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student is punished for his religous drawing lets continue to whipe our tails with the constitution!
free the slave | |
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link doesn't work. | |
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Ugh, kids suing for grades now, all based on some perceived victim issue. | |
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IrresistibleB1tch said: link doesn't work.
You gotta want it: http://www.foxnews.com/st...50,00.html | |
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2the9s said: IrresistibleB1tch said: link doesn't work.
You gotta want it: http://www.foxnews.com/st...50,00.html  thanks, i knew you'd come through for me!
Student Sues Wisconsin School After Getting a Zero for Religious Drawing Tuesday, April 01, 2008 MADISON, Wis. — A Tomah High School student has filed a federal lawsuit alleging his art teacher censored his drawing because it featured a cross and a biblical reference. The lawsuit alleges other students were allowed to draw "demonic" images and asks a judge to declare a class policy prohibiting religion in art unconstitutional. "We hear so much today about tolerance," said David Cortman, an attorney with the Alliance Defense Fund, a Christian legal advocacy group representing the student. "But where is the tolerance for religious beliefs? The whole purpose of art is to reflect your own personal experience. To tell a student his religious beliefs can legally be censored sends the wrong message." Tomah School District Business Manager Greg Gaarder said the district hadn't seen the lawsuit and declined to comment. According to the lawsuit, the student's art teacher asked his class in February to draw landscapes. The student, a senior identified in the lawsuit by the initials A.P., added a cross and the words "John 3:16 A sign of love" in his drawing. His teacher, Julie Millin, asked him to remove the reference to the Bible, saying students were making remarks about it. He refused, and she gave him a zero on the project. Millin showed the student a policy for the class that prohibited any violence, blood, sexual connotations or religious beliefs in artwork. The lawsuit claims Millin told the boy he had signed away his constitutional rights when he signed the policy at the beginning of the semester. The boy tore the policy up in front of Millin, who kicked him out of class. Later that day, assistant principal Cale Jackson told the boy his religious expression infringed on other students' rights. Jackson told the boy, his stepfather and his pastor at a meeting a week later that religious expression could be legally censored in class assignments. Millin stated at the meeting the cross in the drawing also infringed on other students' rights. The boy received two detentions for tearing up the policy. Jackson referred questions about the lawsuit to Gaarder. Sometime after that meeting, the boy's metals teacher rejected his idea to build a chain-mail cross, telling him it was religious and could offend someone, the lawsuit claims. The boy decided in March to shelve plans to make a pin with the words "pray" and "praise" on it because he was afraid he'd get a zero for a grade. The lawsuit also alleges school officials allow other religious items and artwork to be displayed on campus. A Buddha and Hindu figurines are on display in a social studies classroom, the lawsuit claims, adding the teacher passionately teaches Hindu principles to students. In addition, a replica of Michaelangelo's "The Creation of Man" is displayed at the school's entrance, a picture of a six-limbed Hindu deity is in the school's hallway and a drawing of a robed sorcerer hangs on a hallway bulletin board. Drawings of Medusa, the Grim Reaper with a scythe and a being with a horned head and protruding tongue hang in the art room and demonic masks are displayed in the metals room, the lawsuit alleges. A.P. suffered unequal treatment because of his religion even though student expression is protected by the First Amendment, according to the lawsuit, which was filed Friday. "Students do not shed their constitutional rights at the schoolhouse gate," the lawsuit said. "No compelling state interest exists to justify the censorship of A.P.'s religious expression." it's not quite adding up to me. i'd like to see non-fox coverage of this story. | |
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i fault the teacher. it is necessary to help others, not only in our prayers, but in our daily lives. If we find we cannot help others, the least we can do is to desist from harming them.
Dalai Lama | |
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It doesn´t really make any sense to me. What is so offensive about a cross in a landscape ? If the Hindu symbols are allowed, so should be his wish to add a cross to that landscape. I´d like to read a different take on this story. | |
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1. Damn conservatives always filing their frivolous lawsuits.
This is untoward! This is not toward! |
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I saw this on the news yesterday and thought the picture looked fine. Looking at it now I think the artist should have left John 3:16 off and left it to the imagination of the viewer. The news guy was quite upset that it was censored and some viewers agreed just as strongly but they failed to state the artwork also contained a biblical reference and I bet the outcome of the newscast would have been slightly different had it been mentioned.
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matthewgrant said: I saw this on the news yesterday and thought the picture looked fine. Looking at it now I think the artist should have left John 3:16 off and left it to the imagination of the viewer. The news guy was quite upset that it was censored and some viewers agreed just as strongly but they failed to state the artwork also contained a biblical reference and I bet the outcome of the newscast would have been slightly different had it been mentioned.
It doesn't even have it written in any artistic way, it's just a blob in the sky area like one of those motivational signs or doormats. I'd fail him too and has nothing to do with my spiritual beliefs, the cross is just fine but the pictures of demons or whatnot didn't have references to pages in the necronomicon or satanic bible and if they had I'd fail them too. [Edited 4/3/08 15:23pm] And I thought the verse was written ON the cross,that´s why I didn´t get why the student got a zero. Now, reading your post, it makes more sense because artistically,it doesn´t really fit. | |
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So, let me get this straight:
"It's better 2 B hated 4 what U R than 2 B loved 4 what U R not."
My IQ is 139, what's yours? | |
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SpcMs said: So, let me get this straight:
* There are some religious images (including christian ones) throughout the school, however they are of very different religions, and none of them seem to push a specific religion * In the arts class there is a well know rule that there cannot be any violence, blood, sexual connotations or religious beliefs in artwork (pretty stupid rule in an actual arts class, but pretty reasonable in your average high school arts class IMO) * A student willingly and blatantly disobeys the rule and refuses to correct the assignment he was given (and as far as I can read he was only asked to remove the words, not the cross), so he gets a zero * The student than tears up the school policy in front of his teacher?!? So much for tolerance... Anyway, unless they can convince the court that high schools can not 'censor' art work by students at all, this doesn't stand a chance in court IMO You are correct, unless this court bows down to its conservative masters again. It has been decided already: Waugh v. Mississippi University 237 U.S. 589, 596-597 Tinker vs. Des Moines School District 393 U.S. 503 Essentially the court has held the public schools have a certain amount of leeway to reasonably restrict what is protected speech. In the educational environment, what is generally protected, may not be. This is untoward! This is not toward! |
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Poor child.
4EVER ~ ~ | |
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wildgoldenhoney said: Poor child.
But he did sign that contract. Is this a private school though, who else make them sign contracts for school?  Public, not private. http://www.tomah.k12.wi.us/ This is untoward! This is not toward! |
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2the9s said: Ugh, kids suing for grades now, all based on some perceived victim issue.
I'm glad you brought this to our attention, slick. Aren't they the same ones who vehemently are fighting for the ability to discriminate and then want to cry if they are discrimnated against?  X INFINITY! 2009: Mermaids and Dolphins... | |
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Mars23 said: SpcMs said: So, let me get this straight:
* There are some religious images (including christian ones) throughout the school, however they are of very different religions, and none of them seem to push a specific religion * In the arts class there is a well know rule that there cannot be any violence, blood, sexual connotations or religious beliefs in artwork (pretty stupid rule in an actual arts class, but pretty reasonable in your average high school arts class IMO) * A student willingly and blatantly disobeys the rule and refuses to correct the assignment he was given (and as far as I can read he was only asked to remove the words, not the cross), so he gets a zero * The student than tears up the school policy in front of his teacher?!? So much for tolerance... Anyway, unless they can convince the court that high schools can not 'censor' art work by students at all, this doesn't stand a chance in court IMO You are correct, unless this court bows down to its conservative masters again. It has been decided already: Waugh v. Mississippi University 237 U.S. 589, 596-597 Tinker vs. Des Moines School District 393 U.S. 503 Essentially the court has held the public schools have a certain amount of leeway to reasonably restrict what is protected speech. In the educational environment, what is generally protected, may not be. can't believe i'm hearing this garbage. first of all, just because a contract is signed be (a) or two parties doesn't make it a legal binding contract. second this teacher had no right to tell this student not to express his religion. it is in the constitution. and third, the crack about courts bowing down to the conserves is so absurd i could spend days pointing out its flaws. were they bowing down when they took the 10 commandments out of school, what about burning the flag? im sure thats illegal now etc etc free the slave | |
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slave7 said: Mars23 said: You are correct, unless this court bows down to its conservative masters again. It has been decided already: Waugh v. Mississippi University 237 U.S. 589, 596-597 Tinker vs. Des Moines School District 393 U.S. 503 Essentially the court has held the public schools have a certain amount of leeway to reasonably restrict what is protected speech. In the educational environment, what is generally protected, may not be. can't believe i'm hearing this garbage. first of all, just because a contract is signed be (a) or two parties doesn't make it a legal binding contract. second this teacher had no right to tell this student not to express his religion. it is in the constitution. and third, the crack about courts bowing down to the conserves is so absurd i could spend days pointing out its flaws. were they bowing down when they took the 10 commandments out of school, what about burning the flag? im sure thats illegal now etc etc If the holdings of the Supreme Court regarding the constitution are garbage to you, why are you concerned about people "wiping their tails" with it? [Edited 4/3/08 20:45pm] This is untoward! This is not toward! |
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Mars23 said: slave7 said: can't believe i'm hearing this garbage. first of all, just because a contract is signed be (a) or two parties doesn't make it a legal binding contract. second this teacher had no right to tell this student not to express his religion. it is in the constitution. and third, the crack about courts bowing down to the conserves is so absurd i could spend days pointing out its flaws. were they bowing down when they took the 10 commandments out of school, what about burning the flag? im sure thats illegal now etc etc If the holdings of the Supreme Court regarding the constitution are garbage to you, why are you concerned about people "wiping their tails" with it? [Edited 4/3/08 20:45pm] if your trying to misquote me, please try harder. free the slave | |
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slave7 said: Mars23 said: If the holdings of the Supreme Court regarding the constitution are garbage to you, why are you concerned about people "wiping their tails" with it? [Edited 4/3/08 20:45pm] if your trying to misquote me, please try harder. You replied to my sourced post on Supreme Court decisions, calling it garbage. Would you care to clarify so I cannot "misquote" you? This is untoward! This is not toward! |
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if the student did the work, why did he get a Zero?
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Rhondab said: if the student did the work, why did he get a Zero?
Sounds like the art teacher took issue with the subject matter to me. Christian children should be able to expression themselves just as the Goth kids, etc, etc. I'm a little torn on this one. It is definitely one of those situations where we can only speculate until all the details come out. You have to look at intent. What place do printed words have in a landscape project? Is this an ongoing thing with the student? What is noted is that the cross on the landscape was OK. It was when the verse was added that there was an issue. It is a tough one, but from a legal standpoint, with the details we have, I would have to side with the school for now. This is untoward! This is not toward! |
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Mars23 said: Rhondab said: if the student did the work, why did he get a Zero?
Sounds like the art teacher took issue with the subject matter to me. Christian children should be able to expression themselves just as the Goth kids, etc, etc. I'm a little torn on this one. It is definitely one of those situations where we can only speculate until all the details come out. You have to look at intent. What place do printed words have in a landscape project? Is this an ongoing thing with the student? What is noted is that the cross on the landscape was OK. It was when the verse was added that there was an issue. It is a tough one, but from a legal standpoint, with the details we have, I would have to side with the school for now. I was always favorite student to every art teacher I had, and on a number of occasions I would get zeros or a less than desirable grade if I was bored with the project and did what ever the fuck I wanted to do even if it was better than anyone elses. And I think thats why this teacher gave that student a zero. Period. For doing what ever they felt like doing and not following instruction. | |
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Mars23 said: Rhondab said: if the student did the work, why did he get a Zero?
Sounds like the art teacher took issue with the subject matter to me. Christian children should be able to expression themselves just as the Goth kids, etc, etc. I'm a little torn on this one. It is definitely one of those situations where we can only speculate until all the details come out. I don't disagree. Too many things are missing from the story. I still don't see why he would get a zero. You have to look at intent. What place do printed words have in a landscape project? Is this an ongoing thing with the student? What is noted is that the cross on the landscape was OK. It was when the verse was added that there was an issue. It is a tough one, but from a legal standpoint, with the details we have, I would have to side with the school for now. | |
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How old was the student? If he was not 18 then the so called 'contract' is meaningless. Not to mention one can not just agree to give up a right. But all of that is not the issue and is really meaningless.
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OnlyNDaUsa said: How old was the student? If he was not 18 then the so called 'contract' is meaningless. Not to mention one can not just agree to give up a right. But all of that is not the issue and is really meaningless.
The teacher can instruct her students to not use specfic theams in their work. For example a teacher could say "no papers on abortion." If a student turned in a paper on abortion it would be a zero as the student did not turn in the assignment. If the teacher said NO DRUG references and the kid turned in a picture with a pot leafe in it with some pro-pot statement, it would be a zero. When I was in school we were told to write about a important historical person, the teacher had a list of a few people we could not write about: Jesus, Linclon, Washington, MLK... It was asked why? She said she had read 100s of papers on them all and wanted to learn about someone new. (she also excluded celebrities and MOST fictional characters). I did mine on Spiderman (I was moving the day it was due so she was cool with it.) i think your missing the point though...the teacher acted outside of her authority in asking the student to leave the religous themes out of his painting free the slave | |
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slave7 said: OnlyNDaUsa said: How old was the student? If he was not 18 then the so called 'contract' is meaningless. Not to mention one can not just agree to give up a right. But all of that is not the issue and is really meaningless.
The teacher can instruct her students to not use specfic theams in their work. For example a teacher could say "no papers on abortion." If a student turned in a paper on abortion it would be a zero as the student did not turn in the assignment. If the teacher said NO DRUG references and the kid turned in a picture with a pot leafe in it with some pro-pot statement, it would be a zero. When I was in school we were told to write about a important historical person, the teacher had a list of a few people we could not write about: Jesus, Linclon, Washington, MLK... It was asked why? She said she had read 100s of papers on them all and wanted to learn about someone new. (she also excluded celebrities and MOST fictional characters). I did mine on Spiderman (I was moving the day it was due so she was cool with it.) i think your missing the point though...the teacher acted outside of her authority in asking the student to leave the religous themes out of his painting BOTH OF YOU are missing the point. Not surprisingly. the religious nature of the picture wasn't the issue. Putting alphanumeric symbols, where none naturally exist, THAT was the problem. You both get zeroes
Besides, I'm sure the both of you would be the first one screaming about how homeowners signed agreements binding them to modern day loan sharking and thievery in the form of sub-prime loans so I would expect you not to be big fat hypocrites and hold this student to the agreement he signed. . [Edited 4/4/08 15:16pm] 2009: Mermaids and Dolphins... | |
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Mars23 said: slave7 said: can't believe i'm hearing this garbage. first of all, just because a contract is signed be (a) or two parties doesn't make it a legal binding contract. second this teacher had no right to tell this student not to express his religion. it is in the constitution. and third, the crack about courts bowing down to the conserves is so absurd i could spend days pointing out its flaws. were they bowing down when they took the 10 commandments out of school, what about burning the flag? im sure thats illegal now etc etc If the holdings of the Supreme Court regarding the constitution are garbage to you, why are you concerned about people "wiping their tails" with it? [Edited 4/3/08 20:45pm] i was responding to your comment about the courts bowin to conserves free the slave | |
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SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said: slave7 said: i think your missing the point though...the teacher acted outside of her authority in asking the student to leave the religous themes out of his painting BOTH OF YOU are missing the point. Not surprisingly. the religious nature of the picture wasn't the issue. Putting alphanumeric symbols, where none naturally exist, THAT was the problem. You both get zeroes
Besides, I'm sure the both of you would be the first one screaming about how homeowners signed agreements binding them to modern day loan sharking and thievery in the form of sub-prime loans so I would expect you not to be big fat hypocrites and hold this student to the agreement he signed. I would love to see the drawing, I keep imagining some terrible color pencil picture of orange and yellow hills with a brown cross on it. | |
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horatio said: SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said: BOTH OF YOU are missing the point. Not surprisingly. the religious nature of the picture wasn't the issue. Putting alphanumeric symbols, where none naturally exist, THAT was the problem. You both get zeroes
Besides, I'm sure the both of you would be the first one screaming about how homeowners signed agreements binding them to modern day loan sharking and thievery in the form of sub-prime loans so I would expect you not to be big fat hypocrites and hold this student to the agreement he signed. I would love to see the drawing, I keep imagining some terrible color pencil picture of orange and yellow hills with a brown cross on it. I saw it on FoxNews when the story broke, the drawing was pretty well done in black and white. Too bad the kid is wasting his/her talents. "It's better 2 B hated 4 what U R than 2 B loved 4 what U R not."
My IQ is 139, what's yours? | |
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slave7 said: OnlyNDaUsa said: How old was the student? If he was not 18 then the so called 'contract' is meaningless. Not to mention one can not just agree to give up a right. But all of that is not the issue and is really meaningless.
The teacher can instruct her students to not use specfic theams in their work. For example a teacher could say "no papers on abortion." If a student turned in a paper on abortion it would be a zero as the student did not turn in the assignment. If the teacher said NO DRUG references and the kid turned in a picture with a pot leafe in it with some pro-pot statement, it would be a zero. When I was in school we were told to write about a important historical person, the teacher had a list of a few people we could not write about: Jesus, Linclon, Washington, MLK... It was asked why? She said she had read 100s of papers on them all and wanted to learn about someone new. (she also excluded celebrities and MOST fictional characters). I did mine on Spiderman (I was moving the day it was due so she was cool with it.) i think your missing the point though...the teacher acted outside of her authority in asking the student to leave the religous themes out of his painting How so? Can he ask to leave political themes out of the painting? Anti-christian themes? Erotic themes? Violent themes? Racist themes? Sports themes? Words? None of them? All of them? Can he give a zero when a 15 year old boy draws a picture of his dick floating in the sky on a landscape assignment because his dick is his God? And after he refuses to remove that part of the drawing, and tears up the school policy? Still no zero? "It's better 2 B hated 4 what U R than 2 B loved 4 what U R not."
My IQ is 139, what's yours? | |
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