky. Dangerous. But I've always believed humans are hardwired with the antennae to know and perceive God and that we don't need a summary of the Divine handed down to us in books or from the pulpit. My beliefs then were very controversial. But I've grown tremendously from that approach. As one would expect, that philosophy led me away from organized religion to a sort of free form spirituality that I love very much and that many people could not handle because they would be too nervous to be self-reliant ...meeting God in Nature, in coincidence, in daily intersections with people, in spontaneous revelation, etc. But that's SOOO works for me. I don't need God neatly tied up in a bow and given to me. As a 20-something person trying to establish my own personal ethics, I even decided that I would accept nothing as sin until I felt it deep in my marrow. Killing people. Stealing -- I believed those were sins and didn't challenge them. But other stuff, like so-called "fornication" or "masturbation" I refused to consider sins at all until my experience proved them to be destructive. I found self-pleasure evolved to a very spiritual experience -- but of course I'm a Scorpio (lol) and well sex for us is always otherworldly whether physical or mental, with ourselves or in an orgy. As for sex outside commitment ... I did eventually find that eroded my spirit and emotions and later compromised that such was sin for me...it was a spiritual violation that hurt all parties. The older I get the more I find sex sacred and would not cheapen it with one-night stands or casual sex. But not because a book or pastor told me that. The lesson is so much more powerful because of my experience. So what if I got hurt. This is LIFE. I'm not looking to avoid pain, I'm looking for an exchange with the Universe that is meaningful. Intelletual knowledge is the most superficial knowledge there is. Your mind can know something, but until your very flesh, and emotions, and soul have contorted in joy or pain to confirm wisdom, it's nothing. | |
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Real knowledge and understanding doesn't have a damn thing to do with god.
"...I will go to the animal shelter and get you a kitty cat. I will let you fall in love...with that kitty cat. And then on some dark, cold night I will steal away into your home...and punch you in the face!" | |
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I know nothing of God.
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razor said: LittleRedCorvette said: Just wanted to add: This doesn't necessarily involve thoughts on God only. One could argue, that anything can't be known without experiential knowledge, or by intellectual knowledge only. Even in science, there are cases where hypotheses are formed, without a way of actually proving it, and theories that are formed are then accepted. (For instance, there is no direct way of experiencing conditions in other galaxies, etc., but scientists can extrapolate what conditions may exist from observing our own galaxy.) However, it can't be "known" without an actual experience of it, and is only intellectual knowledge until experienced.
In the broader sense, i think one must always conclude that a combination of intellectual knowledge and experience is superior to either one alone. Who would you choose to defend you, the Lawyer fresh from university, or the one with the degree and 20 years experience? Intellectual knowledge is a great (and often imperative) start to understanding a subject, but in most cases the subtleties can not be understood without exposure to how the subject works, or is understood, in practise. Intellectual knowledge alone will always lack the "reality" of how a theory is put into practise and its associated real life constraints. Experience will certain never weaken knowedge... I have always felt that intellectual knowledge was an imperative start to any experiential knowledge, however, I've since changed that thinking. While yes, there are situations in which I would want someone to perform some action that has the intellectual base combined with experiential knowledge, such as a brain surgeon or lawyer, etc. There are situations in which intellectual knowledge cannot enhance, or even prepare one for, experiential knowledge. For instance, you can read a book about an orange. You can read the description of what an orange is (or someone can tell you). You can read the description of how the skin feels in your hand as opposed to the meat of the orange, how the orange smells as your fingers tear into the skin to peel it, how it tastes, how it feels as the juice drips down your chin, but until you actually pick up an orange, peel the orange, smell the orange, and taste the orange, the intellectual aspect that you've gained from talking with someone or reading about it, is only theory and in no way prepares you for the actual experience. The same with love. You can read every love poem, talk with people who are in love, watch two that are in love with each other, but it in no way prepares you for the actual experience of being in love. And I've found this to be true with most experiences in life.  *An act of love that fails is just as much a part of the divine life as an act of love that succeeds, for love is measured by fullness, not by reception.* - *Love is never lost. If not reciprocated, it will flow back and soften and purify the heart.* | |
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Slave2daGroove said: Knowledge of God?
Knowledge of God from the Bible? x 10
Common sense vs. Book Smart?  *Insert me doing a raspberry here*  *An act of love that fails is just as much a part of the divine life as an act of love that succeeds, for love is measured by fullness, not by reception.* - *Love is never lost. If not reciprocated, it will flow back and soften and purify the heart.* | |
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Mach said: Intellectual knowledge vs. experiential knowledge, which truly allows you to KNOW?
An investment in a balance of both really
Whether you want to know God/Goddess, Great Spirit, The higher self, making rhubarb pie, building a house and a thousand other things in your lifetime. It really takes both But what of Savants Mach? What of the person with no intellectual knowledge of the Divine, seeing a bird flying through the sky and suddenly experiencing Enlightenment? What of an infant suddenly discovering how to sit up, crawl, walk? None of these have intellectual knowledge, but suddenly are able to do something and have gained that exeriential knowledge without having the intellectual knowledge as a building base. Watching my children in the first 2 years of their life, the things they learned without having any intellectual knowledge to build upon, was an amazing experience for me. *An act of love that fails is just as much a part of the divine life as an act of love that succeeds, for love is measured by fullness, not by reception.* - *Love is never lost. If not reciprocated, it will flow back and soften and purify the heart.* | |
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SynthiaRose said: Hi LRC,
I'm 36 now but when I was in my early 20s, I faced this dilemma and decided that experiential knowledge was going to be my guide for living -- in spirituality and beyond. I actually was so self-confident in that belief that I suggested to peers that my own journals recording my interactions with the Divine were every bit as valid as the Bible. I know! Cocky. Dangerous. But I've always believed humans are hardwired with the antennae to know and perceive God and that we don't need a summary of the Divine handed down to us in books or from the pulpit. My beliefs then were very controversial. But I've grown tremendously from that approach. As one would expect, that philosophy led me away from organized religion to a sort of free form spirituality that I love very much and that many people could not handle because they would be too nervous to be self-reliant ...meeting God in Nature, in coincidence, in daily intersections with people, in spontaneous revelation, etc. But that's SOOO works for me. I don't need God neatly tied up in a bow and given to me. As a 20-something person trying to establish my own personal ethics, I even decided that I would accept nothing as sin until I felt it deep in my marrow. Killing people. Stealing -- I believed those were sins and didn't challenge them. But other stuff, like so-called "fornication" or "masturbation" I refused to consider sins at all until my experience proved them to be destructive. I found self-pleasure evolved to a very spiritual experience -- but of course I'm a Scorpio (lol) and well sex for us is always otherworldly whether physical or mental, with ourselves or in an orgy. As for sex outside commitment ... I did eventually find that eroded my spirit and emotions and later compromised that such was sin for me...it was a spiritual violation that hurt all parties. The older I get the more I find sex sacred and would not cheapen it with one-night stands or casual sex. But not because a book or pastor told me that. The lesson is so much more powerful because of my experience. So what if I got hurt. This is LIFE. I'm not looking to avoid pain, I'm looking for an exchange with the Universe that is meaningful. Intelletual knowledge is the most superficial knowledge there is. Your mind can know something, but until your very flesh, and emotions, and soul have contorted in joy or pain to confirm wisdom, it's nothing.  I'm a scorpio too.
The part I bolded is absolutely beautiful SynthiaRose. I've always felt deeply and experienced life as fully as I can, because experience is such a necessary part of growing. I've gotten the intellectual knowledge, went to college/grad school, and have determined that the intellectual knowledge only gives me a theory to build upon, but getting out in the real world and doing it, gives me the very knowledge that aids the most in performing my job. The theories I gained from school, remain theories. The experience I gained from doing my job, are real. *An act of love that fails is just as much a part of the divine life as an act of love that succeeds, for love is measured by fullness, not by reception.* - *Love is never lost. If not reciprocated, it will flow back and soften and purify the heart.* | |
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lazycrockett said: Real knowledge and understanding doesn't have a damn thing to do with god.
cut the cord. fuck its 2008. Nothing is coming to save "you". [Edited 9/19/08 23:10pm] Intellectual knowledge vs. Experiential knowledge doesn't necessarily have to be about God. Have anything to add regarding knowledge in life? *An act of love that fails is just as much a part of the divine life as an act of love that succeeds, for love is measured by fullness, not by reception.* - *Love is never lost. If not reciprocated, it will flow back and soften and purify the heart.* | |
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Imago said: I know nothing of God.
But the Buddha was adament on insisting that any creature could experience 'enlightenment' because Nirvana was not an intellectual experience. It's very much like being in love. You could read entire essays about being in love, skillfully typed out, painstakingly concise--and yet know nothing about the experience until you've felt it yourself. When we watch couples in real life, or on screen, and we get that sort of longing or aching feeling, NOTHING about that experience is thought out or intellectual. I would think religious experiences aren't either. And how could anyone reason out intellectually such a preposterous notion as a creator? Wow, Imago, what a great response! And I agree. No amount of intellectual knowledge can prepare one for the actual experience. *An act of love that fails is just as much a part of the divine life as an act of love that succeeds, for love is measured by fullness, not by reception.* - *Love is never lost. If not reciprocated, it will flow back and soften and purify the heart.* | |
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Imago said: When we watch couples in real life, or on screen, and we get that sort of longing or aching feeling, NOTHING about that experience is thought out or intellectual. I would think religious experiences aren't either.
I totally disagree. I get what you're saying, and I agree that there's something about that experience that can't be reduced to rational thought, intellectual ideas, etc, and seems pre-social, maybe even 'natural', but at the same time just because the intellectual bit doesn't go 'all the way down' it doesn't mean it's not present at all. Rather, I'd say both are intertwined. What I guess I'm saying is, even if we desire and have other similar feelings 'naturally', there's still the question of why we desire this and not that, and I think that bit's conditioned by all sorts of 'rules' learnt through culture, community, family, etc. We internalise all kinds of rules and then attach our deep, affective feelings to those - e.g. I might learn that it's ok to desire a woman but not another man, so I attach my longing to those images of heterosexual rather than homosexual couples; and the longing that I feel might further connect to a whole load of interrelated ideas (e.g. I want to be married, with two kids, and a house in the suburbs, etc). Thinking about it from the flip-side of desire--repulsion--might be clearer: it's natural to feel repulsion, but why an image of two men kissing might be what prompts me to feel that repulsion still has to be explained - and there all the social/cultural 'rules', intellectual ideas, etc, come into play. It's very much like being in love. You could read entire essays about being in love, skillfully typed out, painstakingly concise--and yet know nothing about the experience until you've felt it yourself.
I quite liked a bit I read from Terry Eagleton's review of Richard Dawkins about the relationship between faith and rationality, which sort of chimes with what I'm trying to say about these two areas of knowledged being intertwined: "[F]aith, rather like love, must involve factual knowledge, [but] it is not reducible to it. For my claim to love you to be coherent, I must be able to explain what it is about you that justifies it; but my bank manager might agree with my dewy-eyed description of you without being in love with you himself." | |
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benni said: Mach said: Intellectual knowledge vs. experiential knowledge, which truly allows you to KNOW?
An investment in a balance of both really
Whether you want to know God/Goddess, Great Spirit, The higher self, making rhubarb pie, building a house and a thousand other things in your lifetime. It really takes both But what of Savants Mach? What of the person with no intellectual knowledge of the Divine, seeing a bird flying through the sky and suddenly experiencing Enlightenment? What of an infant suddenly discovering how to sit up, crawl, walk? None of these have intellectual knowledge, but suddenly are able to do something and have gained that exeriential knowledge without having the intellectual knowledge as a building base. Watching my children in the first 2 years of their life, the things they learned without having any intellectual knowledge to build upon, was an amazing experience for me. Oh understood I have 4 children and 4 grands
The question was though Intellectual knowledge vs. experiential knowledge, which truly allows you to KNOW? so I answered as if "you" was me - not as if it was a general "you" meaning everyone
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I usually don't like to get involve in religious discussions here, but this seem like an interesting question, So I will try to explain it the best way I can from how I see it without straying. I'm not a very religious person, but for me a higher power exists which I refer to as "God". I am more of a spiritual person than religious. I don't attend church services, although I have in the past. I don't belong to any particular domination other than the fact that I was baptized as a "Methodist" and have attended Methodist churches in the past.
Education, the greatest weapon
--- To know about humans, you first have to learn where they came from... http://www.youtube.com/wa...V6A8oGtPc4 http://www.youtube.com/wa...04FKo3adw8 | |
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Mach said: benni said: But what of Savants Mach? What of the person with no intellectual knowledge of the Divine, seeing a bird flying through the sky and suddenly experiencing Enlightenment? What of an infant suddenly discovering how to sit up, crawl, walk? None of these have intellectual knowledge, but suddenly are able to do something and have gained that exeriential knowledge without having the intellectual knowledge as a building base. Watching my children in the first 2 years of their life, the things they learned without having any intellectual knowledge to build upon, was an amazing experience for me. Oh understood I have 4 children and 4 grands
The question was though Intellectual knowledge vs. experiential knowledge, which truly allows you to KNOW? so I answered as if "you" was me - not as if it was a general "you" meaning everyone
 *An act of love that fails is just as much a part of the divine life as an act of love that succeeds, for love is measured by fullness, not by reception.* - *Love is never lost. If not reciprocated, it will flow back and soften and purify the heart.* | |
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2elijah said: I usually don't like to get involve in religious discussions here, but this seem like an interesting question, So I will try to explain it the best way I can from how I see it without straying. I'm not a very religious person, but for me a higher power exists which I refer to as "God". I am more of a spiritual person than religious. I don't attend church services, although I have in the past. I don't belong to any particular domination other than the fact that I was baptized as a "Methodist" and have attended Methodist churches in the past.
I have never read the entire bible, just portions of it. I don't feel that reading the bible “alone” will help one know how to be a true Christian or find the “God-like” presence within themselves in reaching our highest level of self, without going through life experiences (experimental) , and how we interact with other humans. In my opinion, how we treat others during our lifetime, is our biggest test on calling oneself a true Christian or real human being for that matter by knowing, love, compassion and kindness. Also, to me, the bible is a “manual” of life and the stories (Matthew, John, etc.) within the bible are just used as examples of various life situations, that as humans many of us will experience in some form of another, i.e., (how we treat others, adultery, how we handle authority, obeying our parents, evil vs. good, love, hate, discipline, suicide, decision-making, alcoholism, promiscuity, forgiveness, etc.). How we handle these situations is our test. These are all stories within the bible of what some of the people within it experienced, and those who stayed on the path to being God-like or Christians through the teachings of Christ, and those who didn’t seem to make it “there” so to speak. Not everyone believes a God presence exists, but in my opinion, as one who does, (intellectually) the bible is a manual that teaches us how to be Christians, better human beings or God-like for that matter, depending on your beliefs of a higher presence, but it is through our life experiences (experimental) that will be the result of whether we have learned how to be true Christians, true human beings to its fullest extent or God-like for that matter. Just my 2 cents.
[Edited 9/20/08 8:26am] Thanks 2elijah for adding your thoughts to thread. It's interesting to me that experiential knowledge always comes before intellectual knowledge. If we look at the way we learn, really learn, as a babe, we learn through experience, through trial and error, through experiencing something to the fullest without any preconceived ideas about what that something is. We simply experience. I read something one time that stated that we learn more in the first 3 years of our life, than we learn throughout the rest of our life. And it is those first 3 years in which we simply experience life. *An act of love that fails is just as much a part of the divine life as an act of love that succeeds, for love is measured by fullness, not by reception.* - *Love is never lost. If not reciprocated, it will flow back and soften and purify the heart.* | |
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benni said: Mach said: Oh understood I have 4 children and 4 grands
The question was though Intellectual knowledge vs. experiential knowledge, which truly allows you to KNOW? so I answered as if "you" was me - not as if it was a general "you" meaning everyone
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