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Honest question for the Witnesses about Prince For the record, this post is not bait. I am also not questioning whether Prince is a Witness or not. If he says he is, then so be it.
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Lothan said: For the record, this post is not bait. I am also not questioning whether Prince is a Witness or not. If he says he is, then so be it.
I am questioning why there appears to me that there is a double standard when it comes to him. It is obvious money is very important to him, he wears high heels and makeup, parties, and sings songs about sex. Now, not too far in the past, there was a tract that was sent out distinguishing witnesses from other faiths and how other faiths were false because of the way their members acted. Once again, I am not saying whther the man is a Witness or not. All of us are sinners, etc. Religious people fall short all the time. IF he were a regular guy, wouldn't some of you be calling him out? there are parts of the bible the forbid people from cross dressing. And God will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me. Matt 25:40 | |
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Fat pockets! | |
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Lean pockets! Ignore this post.
I don't need the encouragement. "To criticize is to choose the laziest form of expression." -some deep dude | |
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Not if the regular guy was a performer, I would think that he dresses diff when at the hall and in the ministry. I think if he didn't he would get called out.
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rodman2 said: Not if the regular guy was a performer, I would think that he dresses diff when at the hall and in the ministry. I think if he didn't he would get called out.
Prince wears makeup and heels even when he is not performing. Are you going to address all of what I said or continue to pick and choose?You need to talk to people he associates with, all I can do is assume. I imagine when Larry Graham performs he wears a costume, but again I'm assuming, he still performs. None of us wear our work clothes to the meetings. Thats the best I can answer that question. | |
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Lothan said: rodman2 said: Not if the regular guy was a performer, I would think that he dresses diff when at the hall and in the ministry. I think if he didn't he would get called out.
Prince wears makeup and heels even when he is not performing. Are you going to address all of what I said or continue to pick and choose?You need to talk to people he associates with, all I can do is assume. I imagine when Larry Graham performs he wears a costume, but again I'm assuming, he still performs. None of us wear our work clothes to the meetings. Thats the best I can answer that question. I wasn't aware of that, do you mean womans shoes, female makeup to look like a woman? Surely there are up to date pictures you can produce for me. I honestly don't follow the guy. | |
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I've never had much comment on the way Prince lives his life. All I know about him is what I read here, to be honest, and the pictures I see. I'm certainly not the judge of him. I would only call out someone if I had reliable details about their behavior and I knew someone who could deal with the situation. For everything else, I have the absolute confidence that God knows better than anyone what's up and will deal with everything in His due time.
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Lothan said: rodman2 said: Not if the regular guy was a performer, I would think that he dresses diff when at the hall and in the ministry. I think if he didn't he would get called out.
Prince wears makeup and heels even when he is not performing. Are you going to address all of what I said or continue to pick and choose?Not with those deep pockets he won't. You need to talk to people he associates with, all I can do is assume. I imagine when Larry Graham performs he wears a costume, but again I'm assuming, that sailor outfit Larry wears is a costume? he still performs. None of us wear our work clothes to the meetings. Thats the best I can answer that question. he's going to pick and choose....or ignore. Prince also goes to meetings with his bodyguards. Like I'm sure most JWs do 
b | |
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rodman2 said: Lothan said: Prince wears makeup and heels even when he is not performing. Are you going to address all of what I said or continue to pick and choose?
I wasn't aware of that, do you mean womans shoes, female makeup to look like a woman? Surely there are up to date pictures you can produce for me. I honestly don't follow the guy. | |
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Illustrator said: Lean pockets!
Those are not healthy for you  | |
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Uhope said: I've never had much comment on the way Prince lives his life. All I know about him is what I read here, to be honest, and the pictures I see. I'm certainly not the judge of him. I would only call out someone if I had reliable details about their behavior and I knew someone who could deal with the situation. For everything else, I have the absolute confidence that God knows better than anyone what's up and will deal with everything in His due time.
I really appreciate your comments here UHope. I always have. You have always been honest with me and I am going to do the same here.
He know longer attends the congregation he used to; my friend who goes there said that when he's in town, he goes to the congregation the Graham's belong to (who moved to another to be with their daughter). Other than that, I'm guessing he goes to the Kingdom Hall closest to wherever he lives/is touring. What we see is on the stage. His personal, private life is really not anything I'm privy to. Like someone mentioned on the other thread, it's not likely he's being used for any responsibilities in any congregation -- he's not there enought and perhaps the local elders do feel that his lifestyle is not exemplary. That's not a disfellowshipping offense but a person who desires any privileges in the congregation must be beyond reproach. I don't believe his money has anything to do with him still being a JW where others are assumed to be dismissed. Prince's money is NOT necessary for Jehovah's people to carry on our work, let's be real. If he were just a regular JW (not famous) yet lived his life just like Prince does -- and granted NO ONE has come up with proof that he is living immorally -- he would be just a quiet brother in the congregation who's there sometimes, sometimes not. He'd give no talks, would not be in a position of oversight, would not be used in demonstrations. The elders would likely be working with him to help improve his spirituality but not doing all one is assumed to be able to do is not a disfellowshipping matter. He would be qualified and expected to accomplish his ministry, however. We are called to account by Jehovah God for our heart condition; it is He whom we answer to. Just looking at a person and assuming we know what he's up to and what should be done with him is not anyone here's place. All we really need to be concerned with is how we ourselves will stand before God when He calls US to account for our heart and behavior. Edited to say -- when I saw him the two times at the Memorial, he was wearing a modest suit (a little more trendy than other men there, but nothing wrong with it) and he did have on heeled boots -- that his pants covered. He looked extremely modest (for Prince) and he had only been baptized about five months and a year the times I met him. Again -- Jehovah's Witnesses are not the policemen of others' faith like some here seem to like to believe. Prince is just a brother who goes to the Hall when he can. No more or less important than any other person in the congregation. 
[Edited 6/22/07 16:44pm] I do not understand how the organization pass out a tract denouncing other faiths when that faith is guilty of the same thing. Witnesses are no part of the world, yet Prince speaks out on politics. Witnesses are against immorality yet we see Prince being Prince writhing around on the concert floors and singing about the joys or sex, oral sex and masturbation. He hangs out with homosexuals. I don't need to know Prince personally to see this stuff with my own eyes. I mean NO disrespect to Prince because I am actually happy that he does his own thing and seems to be happy in his own skin. I wish more Christians would be like him and just 'be' and not stand in criticism of others. I mean no disrespect to Witnesses either but I would like a clear and concise answer, please. | |
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Uhope said: I've never had much comment on the way Prince lives his life. All I know about him is what I read here, to be honest, and the pictures I see. I'm certainly not the judge of him. I would only call out someone if I had reliable details about their behavior and I knew someone who could deal with the situation. For everything else, I have the absolute confidence that God knows better than anyone what's up and will deal with everything in His due time.
I would like to add that when an organization puts out a tract saying it is the only true religion, it is my opinion that they are trying to police other faiths.He know longer attends the congregation he used to; my friend who goes there said that when he's in town, he goes to the congregation the Graham's belong to (who moved to another to be with their daughter). Other than that, I'm guessing he goes to the Kingdom Hall closest to wherever he lives/is touring. What we see is on the stage. His personal, private life is really not anything I'm privy to. Like someone mentioned on the other thread, it's not likely he's being used for any responsibilities in any congregation -- he's not there enought and perhaps the local elders do feel that his lifestyle is not exemplary. That's not a disfellowshipping offense but a person who desires any privileges in the congregation must be beyond reproach. I don't believe his money has anything to do with him still being a JW where others are assumed to be dismissed. Prince's money is NOT necessary for Jehovah's people to carry on our work, let's be real. If he were just a regular JW (not famous) yet lived his life just like Prince does -- and granted NO ONE has come up with proof that he is living immorally -- he would be just a quiet brother in the congregation who's there sometimes, sometimes not. He'd give no talks, would not be in a position of oversight, would not be used in demonstrations. The elders would likely be working with him to help improve his spirituality but not doing all one is assumed to be able to do is not a disfellowshipping matter. He would be qualified and expected to accomplish his ministry, however. We are called to account by Jehovah God for our heart condition; it is He whom we answer to. Just looking at a person and assuming we know what he's up to and what should be done with him is not anyone here's place. All we really need to be concerned with is how we ourselves will stand before God when He calls US to account for our heart and behavior. Edited to say -- when I saw him the two times at the Memorial, he was wearing a modest suit (a little more trendy than other men there, but nothing wrong with it) and he did have on heeled boots -- that his pants covered. No make-up that I noticed. He looked extremely modest (for Prince) and he had only been baptized about five months and a year the times I met him. Again -- Jehovah's Witnesses are not the policemen of others' faith like some here seem to like to believe. Prince is just a brother who goes to the Hall when he can. No more or less important than any other person in the congregation.
[Edited 6/22/07 16:45pm] | |
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Lothan said: rodman2 said: I wasn't aware of that, do you mean womans shoes, female makeup to look like a woman? Surely there are up to date pictures you can produce for me. I honestly don't follow the guy. Spell it out for me if it's really bothering you. I think Uhope answered very well. | |
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rodman2 said: Lothan said: Like I said in my previous response to you, you are ignoring the rest of what I said. I get it now. You are not going to address what I said.
Spell it out for me if it's really bothering you. I think Uhope answered very well. | |
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Lothan said: I really appreciate your comments here UHope. I always have. You have always been honest with me and I am going to do the same here.
I do not understand how the organization pass out a tract denouncing other faiths when that faith is guilty of the same thing. Witnesses are no part of the world, yet Prince speaks out on politics. Witnesses are against immorality yet we see Prince being Prince writhing around on the concert floors and singing about the joys or sex, oral sex and masturbation. He hangs out with homosexuals. I don't need to know Prince personally to see this stuff with my own eyes. I mean NO disrespect to Prince because I am actually happy that he does his own thing and seems to be happy in his own skin. I wish more Christians would be like him and just 'be' and not stand in criticism of others. I mean no disrespect to Witnesses either but I would like a clear and concise answer, please. Ivy -- I don't know what answer you're looking for. That if Prince does something and doesn't seem to suffer the consequences that it must be okay? That we think he deserves special treatment? That he's a "new, less uptight" version of how one can be one of Jehovah's Witnesses? None of that is true. If Prince is, indeed, guilty of loose conduct, immorality, or has compromised his Christian neutrality then, yes -- he will have to answer for it. Those behaviors are not acceptable amongst Jehovah's Witnesses. I do not know what counsel he may have received already from the congregation or how he responded. Believe it or not, what Prince does all day (or night) is nowhere near the top of my daily radar -- I've got my own life to be concerned about. But I do know that I am not the master of his faith. The Bible instructs us not to be. Personally, I do wish that he'd calm down. I don't know how "happy in his skin" he is; never had that kind of conversation with him. Perhaps that's what's behind his plans to "travel & study" that he commented on. I hope so. But I don't know. Don't particularly care, to be honest. His life is none of my business any more than any other JW's life is mine to comment on. Frankly, it's got to be a drag to be him, to have his actions and motivations constantly analyzed. But he's put himself out there, so . . .
Yes, there has been strong commentary about other religions from Jehovah's Witnesses. The Bible has never been shy about exposing the difference between worship that God approves of and what He doesn't. It's our responsibility to teach those who are interested in learning the Bible what it says. It's not my personal responsibility, however, to comment about Prince's public behavior. If he has not been true to his dedication and will resist any offers of assistance to get it back together, he will be dealt with -- just like anyone else would be. Beyond that, I just pray that the brother doesn't mess up the best thing he's ever come upon in his life -- a good relationship with his Creator. From experience, that is the worst thing that could happen to a Christian. | |
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Lothan said: I would like to add that when an organization puts out a tract saying it is the only true religion, it is my opinion that they are trying to police other faiths.
How do you figure? It was a tract based on the Bible. People do what they want with the information; Jehovah is the Judge. Jesus Christ and his angels are the police. We're not capable of making anyone do anything or deciding anyone's fate. That's all between them and our God. We're just bringing the message we've been commissioned to tell. Don't think it's easy or fun. Just a responsibility. | |
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You're right. I am not going to get the answer I am looking for. Honestly what I gather from your response is that you guys or you are not concerned with Prince on a spiritual level because he will have to answer to God. This strikes me as odd because if you guys are concerned about what will happen to the rest of us enough to try to go door to door to minister, it sounds like a direct contradiction that you all are not just as concerned about one of your own. (Please correct me if I am wrong: this is just how I feel.)
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blast this site. Lothan said: You're right. I am not going to get the answer I am looking for. Honestly what I gather from your response is that you guys or you are not concerned with Prince on a spiritual level because he will have to answer to God. This strikes me as odd because if you guys are concerned about what will happen to the rest of us enough to try to go door to door to minister, it sounds like a direct contradiction that you all are not just as concerned about one of your own. (Please correct me if I am wrong: this is just how I feel.)
I have been trying to understand this faith for years. I honest to goodness don't know what answer you are looking for, I'm sorry. I thought I addressed the concerns you expressed.  Are you not getting the answers you think you should hear?
What do you think should be done and why? I'm curious. What would you like to see from JWs on this board about Prince? I'm concerned about Prince on a spiritual level like I'm concerned about ALL of my brothers and sisters -- but since I don't know the man, what am I supposed to do about his behaviors? Even if I did know him, the best I could do is talk to him, encourage him to talk to the elders (which he probably is, being Larry Graham's friend and he is an elder) and wish him the best. I cannot make him do anything; I cannot dictate how he does his job. His dedication is to Jehovah, not to me. Regarding the "rest of you" -- yes, there are many, many people who are sighing and groaning over the things they see everyday and long for something real to put their hope in. As Jehovah's Witnesses, we are absolutely required to share the good news about God's Kingdom to everyone who will listen and millions of people appreciate it. Prince was one of those at one time and obviously responded to that good news. Now that he has decided to become one of us, he is accountable to Jehovah and his fellow Christians (to a degree) to how he carries out his commission. He's on a different level, now, than the people we talk to in the ministry. He's on the other side of the door, as it were.
It's not that anyone is "less concerned". It's more like the difference in concern expressed towards a three-year-old child and a 25 year old man. The man needs to carry his weight, right? We are expected to become full-grown in our powers of understanding and reason. In fact, a first century congregation was reprimanded for regressing back to the ways and attitudes they had when they were first learning Bible truths, needing someone to teach them when they should have been the teachers in view of the time that had passed. Truly, neither you nor I know what IS being done to assist Prince. But once a person has dedicated himself to Jehovah, in full knowledge of that means for him, they must do their own utmost to live up to it. If they decide they won't, then it's Jehovah they're turning their back on -- not me. I can call you in about an hour if you'd like to discuss this further.  | |
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Uhope said: Lothan said: I would like to add that when an organization puts out a tract saying it is the only true religion, it is my opinion that they are trying to police other faiths.
How do you figure? It was a tract based on the Bible. People do what they want with the information; Jehovah is the Judge. Jesus Christ and his angels are the police. We're not capable of making anyone do anything or deciding anyone's fate. That's all between them and our God. We're just bringing the message we've been commissioned to tell. Don't think it's easy or fun. Just a responsibility. | |
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Lothan said: Uhope said: How do you figure? It was a tract based on the Bible. People do what they want with the information; Jehovah is the Judge. Jesus Christ and his angels are the police. We're not capable of making anyone do anything or deciding anyone's fate. That's all between them and our God. We're just bringing the message we've been commissioned to tell. Don't think it's easy or fun. Just a responsibility. The Bible clearly outlines God's standards and expectations for those who'd like to follow Him. It's His way or it's the wrong way. | |
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Uhope said: ...he would be just a quiet brother in the congregation who's there sometimes, sometimes not. He'd give no talks, would not be in a position of oversight, would not be used in demonstrations. The elders would likely be working with him to help improve his spirituality but not doing all one is assumed to be able to do is not a disfellowshipping matter. He would be qualified and expected to accomplish his ministry, however.
So in other words you would consider him a "weak brother"? It is obvious that the JWs on this board are avoiding the issue. You know for a fact that a "regular" JW would get called to the carpet if they acted like Prince does in public (for instance, he went to a Maxim party last year). And I'm not dogging Prince, I think he has cleaned up his act tremendously, but I don't think that he is in line with JW teachings. [Edited 6/22/07 19:29pm] | |
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Lothan said: For the record, this post is not bait. I am also not questioning whether Prince is a Witness or not. If he says he is, then so be it.
I am questioning why there appears to me that there is a double standard when it comes to him. It is obvious money is very important to him, he wears high heels and makeup, parties, and sings songs about sex. Now, not too far in the past, there was a tract that was sent out distinguishing witnesses from other faiths and how other faiths were false because of the way their members acted. Once again, I am not saying whther the man is a Witness or not. All of us are sinners, etc. Religious people fall short all the time. IF he were a regular guy, wouldn't some of you be calling him out? Prince does a lot of things that's "borderline" but won't get him disfellowshipped in of itself. However I wouldn't be surprised if the elders had some talks with him about certain Bible principles. The thing I've noticed though is the Society has become more tolerant and less dogmatic about how people live their lives. For example, when I was a JW 20 years ago a college education was really really discouraged, of course because Armageddon was just around the corner. Nowadays, it's not uncommon for children of elders to attend college. That would've been unheard of 20 years. Certainly the Society learned their lesson with Michael Jackson. They came down very hard on him for his Thriller video and he eventually disassociated himself. The Society isn't going to make that same mistake with Prince. Indeed Prince has been the best thing to happen to the faith in terms of public relations since MJ. Any way, the JWs you might've known 20+ years ago aren't exactly the same as the JWs coming into the truth these days. Yeah, there are still some "old school" JWs, but the more recent converts are more "worldly" for lack of a better term. Think of it as JW 2.0.100 years from now when Armageddon still hasn't come, I think JW 3.0 will be nothing like JW 1.0. I think JWs 3.0 will be more like the Mormons of today, i.e. mainstream. David | |
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Lothan said: For the record, this post is not bait. I am also not questioning whether Prince is a Witness or not. If he says he is, then so be it.
I am questioning why there appears to me that there is a double standard when it comes to him. It is obvious money is very important to him, he wears high heels and makeup, parties, and sings songs about sex. Now, not too far in the past, there was a tract that was sent out distinguishing witnesses from other faiths and how other faiths were false because of the way their members acted. Once again, I am not saying whther the man is a Witness or not. All of us are sinners, etc. Religious people fall short all the time. IF he were a regular guy, wouldn't some of you be calling him out? Is there JW doctrine against a short man wearing heels to elevate his height or wear make-up for work? I Love Zoe! Zoe
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tmo1965 said: Uhope said: ...he would be just a quiet brother in the congregation who's there sometimes, sometimes not. He'd give no talks, would not be in a position of oversight, would not be used in demonstrations. The elders would likely be working with him to help improve his spirituality but not doing all one is assumed to be able to do is not a disfellowshipping matter. He would be qualified and expected to accomplish his ministry, however.
So in other words you would consider him a "weak brother"? It is obvious that the JWs on this board are avoiding the issue. You know for a fact that a "regular" JW would get called to the carpet if they acted like Prince does in public (for instance, he went to a Maxim party last year). And I'm not dogging Prince, I think he has cleaned up his act tremendously, but I don't think that he is in line with JW teachings. [Edited 6/22/07 19:29pm] Neither I nor anyone else can look at anyone we even know well -- let alone a stranger -- and pronounce that person's faith "weak". If it seems that someone is having a struggle, naturally we want to help. On spiritual matters particularly, elders are most qualified. There is no "issue" that needs to be avoiding. I've been (and Rod, too) answering to the best of our abilities. I find it rather fascinating that if there were some JWs here so bold and presumptuous as to comment in a condemning way about Prince's activities, they would be roundly set upon as judgemental, intolerant, narrow-minded and busybodies in other people affairs (which we, as Christians, are commanded not to do). Since we are wisely (IMO) stating that we don't know the man, aren't privy to what counsel he's received, cannot read his heart and have neither details nor authority to do/say anything about what Prince does, we're somehow now not judgemental enough or unconcerned. 
It's a grown man's business. There are people in my congregation that I see four or five times a week that I don't know what they do on Friday nights, what movies they watch, what attitudes lurk in their hearts. How in the world am I supposed to be able to make some kind of definitive statement about Prince? I can answer and vouch for my OWN behavior -- but no one else's -- any more than someone can speak about mine. I'm not being facetious here -- I am honestly wondering what you think any of us here should do? Or why you think anything needs to be done? I am intimately aware of JW teachings, TMO. And one of the many things I know for a fact is that someone is not disfellowshipped for any of the things that Prince is accused of or has been seen doing. I don't doubt that he has been counseled (but I don't know for this for a fact) and evidently 'til now, his behavior/attitude has not crossed the line where it's deemed he's not fit to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses. If it should get to that point, it will happen. But I truly hope not. That would be a tragedy for Prince. And no, Janfriend -- there is no doctrine against a short man wearing heels or make-up for work. "Modesty and soundness of mind", "well-arranged dress" -- those are the basic groundrules for any Christian in deciding how they will present themselves. Like someone mentioned earlier, many people dress differently for work than they would to go to Christian meetings (I know I do). When I saw Prince at the Memorial, his dress and grooming were quite acceptable -- he did not look like he looks on stage or in public appearances. | |
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ehuffnsd said: Lothan said: For the record, this post is not bait. I am also not questioning whether Prince is a Witness or not. If he says he is, then so be it.
I am questioning why there appears to me that there is a double standard when it comes to him. It is obvious money is very important to him, he wears high heels and makeup, parties, and sings songs about sex. Now, not too far in the past, there was a tract that was sent out distinguishing witnesses from other faiths and how other faiths were false because of the way their members acted. Once again, I am not saying whther the man is a Witness or not. All of us are sinners, etc. Religious people fall short all the time. IF he were a regular guy, wouldn't some of you be calling him out? there are parts of the bible the forbid people from cross dressing. That's part of what loses me on this Witness thing too. Most religions have some sort of rule or edict against wearing clothing of the opposite sex, and the JW's are no stranger to that particular rule. It's why society at large is (still) so uneasy with people who blur gender lines, and why Prince's appearance continues to shock after all these years. I know no one's perfect, and no one is ever able to completely obey their faith's rules, but why should Prince get a pass on this? Even in the past few years when he tried to butch up a little he was still dainty as anything.  Watching Batman beat the living shit out of The Joker during the Dark Knight was friggin' hot. That nurse's dress the Clown was sporting was damned hot too. I am a sick freak.  | |
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rodman2 said: Not if the regular guy was a performer, I would think that he dresses diff when at the hall and in the ministry. I think if he didn't he would get called out.
You need to talk to people he associates with, all I can do is assume. I imagine when Larry Graham performs he wears a costume, but again I'm assuming, he still performs. None of us wear our work clothes to the meetings. Thats the best I can answer that question. Prince dresses up all the time though. It would be one thing if we knew for fact that his makeup and heels are only for the stage, but they're not. Watching Batman beat the living shit out of The Joker during the Dark Knight was friggin' hot. That nurse's dress the Clown was sporting was damned hot too. I am a sick freak. | |
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meow85 said: rodman2 said: Not if the regular guy was a performer, I would think that he dresses diff when at the hall and in the ministry. I think if he didn't he would get called out.
You need to talk to people he associates with, all I can do is assume. I imagine when Larry Graham performs he wears a costume, but again I'm assuming, he still performs. None of us wear our work clothes to the meetings. Thats the best I can answer that question. Prince dresses up all the time though. It would be one thing if we knew for fact that his makeup and heels are only for the stage, but they're not. If that is true, and you devoted fans would know, then I suspect he has lost some of his priveledges, possibly can't go door to door and/or speak on the platform at the meetings. Possibly just allowed to attend. I believe that is how I would be disciplined. But again I am speculating. Uhope covered this also. I do feel for him, he is being pulled in different directions. Fame must be quite a feeling, can't even imagine what his life is like. | |
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So wearing PVC corsets and make-up and hanging around with two nubile young twins, who dance sexy on stage with you and show their knickers is being a weak brother ... ? | |
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it crashed on me for 20 minutes after i posted this; good thing i copied it first!
