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Thread started 09/05/08 3:57am

Dsoul

Scientists re-create The Big Bang's conditions

The Big Question: Is our understanding of the Universe about to be transformed?

By Steve Connor, Science Editor
Friday, 5 September 2008

Why are we asking this now?

Next Wednesday the biggest machine and international scientific experiment ever built will be switched on. Called the Large Hadron Collider (LHC), it is a giant $10bn "atom smasher" that has been constructed at the European centre for nuclear research (Cern) in Geneva.

It consists of an underground circular tunnel 27 kilometres in circumference, which is about the size of the Circle Line on the London Underground. At various points along the tunnel, four massive instruments have been positioned to act as sub-atomic microscopes for analysing the extremely high-energy collisions that will occur between two opposing beams of protons, the atomic nuclei of hydrogen atoms. The aim of the experiment is to understand the fundamental forces of nature and the sub-atomic particles that compose all matter in the Universe.

Why is it causing such excitement?

Although we have built "atom smashers" before, this one is different in terms of how much energy will be involved. Two beams of protons will be spun in opposite directions within the underground tunnel and will attain speeds just a fraction shy of the speed of light, meaning that they will make about 11,000 laps of the circuit every second.

When they are accelerated in this way to collide head-on with each other, the resulting impact between the two proton beams will generate about seven times the energy of the LHC's nearest rival machine, the Tevatron atom smasher in Batavia, Illinois. The LHC scientists hope to get up to energy levels of 14 teraelectron volts (TeV) and so in the process create conditions that last occurred less than a billionth of a second after the Big Bang, when the Universe was created some 13.7 billion years ago.

What's the point of all this?

In order to understand what things are made of, and the forces that hold them together, it is necessary to break apart the sub-atomic constituents of matter. It is only by breaking apart a proton that scientists are able to see what is going on within this infinitesimally small unit of matter. The answer comes down to even smaller particles, some of which are so small or elusive that they have so far escaped detection. So far we know of 12 subatomic particles and 4 forces, but this is just the start.

More importantly, scientists hope to resolve some of the biggest problems in physics. They hope for instance to one day unify all the disparate forces of nature, from the small-scale nuclear forces within an atomic nucleus to the force of gravity, which acts between planets and galaxies. They call this the "theory of everything" and there is hope that the LHC will make important contributions to our wider understanding of the biggest questions concerning creation, time and the nature of matter.

Isn't it risky to mess around with high-energy collisions?

There are some theorists who believe that the collisions may create "mini" black holes. But even if they do result from the experiment, they will be sub-microscopic in size and disappear within a fraction of second of coming into existence. Few if any sensible scientists believe that these minuscule black holes pose any threat, for instance by merging into a bigger black hole that could swallow up Geneva.

Some Russian scientists have also suggested that it may be possible for the LHC to create the conditions that could in theory allow time travel. They have rather fancifully painted a scenario where future time travellers come back to visit us through the LHC, but, as other theorists have pointed out, such time travellers would have to be atom-sized to pass through the tiny "worm holes" through time and space that the LHC may or may not create.

What exactly will happen when the experiment gets under way?

For the first time, scientists will attempt to put a beam of protons into the tunnel and to accelerate it around the entire circuit. Then, possibly later that day, or certainly in the days to follow, a second beam will be put into the tunnel and accelerated around the same tunnel but in the opposite direction. It is just possible, although unlikely, that the two beams might collide, which will cause the instruments to start registering readings. However, it is only when all the finer adjustments have been made that the two beams will reach the highest energy levels that could result in some very interesting discoveries.

What important findings might emerge?

The most interesting things are almost certainly going to be those that are least expected -- or even totally unpredicted. However, there is one sub-atomic particle that theorists have already predicted to exist.

Formally called the Higgs boson, but nicknamed the "God Particle", it could explain why matter has mass and hence lead to a greater understanding of the force of gravity. At the energy levels of the LHC, it is very likely that the first Higgs boson will be registered. Indeed, Prof Peter Higgs of Edinburgh University is 90 per cent confident that the particle named after him will be discovered by the LHC. How quickly the Higgs is found – assuming it exists – depends on how heavy it is, with a lighter Higgs being harder to detect than a heavier one.

But this is just one of many possible discoveries that the LHC could make. Physicists hope that the machine will also find the mysterious supersymmetry particles that are thought to have been created at the beginning of the Universe. The theory of supersymmetry says that all known particle have a heavier partner, but none has ever been detected. If the LHC finds evidence of supersymmetrical particles, it may have also found the reason why 90 per cent of the mass of the Universe exists as invisible "dark matter".

How difficult was it to build the LHC and its machines?

Very. The 27-km tunnel is aligned to better than a tenth of a millimetre and underground rivers had to be temporarily frozen to permit its construction. The giant magnets used to accelerate the proton beams have to be held together with a force that can resist 500 tons per square metre -– equivalent to one jumbo jet per square metre.

They are supercooled to 1.8 degrees above absolute zero (-273C), making the LHC the coldest place in the known universe, with enough freezing capacity to keep 140,000 domestic fridges at a temperature of -271.2C. The civil and mechanical engineering involved was almost as momentous as the science, which could account for why next week's switch on was originally scheduled for three years ago.

Is such a huge experiment worth it?

Yes...

* We need to know how the Universe is put together to understand our place in it

* The cost is trivial compared with that of not expanding on our existing knowledge

* There have been huge spin-offs from similar experiments, notably the internet

No...

* The science is too distant and abstruse for enough worthwhile benefits to humanity

* Particle physics is less important than, say, medicine and biology

* If scientists have misunderstood the physics there's a risk of creating a black hole

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Reply #1 posted 09/05/08 4:23am

BombSquad

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big bang crap. there is no need to do more research. we have the truth already written in the Bible. now go read that instead.

God didn't give us our wonderfully complex brain to do research, question things or heaven forbid even think independently. no. the brain is there to listen to sermons and remember psalms, sing the National Anthem at baseball games, swallow what your political leaders feed no questions asked, and watch American Idol every now and then. no need for anything beyond that.

Wright | Pfleger 2012
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Reply #2 posted 09/05/08 5:14am

NancyMoonbeam

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WOW !

Cant wait for the results -- hopefuly we wont get 'holed' !

another step into bursting the creation myth too ? .....

"when one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion."
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Reply #3 posted 09/05/08 7:55am

NancyMoonbeam

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Apparantly they are firing her up on wednesday so hold on to your hats !!

"when one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion."
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Reply #4 posted 09/05/08 8:06am

Cloudbuster

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eye

"Shake yer reptile, baby!" stoned
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Reply #5 posted 09/05/08 8:48am

razor

Very exciting times indeed.

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Reply #6 posted 09/05/08 10:55am

morningsong

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See y'all Thursday.

"Behind every successful woman there is an astonished man." star star star star General Ann Dunwoody
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Reply #7 posted 09/05/08 10:57am

Graycap23

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BombSquad said:

big bang crap. there is no need to do more research. we have the truth already written in the Bible. now go read that instead.

God didn't give us our wonderfully complex brain to do research, question things or heaven forbid even think independently. no. the brain is there to listen to sermons and remember psalms, sing the National Anthem at baseball games, swallow what your political leaders feed no questions asked, and watch American Idol every now and then. no need for anything beyond that.

lol..... thumbs up!

If u want some censored shit.......go elsewhere. If u want the TRUTH, come 2 me.
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Reply #8 posted 09/05/08 11:15am

Dsoul

NancyMoonbeam said:

WOW !

Cant wait for the results -- hopefuly we wont get 'holed' !

another step into bursting the creation myth too ? .....


I think understanding the chemical state pre and post big bang is the most we can hope for. The eternal questions of why anything is will torment and evade the human mind til extinction surely. Thus religion steps in and offers a simple "Rest your mind, god did it/it's god's plan" response.

Ultimately creationism can't be disproved as it's last defence is "err okay well god wanted the children in image to finally appear billions of years into creation then", ludicrous but we can't disprove it per se.

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Reply #9 posted 09/08/08 12:30am

BombSquad

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Dsoul said:

Ultimately creationism can't be disproved as it's last defence is "err okay well god wanted the children in image to finally appear billions of years into creation then", ludicrous but we can't disprove it per se.

true. just as we can't disprove Last Thursdayism http://www.last-thursday....hursdayism

still no serious scientist would think Last Thursdaism or Creationism is a sensible or valid scientific theory. quite contrary, exactly the absence of falsifiability is what makes it non scientific http://en.wikipedia.org/w...ifiability

Wright | Pfleger 2012
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Reply #10 posted 09/08/08 12:49am

lazycrockett

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Will this get the rid of that cold spot in my frozen burrito after I microwave it at 4 in the morning?

You Can Not Go Against Nature
Cause When You Do
To Go Against Nature
Is Part Of Nature Too.
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Reply #11 posted 09/08/08 1:57am

foal30

Exciting times indeed.

there was a dag of a cartoon in this mornings rag which had two aliens firing up their version of the LHC, with the date showing 17.5 billion years ago.

interested that time travel made the report.

I think the most interesting "discovery" could be around dark matter. Be nice to see a long posited theory come to some fruition, if you will.

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Reply #12 posted 09/08/08 10:35am

Tremolina

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cool. will be very interesting to see what comes from this.

Just one thing:

Isn't it risky to mess around with high-energy collisions?

There are some theorists who believe that the collisions may create "mini" black holes. But even if they do result from the experiment, they will be sub-microscopic in size and disappear within a fraction of second of coming into existence. Few if any sensible scientists believe that these minuscule black holes pose any threat, for instance by merging into a bigger black hole that could swallow up Geneva.


I just love it when scientists talk about BELIEVING things will happen / not happen and then state facts based purely on that belief.

Hey, we really have no clue what we are doing here, but trust us we - the "sensible scientists" - BELIEVE it will be safe.

And ehhh...IF there are mini black holes created they WILL disappear within a fraction of a second. Really.

How we KNOW that? errr... we don't. We just believe it. We are scientists!! smile

-
[Edited 9/8/08 10:37am]

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Reply #13 posted 09/08/08 10:39am

morningsong

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Well, if there is a mini black hole then all other issues pale drastically in comparison. In fact all our problems would be over. If not, then it'll be life as usual. It would be interesting though to find out something that can move faster than the speed of light, now that would be interesting.

"Behind every successful woman there is an astonished man." star star star star General Ann Dunwoody
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Reply #14 posted 09/08/08 10:42am

rodman2

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[Edited 9/8/08 10:42am]

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Reply #15 posted 09/08/08 11:55am

Dsoul

BombSquad said:

Dsoul said:

Ultimately creationism can't be disproved as it's last defence is "err okay well god wanted the children in image to finally appear billions of years into creation then", ludicrous but we can't disprove it per se.

true. just as we can't disprove Last Thursdayism http://www.last-thursday....hursdayism

still no serious scientist would think Last Thursdaism or Creationism is a sensible or valid scientific theory. quite contrary, exactly the absence of falsifiability is what makes it non scientific http://en.wikipedia.org/w...ifiability


Yep, thats why I called it ludicrous. A ludicrous notion that can and likely will endure.

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Reply #16 posted 09/08/08 11:56am

RenHoek

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rodman2 said:


[Edited 9/8/08 10:42am]


I'm glad you posted that... I LOVE THAT CRAZY SCIENTIST RAP!!!

Everytime I comb my hair, Thoughts of U get in my eyes, U're a sinner, I don't care, I just want your creamy thighs

Get to know me... Ask Ren Hoek anything

A working class hero is something to be...
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Reply #17 posted 09/08/08 2:01pm

morningsong

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"Scientists recreating force equal to Big Bang get life threats"

http://www.hindu.com/theh...081734.htm


disbelief That's so freakin' sad. I mean they've been doing big-bang experiments for a long time now. Granted I can understand the concerns towards another type of weapon. That wouldn't be a good thing. Then again what if they discover the workings of cold fusion, okay, that probably doesn't fit anywhere around that, but heck maybe. Then a lot of crap would come to an end.

"Behind every successful woman there is an astonished man." star star star star General Ann Dunwoody
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Reply #18 posted 09/08/08 11:25pm

morningsong

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rodman2 said:






That rap alone is enough to leave one stunned. eek

"Behind every successful woman there is an astonished man." star star star star General Ann Dunwoody
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Reply #19 posted 09/09/08 12:15am

rodman2

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morningsong said:

rodman2 said:






That rap alone is enough to leave one stunned. eek


Definitely not my kind of music, I turned the volume off and went with the subs, some information there.

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Reply #20 posted 09/09/08 1:17am

morningsong

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rodman2 said:

morningsong said:



That rap alone is enough to leave one stunned. eek


Definitely not my kind of music, I turned the volume off and went with the subs, some information there.


Yeah, I'll stick with the article, that was too funny to turn the sound down but I still have don't have a understanding of what Higgs boson is and I don't think I could get it in short form, but knowing what happened when we split the atom, and how we harnessed the power of that, it's not hard to imagine the what if's splitting the proton. Imagine that power, then again who knows.

"Behind every successful woman there is an astonished man." star star star star General Ann Dunwoody
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Reply #21 posted 09/09/08 9:58am

rodman2

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morningsong said:

rodman2 said:



Definitely not my kind of music, I turned the volume off and went with the subs, some information there.


Yeah, I'll stick with the article, that was too funny to turn the sound down but I still have don't have a understanding of what Higgs boson is and I don't think I could get it in short form, but knowing what happened when we split the atom, and how we harnessed the power of that, it's not hard to imagine the what if's splitting the proton. Imagine that power, then again who knows.


I figure if the information can be used for good or bad, the later will be pursued. A bigger gun always wins out.

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Reply #22 posted 09/09/08 10:51am

morningsong

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rodman2 said:

morningsong said:



Yeah, I'll stick with the article, that was too funny to turn the sound down but I still have don't have a understanding of what Higgs boson is and I don't think I could get it in short form, but knowing what happened when we split the atom, and how we harnessed the power of that, it's not hard to imagine the what if's splitting the proton. Imagine that power, then again who knows.


I figure if the information can be used for good or bad, the later will be pursued. A bigger gun always wins out.



I'm hoping for another powerful energy source, though if a lot of theories that are on the table are proven, then being able to put that kind of energy to use would take a long time. And I hope Stephen Hawkins' theory will finally be proven though that one is very risky, which I think is the biggest uproar.

"Behind every successful woman there is an astonished man." star star star star General Ann Dunwoody
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Reply #23 posted 09/09/08 2:32pm

morningsong

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morningsong said:

rodman2 said:



I figure if the information can be used for good or bad, the later will be pursued. A bigger gun always wins out.



I'm hoping for another powerful energy source, though if a lot of theories that are on the table are proven, then being able to put that kind of energy to use would take a long time. And I hope Stephen Hawkins' theory will finally be proven though that one is very risky, which I think is the biggest uproar.



Okay, I take it back.

Hawking bets CERN mega-machine won't find 'God's Particle'
6 hours ago

LONDON (AFP) — Renowned British astrophysicist Stephen Hawking has bet 100 dollars (70 euros) that a mega-experiment this week will not find an elusive particle seen as a holy grail of cosmic science, he said Tuesday.

In the most complex scientific experiment ever undertaken, the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) will be switched on Wednesday, accelerating sub-atomic particles to nearly the speed of light before smashing them together.

"The LHC will increase the energy at which we can study particle interactions by a factor of four. According to present thinking, this should be enough to discover the Higgs particle," Hawking told BBC radio.

"I think it will be much more exciting if we don't find the Higgs. That will show something is wrong, and we need to think again. I have a bet of 100 dollars that we won't find the Higgs," added Hawking, whose books including "A Brief History of Time" have sought to popularise study of stellar physics.

"Behind every successful woman there is an astonished man." star star star star General Ann Dunwoody
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Reply #24 posted 09/09/08 4:29pm

bboy87

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I'm kinda freaked out about this sad

Bboy87, Timmy84, LittleBlueCorvette, MuthaFunka, phunkdaddy, and Christopher: the revamped nWo!

My finest work...LOL!
http://prince.org/msg/8/267343

Imagination is underrated.......
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Reply #25 posted 09/09/08 5:02pm

morningsong

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Why?

"Behind every successful woman there is an astonished man." star star star star General Ann Dunwoody
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Reply #26 posted 09/09/08 5:15pm

bboy87

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morningsong said:

Why?

because we don't know what could happen and I kinda don't want to know the results sad lol


This is what happens when you have OCD lol

Bboy87, Timmy84, LittleBlueCorvette, MuthaFunka, phunkdaddy, and Christopher: the revamped nWo!

My finest work...LOL!
http://prince.org/msg/8/267343

Imagination is underrated.......
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Reply #27 posted 09/09/08 5:28pm

SUPRMAN

avatar

Tremolina said:

cool. will be very interesting to see what comes from this.

Just one thing:

Isn't it risky to mess around with high-energy collisions?

There are some theorists who believe that the collisions may create "mini" black holes. But even if they do result from the experiment, they will be sub-microscopic in size and disappear within a fraction of second of coming into existence. Few if any sensible scientists believe that these minuscule black holes pose any threat, for instance by merging into a bigger black hole that could swallow up Geneva.


I just love it when scientists talk about BELIEVING things will happen / not happen and then state facts based purely on that belief.

Hey, we really have no clue what we are doing here, but trust us we - the "sensible scientists" - BELIEVE it will be safe.

And ehhh...IF there are mini black holes created they WILL disappear within a fraction of a second. Really.

How we KNOW that? errr... we don't. We just believe it. We are scientists!! smile

-
[Edited 9/8/08 10:37am]


Here a link to a paper that says it's unlikely to happen.
http://www.bnl.gov/rhic/d...report.pdf
It is from 1999 and was supporting the

BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA, 44TH PRESIDENT ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

YES WE CAN! CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN
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Reply #28 posted 09/09/08 5:44pm

morningsong

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lol

It'll be fine. It's just itty bitty particles.

"Behind every successful woman there is an astonished man." star star star star General Ann Dunwoody
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Reply #29 posted 09/10/08 1:58am

razor

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/h...604293.stm

And we are all still here...

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