When Mary was Black

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gSc_8f8YPEM

Hmmmm.... ...interesting.

What else is new?

Graycap23 said:

A Black Madonna or Black Virgin is a statue or painting of Mary in which she is depicted with dark or black skin. This name applies in particular to European statues or pictures of a Madonna which are of special interest because her dark face and hands is thought by some to be the true color. In this specialised sense "Black Madonna" does not apply to images of the Virgin Mary portrayed as explicitly black African, which are popular in Africa and areas with large black populations, such as the United States. However, it has been argued that European Black Madonnas have their roots in African traditions (see below).

Some statues get their color from the material used, such as ebony or other dark wood, but there is debate about whether this choice of material is significant. Others were originally light-skinned but have become darkened over time, for example by candle soot. For a time this was thought to be the explanation for all medieval "black" images of Mary, but this has been contested by commentators starting in the 1950s with Leonard Moss, who believed the color of originally-dark Madonnas had significance. Occasionally, a Madonna's face has been re-painted black after restoration had returned it to its original pale-skinned coloring, though the blackness of even these is sometimes significant to devotees.

The hard-to-explain Black Madonnas are generally medieval, or copies of medieval figures, and are found in Catholic areas. The statues are mostly wooden but occasionally stone, often painted and up to 75 cm tall, many dating from between the 11th and 15th centuries. They fall into two main groups: free-standing upright figures and seated figures on a throne. The pictures are usually icons: Byzantine in style though sometimes made in 13th or 14th century Italy. Most are an image of Mother and Child. Their faces tend to have recognizably European features. There are about 450-500 Black Madonnas in Europe, depending on how they are classified. There are at least 180 Vierges Noires in France, and there are hundreds of non-medieval copies too. A few are in museums, but most are in churches or shrines and are venerated by devotees. Many are associated with miracles and some attract substantial numbers of pilgrims.

After a late 19th and early 20th century theory that applied dark skin color was due to the candles burnt in prayer to the Virgin Mary putting soot all over the statue, there was little study of the Black Madonnas for several decades. Some theologians and historians still believe that all examples of dark coloring can be accounted for by the natural color of the wood used or by changes in color over time. They may add that a pale alabaster face was a post-medieval development. A counter-argument points to the apparently un-sooted bright colors of the clothing on some images with painted black face and hands.

Interest in studying Black Madonnas revived in the late 20th century. Scholars of comparative religion have suggested that Black Madonnas are descendants of pre-Christian mother or earth goddesses (Moss, Benko). Some have highlighted Isis as the key ancestor-goddess (Redd, McKinney-Johnson). Psychologists have discussed the maternal and female archetypes from a Jungian perspective (Gustafson, Begg). Although these approaches have stimulated academic interest, there is no well-established consensus about medieval motives for carving or painting Black Madonnas.

A direct link between the Black Madonnas of the European Middle Ages and ancient pagan traditions and representations has been asserted typologically since direct historical and artistic influences cannot be proved. Although no direct Catholic theological sources are available, it has also been suggested by many authors that the medieval veneration of Black Madonnas was in response to a line from the Song of Songs 1:5 in the Old Testament: "I am black but comely, O daughters of Jerusalem, ..." or "Nigra sum sed formosa" in Latin, words discussed at length in the sermons of Bernard of Clairvaux. Several surviving Black Madonnas are inscribed with these words, for example the figure from Tindari below; it is possible, however, that in some cases the inscriptions were added at a later date.

The revived interest, especially from feminist, neo-gnostic and neo-pagan writers and scholars, psychoanalysts and others in the 20th century, has led to various theories about the Black Madonnas. Many of these link the images of the Black Madonna either with pre-Christian traditions, or with themes such as feminine power.

Monique Scheer approaches this topic from the perspective of symbolic anthropology. She believes that these statues and paintings came to be perceived as Black Madonnas after the Middle Ages, perhaps as part of a Counter-Reformation tendency to promote "the veneration of miraculous images of Mary". She discusses the "symbolic meanings communicated by the dark skin of the Madonna" rather than focussing on the origins of their colour, and suggests that these symbolic meanings have been different in different eras and contexts.

Many writers seeking to interpret the Black Madonnas suggest some combination of the following elements:

Black Madonnas have grown out of pre-Christian earth goddess traditions. Their dark skin may be associated with ancient images of these goddesses, and with the colour of fertile earth. They are often associated with stories of being found by chance in a natural setting: in a tree or by a spring, for example. Some of their Christian shrines are located on the sites of earlier temples to Cybele and Diana of Ephesus.

Black Madonnas derive from the Egyptian goddess Isis. The dark skin may echo an African archetypal mother figure. Professor Stephen Benko among others says that early Christian pictures of a seated mother and child were influenced by images of Isis and Horus. (See figure.)

Black Madonnas portrayed the original skin tone of the Virgin Mary, thus placing the figures in apt historical contexts, as Jesus' family was more likely than not to have semitic colors and features.

Black Madonnas express a feminine power not fully conveyed by a pale-skinned Mary, who seems to symbolise gentler qualities like obedience and purity. This idea can be discussed in Jungian terms. The "feminine power" approach may be linked to Mary Magdalene and female sexuality repressed by the medieval Church. In France, there are traditions affirming that some statues are of Mary Magdalene and not of Mary, the mother of Jesus, but these traditions and related theories are generally rejected by theologians. The suggestion that Black Madonnas represent feminine power may be linked with the earth goddesses and attributed to the archetypal "great mother" who presides not only over fertility, but over life and death. These ideas overlap with "feminist spirituality" or "women's spirituality". (Chiavola Birnbaum)

Black Madonnas are sometimes associated with the Templars and/or St. Bernard of Clairvaux. Ean Begg suggests they were revered by an esoteric cult with Templar and/or Cathar links, but this idea is dismissed by other writers, who may also reject stories of a connection with Mary Magdalene, and any gnostic or heretical traditions.

Some Black Madonnas may have been created because the artist was familiar with other similar images.
One 21st century suggestion which is devotional and not academic, and which illustrates Scheer's point about different eras and contexts, proposes that the black mother and child remind us of the under-privileged black people of the world, and the nurturing care offered to the infant symbolises Jesus' love for the poor and dispossessed. This idea itself is dismissed and thought of as racist, judgemental, and stereotypical

[quote]

Graycap23 said:

2elijah said:[quote]

Graycap23 said:

What else is new?

Just to add, I'm sure that video of Mary in "color" so to speak, has been much debated aS well as the subject period. Many will not believe it and some will, just like how many people have actually been led to believe that Jesus was a "white male" He wasn't black either, but then there are there have been scholars who said his features probably resembled a man of arab descent. Who knows. People will believe whatever makes them feel comfortable.
[Edited 7/22/08 9:33am]

2elijah said:[quote]

Graycap23 said:

What else is new?

Just to add, I'm sure that video of Mary in "color" so to speak, has been much debated aS well as the subject period. Many will not believe it and some will, just like how many people have actually been led to believe that Jesus was a "white male" He wasn't black either, but then there are there have been scholars who said his features probably resembled a man of arab descent. Who knows. People will believe whatever makes them feel comfortable.
[Edited 7/22/08 9:33am]

Graycap23 said:

2elijah said:

Just to add, I'm sure that video of Mary in "color" so to speak, has been much debated aS well as the subject period. Many will not believe it and some will, just like how many people have actually been led to believe that Jesus was a "white male" He wasn't black either, but then there are there have been scholars who said his features probably resembled a man of arab descent. Who knows. People will believe whatever makes them feel comfortable.
[Edited 7/22/08 9:33am]

This is why I have so little respect 4 the History that humans have been taught. There are more LIES than truths.

ehuffnsd said:

Graycap23:

the rationalizations of the origins of the so-called Black Madonnas' coloration are dubious, to say the least. these icons are centuries old, and I presume that great care was taken to preserve them. IIRC, Pope Gregory V carried one with him for luck. The Eastern Orthodox churches have preserved them for centuries. By that reasoning, half of the icons in the Vatican would be black today, due to their continued exposure to candlelight.

As the Church became more and more Eurocentric, images were commissioned in the likenesses of the hierarchy. That accounts for the concept ingrained in our minds of a "Great White Father" and "Great White Savior" that's hard to overcome. But what cannot be avoided is that the Jews of antiquity were black, brown and beige. This is simple historical fact.

The Mother of the Son looked more like Beyonce, Janet or india, than today's Madonna.

Common sense tells you you can't hide a guy that looks like Max Von Snydow, Robert Powell or Willem Dafoe in Egypt for very long. Unless, of course, you believe that Egyptians looked like Elizabeth Taylor.

But a guy that looked like this could:

namepeace said:

Graycap23:

the rationalizations of the origins of the so-called Black Madonnas' coloration are dubious, to say the least. these icons are centuries old, and I presume that great care was taken to preserve them. IIRC, Pope Gregory V carried one with him for luck. The Eastern Orthodox churches have preserved them for centuries. By that reasoning, half of the icons in the Vatican would be black today, due to their continued exposure to candlelight.

As the Church became more and more Eurocentric, images were commissioned in the likenesses of the hierarchy. That accounts for the concept ingrained in our minds of a "Great White Father" and "Great White Savior" that's hard to overcome. But what cannot be avoided is that the Jews of antiquity were black, brown and beige. This is simple historical fact.

The Mother of the Son looked more like Beyonce, Janet or india, than today's Madonna.

Common sense tells you you can't hide a guy that looks like Max Von Snydow, Robert Powell or Willem Dafoe in Egypt for very long. Unless, of course, you believe that Egyptians looked like Elizabeth Taylor.

But a guy that looked like this could:

Graycap23 said:

namepeace said:

Graycap23:

the rationalizations of the origins of the so-called Black Madonnas' coloration are dubious, to say the least. these icons are centuries old, and I presume that great care was taken to preserve them. IIRC, Pope Gregory V carried one with him for luck. The Eastern Orthodox churches have preserved them for centuries. By that reasoning, half of the icons in the Vatican would be black today, due to their continued exposure to candlelight.

As the Church became more and more Eurocentric, images were commissioned in the likenesses of the hierarchy. That accounts for the concept ingrained in our minds of a "Great White Father" and "Great White Savior" that's hard to overcome. But what cannot be avoided is that the Jews of antiquity were black, brown and beige. This is simple historical fact.

The Mother of the Son looked more like Beyonce, Janet or india, than today's Madonna.

Common sense tells you you can't hide a guy that looks like Max Von Snydow, Robert Powell or Willem Dafoe in Egypt for very long. Unless, of course, you believe that Egyptians looked like Elizabeth Taylor.

But a guy that looked like this could:

ehuffnsd said:

Graycap23 said:

ehuffnsd said:

ehuffnsd said:

2elijah said:

namepeace said:

Graycap23 said:

ehuffnsd said:

Graycap23 said:

ehuffnsd said:

Graycap23 said:

Graycap23 said:

But that would imply that the popular church used falsehoods as a means of promoting their worldview. Com'on now, they'd never do that...

None of you know what you're talking about.

According to the good book and my gramma's painting as well as all of my unbiased research Jesus looked like this




Little known fact, Jesus did pilates every morning and he wasn't big on carbs.

This is what his moms looked like

Dance said:

None of you know what you're talking about.

According to the good book and my gramma's painting as well as all of my unbiased research Jesus looked like this

Well, since he was of Middle Eastern descent and born in Bethlehem (very close to Egypt (read:Africa)) it makes sense to me that he would have been more likely to have been black than to have been white.

But of course no one really believes Jesus was European *ahem* I mean white, do they??



Anyways. That video was interesting. I thought it was "interesting" that the article that ehuffnsd quoted seemed to repeat over and over "the soot stains" but didn't once mention the possibility of the real, actual Jesus of having been of African descent as a possibility.

IMO, the images are just reminiscent of the Isis and Horus goddess and god. Replicas such as the Trinity, and various forms of the cross have also been re-produced over the centuries as well.