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Black in England We all know there ar eblack people here in The US. There are also black people in other continentts like Europe. I think there's some in Germany but the largest deposit has to be England.
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Fluid:
but there aren't nearly as many negroes in England as there is The United States. So do blacks share ghettos with whites?   "Negroes"  ..in America??? Where??.. ...Naaaaah.. .....can't possibly be.  [Edited 3/14/08 19:20pm] Education, the greatest weapon
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from my (admittedly limited, as an american) understanding of it, there's more discrimination based on class than race. | |
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Spookymuffin said:  I wrote a huge reply but it was lost in the transition.
Essentially no, England is entirely different from the US and next to none of the US racial stereotypes apply in England. Ghettoisation is rare; sure communities may live together, but they're not ghettos by any means. Black people are equally, if not more successful than white people. What needs to be understood is that there are so many cultures within Britain that it's virtually impossible to be racist. We are a multicultural society, and thrive in being one. The U.S. is a multicultural society | |
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Janfriend said: Spookymuffin said: I wrote a huge reply but it was lost in the transition.
Essentially no, England is entirely different from the US and next to none of the US racial stereotypes apply in England. Ghettoisation is rare; sure communities may live together, but they're not ghettos by any means. Black people are equally, if not more successful than white people. What needs to be understood is that there are so many cultures within Britain that it's virtually impossible to be racist. We are a multicultural society, and thrive in being one. The U.S. is a multicultural society Exactly...with many living at various class levels. Fluid..in America we have poor/lower-class;middle-class;upper middle-class/rich - African-Americans included within all those class levels, but with the way the U.S. economy is going with oil,gas,mortgage/rent/food/credit card interest rates/utilites, etc., rising, the middle-class (including all races in the U.S. in this category) are pretty much on their way to dropping into the poor/lower-class category with a begging pan and a sign that says "Will Work for Food...  "  At the same time, racism and classism issues does exist in America.
Now in the rural areas of America, especially in the south, where many poor whites live in trailer parks and lower income areas, many in society has a stereotypical and ignorant view and stigma attached to them as being uneducated, the men assumed as wife-beaters, alcoholics and robbing 7/11 type stores, etc. just like you mentioned how many in society, which is not really the way all of society thinks, have a stereotypical view of poor Blacks being uneducated and committing crimes. It's a class issue on both sides and stereotypical and ignorant views on both groups from many within society, but we still can't dismiss the fact that racism is alive and well in America. As far as England, I have no idea about the economic status of people of African/Black descent living there, since I have never been there, although my nieces grandparents live in London, but are originally from Jamaica. [Edited 3/14/08 20:04pm] Education, the greatest weapon
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Janfriend said: Spookymuffin said: I wrote a huge reply but it was lost in the transition.
Essentially no, England is entirely different from the US and next to none of the US racial stereotypes apply in England. Ghettoisation is rare; sure communities may live together, but they're not ghettos by any means. Black people are equally, if not more successful than white people. What needs to be understood is that there are so many cultures within Britain that it's virtually impossible to be racist. We are a multicultural society, and thrive in being one. The U.S. is a multicultural society true, but it really is different there. | |
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Janfriend said: Spookymuffin said: I wrote a huge reply but it was lost in the transition.
Essentially no, England is entirely different from the US and next to none of the US racial stereotypes apply in England. Ghettoisation is rare; sure communities may live together, but they're not ghettos by any means. Black people are equally, if not more successful than white people. What needs to be understood is that there are so many cultures within Britain that it's virtually impossible to be racist. We are a multicultural society, and thrive in being one. The U.S. is a multicultural society I never said it wasn't, but I don't think that racism would be the issue it is in America if it was truly multicultural, and I have sat in Los Angeles and witnessed people abusing Mexicans and actually growing angry at them "stealing American culture" or "infecting it with Mexican culture" - it's unbelievable. | |
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Spookymuffin said: Janfriend said: The U.S. is a multicultural society I never said it wasn't, but I don't think that racism would be the issue it is in America if it was truly multicultural, and I have sat in Los Angeles and witnessed people abusing Mexicans and actually growing angry at them "stealing American culture" or "infecting it with Mexican culture" - it's unbelievable. You need to understand why that is. England doesn't have the same immigration issue as the U.S. does. You're an island. Do you have thousands of French crossing your border to live without proper documents? | |
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Janfriend said: Spookymuffin said: I never said it wasn't, but I don't think that racism would be the issue it is in America if it was truly multicultural, and I have sat in Los Angeles and witnessed people abusing Mexicans and actually growing angry at them "stealing American culture" or "infecting it with Mexican culture" - it's unbelievable. You need to understand why that is. England doesn't have the same immigration issue as the U.S. does. You're an island. Do you have thousands of French crossing your border to live without proper documents? Yes, actually, we do. We have all of Europe to "deal with" because we have Freedom of Migration between European Union Member States. | |
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2elijah said: Janfriend said: The U.S. is a multicultural society Exactly...with many living at various class levels. Fluid..in America we have poor/lower-class;middle-class;upper middle-class/rich - African-Americans included within all those class levels, but with the way the U.S. economy is going with oil,gas,mortgage/rent/food/credit card interest rates/utilites, etc., rising, the middle-class (including all races in the U.S. in this category) are pretty much on their way to dropping into the poor/lower-class category with a begging pan and a sign that says "Will Work for Food... " At the same time, racism and classism issues does exist in America.
Now in the rural areas of America, especially in the south, poor whites living in trailer parks, society has a stereotypical and ignorant view and stigma attached to them as being uneducated, the men assumed as wife-beaters, alcoholics and robbing 7/11 type stores, etc. just like you mentioned how many in society, which is not really the way all of society thinks, have a stereotypical view of poor Blacks being uneducated and committing crimes. It's a class issue on both sides and stereotypical and ignorant views on both groups from many within society, but we still can't dismiss the fact that racism is alive and well in America. As far as England, I have no idea about the economic status of people of African/Black descent living there, since I have never been there, although my nieces grandparents live in London, but are originally from Jamaica. AFAIK, it seems to be more of a melting pot in England, in so much as there aren't so much impoverished communities easily definable by race, but very easily-definable impoverished regions/areas (stereotypically the north of England, and, within London, North London -- Camden (where I live) and King's Cross). | |
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Spookymuffin said: 2elijah said: Exactly...with many living at various class levels. Fluid..in America we have poor/lower-class;middle-class;upper middle-class/rich - African-Americans included within all those class levels, but with the way the U.S. economy is going with oil,gas,mortgage/rent/food/credit card interest rates/utilites, etc., rising, the middle-class (including all races in the U.S. in this category) are pretty much on their way to dropping into the poor/lower-class category with a begging pan and a sign that says "Will Work for Food... " At the same time, racism and classism issues does exist in America.
Now in the rural areas of America, especially in the south, poor whites living in trailer parks, society has a stereotypical and ignorant view and stigma attached to them as being uneducated, the men assumed as wife-beaters, alcoholics and robbing 7/11 type stores, etc. just like you mentioned how many in society, which is not really the way all of society thinks, have a stereotypical view of poor Blacks being uneducated and committing crimes. It's a class issue on both sides and stereotypical and ignorant views on both groups from many within society, but we still can't dismiss the fact that racism is alive and well in America. As far as England, I have no idea about the economic status of people of African/Black descent living there, since I have never been there, although my nieces grandparents live in London, but are originally from Jamaica. AFAIK, it seems to be more of a melting pot in England, in so much as there aren't so much impoverished communities easily definable by race, but very easily-definable impoverished regions/areas (stereotypically the north of England, and, within London, North London -- Camden (where I live) and King's Cross). So basically it's a class issue...the have and the have nots..either you have it or you don't. I've heard that England doesn't like their citizens to be homeless and have some way of preventing that. Is this true? I heard that from a friend about 5 years ago who lives there,.and does England have a major homeless situation there like in America? [Edited 3/14/08 20:03pm] Education, the greatest weapon
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2elijah said: Spookymuffin said: AFAIK, it seems to be more of a melting pot in England, in so much as there aren't so much impoverished communities easily definable by race, but very easily-definable impoverished regions/areas (stereotypically the north of England, and, within London, North London -- Camden (where I live) and King's Cross). I've heard that England doesn't like their citizens to be homeless and have some way of preventing that. Is this true? I heard that from a friend about 5 years ago who lives there,.and does England have a major homeless situation there like in America? [Edited 3/14/08 20:00pm] It's not as major as America as we have Emergency Shelter, Soup Kitchens, Rehabilitation and many charities that are actually very active in protecting and helping the homeless. That said, there are still homeless people in London (there are 2 or 3 who I see every day near where I live). It really is far less of a problem than in America, but I think that's only due to the difference in our populations and our (quite socialist) welfare/human healthcare system. One major difference I noticed is that in England, giving money to the homeless is a big no-no. As kids, we were all told not to do it, etc as they may have serious drug problems and so on. I know that's taught in America, but I still witnessed people giving homeless people money to a far greater extent than in England. I did, however, also witness an extreme act of kindness -- a woman buying a homeless man more than he could eat from an In and Out. Again, that I have never seen in the UK. And yes, it's a class issue. To outsiders, British people appear incredibly classist - and I guess it's with reason. We can be pretty classist, but then our own opinion of what is classist is far more offensive than what America's opinion is. To clarify, in England saying "Oh, Camden's a hole, it's just full of chavs." wouldn't be classist, but would be to many outsiders. However, going up a a person who lives in Camden and calling them "common" or any other pejorative term is crossing the line (though I'm *guessing* in America the line would have been crossed long before that). [Edited 3/14/08 20:06pm] | |
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I talked with a black englishman. He wa ssaying how not only are they(all races) are better educated but it's truely a melting pot. He insisted that althought America is the most diverse country in the world and has high numbers of all races that we don't mix. Europe is more one vibe. As in he dated white women in England with no problem but when he came to New York(supposedly liberal) he had all kind of problems. Infact I heard of a black girl in Germany who said the whites in Germany were kinder to her than the blacks in America. Sad stories I've heard of our country. Working up a purple sweat. | |
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fluid said: I talked with a black englishman. He wa ssaying how not only are they(all races) are better educated but it's truely a melting pot. He insisted that althought America is the most diverse country in the world and has high numbers of all races that we don't mix. Europe is more one vibe. As in he dated white women in England with no problem but when he came to New York(supposedly liberal) he had all kind of problems. Infact I heard of a black girl in Germany who said the whites in Germany were kinder to her than the blacks in America. Sad stories I've heard of our country.
I'd agree with him 100% and I'm actually glad that how I feel about England's attitude towards race is confirmed by someone who could potentially be a victim of racism. Makes me proud to be British. Albeit quietly. We don't do patriotism, it's just not cricket.  | |
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Spookymuffin said: 2elijah said: I've heard that England doesn't like their citizens to be homeless and have some way of preventing that. Is this true? I heard that from a friend about 5 years ago who lives there,.and does England have a major homeless situation there like in America? [Edited 3/14/08 20:00pm] It's not as major as America as we have Emergency Shelter, Soup Kitchens, Rehabilitation and many charities that are actually very active in protecting and helping the homeless. That said, there are still homeless people in London (there are 2 or 3 who I see every day near where I live). It really is far less of a problem than in America, but I think that's only due to the difference in our populations and our (quite socialist) welfare/human healthcare system. One major difference I noticed is that in England, giving money to the homeless is a big no-no. As kids, we were all told not to do it, etc as they may have serious drug problems and so on. I know that's taught in America, but I still witnessed people giving homeless people money to a far greater extent than in England. I did, however, also witness an extreme act of kindness -- a woman buying a homeless man more than he could eat from an In and Out. Again, that I have never seen in the UK. Yes we have that here in America, but it's not enough and in the shelters, there is really no security to protect those that are many times attacked for their possessions. I agree that it is definitely a population problem.Mainly like what Janfriend stated as well. I am however, surprised about what you said about people in England being taught to not give money or help to homeless on the street. As many problems as America has, it basically always has been a country of giving, believe it or not, which is why we are probably up isht's creek right now economically. Giving to the homeless is not a no-no here. But when you mention the reason you all are taught not to give, I guess you can say that is a good reason--that the person may be on drugs,etc. Many people in America will buy a homeless person food, clothes, etc., and we have thousands of charities. Sometimes you can't help giving to a homeless person on the street, although we know we are taking chances doing that, because we do have people here that may not actually be homeless and will go around with a begging cup on the train. As you, I see homeless people everyday, no matter the economic status of the neighborhood. It's sad really, because I now see many middle-aged women from all backgrounds on the street and I can't help but wonder where the family members are. It's almost like they become "part of the furniture" so-to-speak, that you pass in your home everyday and don't always notice it, but you know it's there. It's like you become insensitive but not on purpose. In this country I honestly feel America does not take care of its children and its elderly enough, we actually should do more for them. Our foster care system lets kids out when they turn 18 and many don't have anywhere to go, so they end up homeless in the street. The homeless situation is growing and it's pathetic. But you can't help everybody, although you do wish the problem wasn't so major. . [Edited 3/14/08 20:20pm] Education, the greatest weapon
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fluid said: I talked with a black englishman. He wa ssaying how not only are they(all races) are better educated but it's truely a melting pot. He insisted that althought America is the most diverse country in the world and has high numbers of all races that we don't mix. Europe is more one vibe. As in he dated white women in England with no problem but when he came to New York(supposedly liberal) he had all kind of problems. Infact I heard of a black girl in Germany who said the whites in Germany were kinder to her than the blacks in America. Sad stories I've heard of our country.
I think that's just because she was dealing with a different culture and honestly she shouldn't have generalized that all Black people did not treat her kind. That's impossible. Maybe she basically just attracted the wrong personalities. Anytime you go outside your country into another, things will always be different and so will the people and the culture. Even sometimes within your own country. In America, for years I heard so much about whites in the south and how racist they were towards non-whites. I first visited the south in the early 1990s and yes, you will know if a white person in the south does not like you (if you're African-American) because they don't hide it, but I met many white people in the south from various economic scales that treated me like a human being, not overly obsessed with my race, although racism still exists there, but it depends on what part of the south you go to, is the only way you would be able to measure the racial prejudices there. I just cannot say the same for the north (New York) because I experienced so much racism, and still do. Racism here is more on the "sneak tip" the smile in your face but prejudice as soon as your back is turned, but it's not like I can't get through the day, I deal with it on an individual basis and just handle it. So I guess no matter where you go on this earth it all depends on the attitude and the culture of the people, as far as acceptance of others outside one's race and if they can see the person beyond the skin color. [Edited 3/14/08 21:07pm] Education, the greatest weapon
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fluid said: I talked with a black englishman. He wa ssaying how not only are they(all races) are better educated but it's truely a melting pot. He insisted that althought America is the most diverse country in the world and has high numbers of all races that we don't mix. Europe is more one vibe. As in he dated white women in England with no problem but when he came to New York(supposedly liberal) he had all kind of problems. Infact I heard of a black girl in Germany who said the whites in Germany were kinder to her than the blacks in America. Sad stories I've heard of our country.
Take it from a native New Yorker - this is one of THE most racist cities in the U.S. You want to know why America is the way it is? Study U.S. history in depth(regarding folks of color). | |
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uPtoWnNY said: fluid said: I talked with a black englishman. He wa ssaying how not only are they(all races) are better educated but it's truely a melting pot. He insisted that althought America is the most diverse country in the world and has high numbers of all races that we don't mix. Europe is more one vibe. As in he dated white women in England with no problem but when he came to New York(supposedly liberal) he had all kind of problems. Infact I heard of a black girl in Germany who said the whites in Germany were kinder to her than the blacks in America. Sad stories I've heard of our country.
Take it from a native New Yorker - this is one of THE most racist cities in the U.S. You want to know why America is the way it is? Study U.S. history in depth(regarding folks of color). As a native New Yorker myself...I agree. Lawd knows I had my share of it. But just to show you how prejudice is so alive and well in New York, just yesterday, a physician in our office ordered (through a nursing agency) for a patient to have a home health aide visit one of his patients. So when the nursing agency called our office yesterday and I answered the phone, she told us that the patient refused to let the home health aide in her home because she was African-American. I could tell the nurse on the phone was embarassed when she telling me this to give the info to the physician. . I told her this was nothing new and I was not surprised. So the nursing agency discharged the patient from the service because of that and refused to send anyone else. The patient was of Croatian descent. This would not be the first time we had a situation like this from a patient, and I'm sure many African-American nurses, home health aides, etc. experience this all the time. [Edited 3/14/08 21:05pm] Education, the greatest weapon
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fluid said: I talked with a black englishman. He wa ssaying how not only are they(all races) are better educated but it's truely a melting pot. He insisted that althought America is the most diverse country in the world and has high numbers of all races that we don't mix. Europe is more one vibe. As in he dated white women in England with no problem but when he came to New York(supposedly liberal) he had all kind of problems. Infact I heard of a black girl in Germany who said the whites in Germany were kinder to her than the blacks in America. Sad stories I've heard of our country.
Is it truly a melting pot or just successful assimilation? | |
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fluid said: We all know there ar eblack people here in The US. There are also black people in other continentts like Europe. I think there's some in Germany but the largest deposit has to be England.
Now black americans have a stigma and stereotype for being poor,unndereducated,and violent more than not in the states. I want to know about England. Are you equally as likely to find a well off black englishman as a lower class one. I know studies show that blacks in England score just as high as whites but are there black gehttos? I mean I know there are lowr class blacks there but there aren't nearly as many negroes in England as there is The United States. So do blacks share ghettos with whites? Black and white get along just fine in England, generally. It is pretty harmonious. Up to 50% of black men in the UK are in relationships with white women, and close to 48% of the UK's black population is mixed race. There are three sides to every story. My side, your side, and the truth. And no one is lying. Memories shared serve each one differently | |
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Spookymuffin said: 2elijah said: I've heard that England doesn't like their citizens to be homeless and have some way of preventing that. Is this true? I heard that from a friend about 5 years ago who lives there,.and does England have a major homeless situation there like in America? [Edited 3/14/08 20:00pm] It's not as major as America as we have Emergency Shelter, Soup Kitchens, Rehabilitation and many charities that are actually very active in protecting and helping the homeless. That said, there are still homeless people in London (there are 2 or 3 who I see every day near where I live). It really is far less of a problem than in America, but I think that's only due to the difference in our populations and our (quite socialist) welfare/human healthcare system. One major difference I noticed is that in England, giving money to the homeless is a big no-no. As kids, we were all told not to do it, etc as they may have serious drug problems and so on. I know that's taught in America, but I still witnessed people giving homeless people money to a far greater extent than in England. I did, however, also witness an extreme act of kindness -- a woman buying a homeless man more than he could eat from an In and Out. Again, that I have never seen in the UK. And yes, it's a class issue. To outsiders, British people appear incredibly classist - and I guess it's with reason. We can be pretty classist, but then our own opinion of what is classist is far more offensive than what America's opinion is. To clarify, in England saying "Oh, Camden's a hole, it's just full of chavs." wouldn't be classist, but would be to many outsiders. However, going up a a person who lives in Camden and calling them "common" or any other pejorative term is crossing the line (though I'm *guessing* in America the line would have been crossed long before that). [Edited 3/14/08 20:06pm] Yeah, you're right Muffin. We don't have much racism in England, to be frank, but that's because we do have the class system. Chavs are the underclass. That said, it's only in the last twenty years or so that Britain has been a more racially tolerant place. It used to be way worse in the 70s and early 80s. There are three sides to every story. My side, your side, and the truth. And no one is lying. Memories shared serve each one differently | |
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Janfriend said: Spookymuffin said: I never said it wasn't, but I don't think that racism would be the issue it is in America if it was truly multicultural, and I have sat in Los Angeles and witnessed people abusing Mexicans and actually growing angry at them "stealing American culture" or "infecting it with Mexican culture" - it's unbelievable. You need to understand why that is. England doesn't have the same immigration issue as the U.S. does. You're an island. Do you have thousands of French crossing your border to live without proper documents? Please do some research before you say stuff like that. To briefly answer, no we dont have thousands of French but we do have thousands of Poles, Eastern Europeans and those that can cross from Africa into parent countries like Portugal,Spain and France that then cross without papers (open European borders) in to England, it is a major problem and given the welfare state here a huge burden. | |
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anael said: Janfriend said: You need to understand why that is. England doesn't have the same immigration issue as the U.S. does. You're an island. Do you have thousands of French crossing your border to live without proper documents? Please do some research before you say stuff like that. To briefly answer, no we dont have thousands of French but we do have thousands of Poles, Eastern Europeans and those that can cross from Africa into parent countries like Portugal,Spain and France that then cross without papers (open European borders) in to England, it is a major problem and given the welfare state here a huge burden. Absolutely right. Immigration's a serious issue in the UK, amd has been for the last few years. There are three sides to every story. My side, your side, and the truth. And no one is lying. Memories shared serve each one differently | |
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Janfriend said: Spookymuffin said: I never said it wasn't, but I don't think that racism would be the issue it is in America if it was truly multicultural, and I have sat in Los Angeles and witnessed people abusing Mexicans and actually growing angry at them "stealing American culture" or "infecting it with Mexican culture" - it's unbelievable. You need to understand why that is. England doesn't have the same immigration issue as the U.S. does. You're an island. Do you have thousands of French crossing your border to live without proper documents? I think there are probably more English in France than the other way round. But they all have papers. By the way, we may be an island, but we have the Channel Tunnel linking us to the European mainland. [Edited 3/15/08 4:39am] There are three sides to every story. My side, your side, and the truth. And no one is lying. Memories shared serve each one differently | |
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Janfriend said: fluid said: I talked with a black englishman. He wa ssaying how not only are they(all races) are better educated but it's truely a melting pot. He insisted that althought America is the most diverse country in the world and has high numbers of all races that we don't mix. Europe is more one vibe. As in he dated white women in England with no problem but when he came to New York(supposedly liberal) he had all kind of problems. Infact I heard of a black girl in Germany who said the whites in Germany were kinder to her than the blacks in America. Sad stories I've heard of our country.
Is it truly a melting pot or just successful assimilation? Good point Jan I think that saying that racism is there's virtually NO racism is taking it too far especially when I personally know some folks from there with some experiences. Classism isn't better than racism if that's whats going on over there. Personally, I think the Brits have enough history with mistreating people of color off shore(colonization)....throughout history no need to do it at home.  | |
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Rhondab said: Janfriend said: Is it truly a melting pot or just successful assimilation? Good point Jan I think that saying that racism is there's virtually NO racism is taking it too far especially when I personally know some folks from there with some experiences. Classism isn't better than racism if that's whats going on over there. Personally, I think the Brits have enough history with mistreating people of color off shore(colonization)....throughout history no need to do it at home. The Brits mistreated EVERYONE, irrespective of colour. See Ireland. We're equal opportunity haters over here. There are three sides to every story. My side, your side, and the truth. And no one is lying. Memories shared serve each one differently | |
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Janfriend said: fluid said: I talked with a black englishman. He wa ssaying how not only are they(all races) are better educated but it's truely a melting pot. He insisted that althought America is the most diverse country in the world and has high numbers of all races that we don't mix. Europe is more one vibe. As in he dated white women in England with no problem but when he came to New York(supposedly liberal) he had all kind of problems. Infact I heard of a black girl in Germany who said the whites in Germany were kinder to her than the blacks in America. Sad stories I've heard of our country.
Is it truly a melting pot or just successful assimilation? Bit of both. There are three sides to every story. My side, your side, and the truth. And no one is lying. Memories shared serve each one differently | |
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Shapeshifter said: Rhondab said: Good point Jan I think that saying that racism is there's virtually NO racism is taking it too far especially when I personally know some folks from there with some experiences. Classism isn't better than racism if that's whats going on over there. Personally, I think the Brits have enough history with mistreating people of color off shore(colonization)....throughout history no need to do it at home. The Brits mistreated EVERYONE, irrespective of colour. See Ireland. We're equal opportunity haters over here. I recently found out about how the Irish were treated back in the day when they were chased from their homes and forced into slavery by the English, and masses sent to the Barbados and various places in the Caribbean to work as slaves. I also remember it was sometime back in the late 80s that an Irish co-worker who was going to visit her family in Ireland, who was the first one to tell me about when they came to America, that they were treated badly, but recently I found a very interesting article, which I posted here last month regarding Irish slavery. That would be a good topic for someone to post for St. Patrick's day to discuss and educate others about the history of the Irish and Irish slavery, since St. Patrick's day is Monday (well at least in the U.S);particularly someone of Irish descent or English for that matter can post information in another thread on that. But I have to agree with Rhondab, classism is just as bad as racism. Both isms cause division. Shapeshifter, here's a link to an article I found regarding Irish Slavery: http://www.kavanaghfamily...618jfc.htm word edit [Edited 3/15/08 7:22am] Education, the greatest weapon
--- To know about humans, you first have to learn where they came from... http://www.youtube.com/wa...V6A8oGtPc4 http://www.youtube.com/wa...04FKo3adw8 | |
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