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Thread started 02/04/05 4:12pm

XxAxX

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jesus was a copy of the pagan sun god mithras who was born 1400 bc to a virgin mother on 12/25, in a stable

ok. my knowledge of scripture is less than complete. i'm interested in hearing from those who know the bible scripture, regarding this point.

an ancient 'pagan' god called mithra/mithras was the divine savior of mankind long before jesus christ appeared on the scene.

according to the record, mithras was born to a virgin mother on december 25, died on a cross, was entombed, and rose again. his birth and resurrection were celebrated at the times of the winter and spring solstices.

because mithra preceded jesus christ in time by about 2,000 years, one would think there might be a reference to him in the bible, especially considering that jesus christ's life bears such remarkable similarity to mithras' life.

is there any reference at all to mithras in the bible? i can't remember/find any offhand. anyone know?


from: http://www.geocities.com/...mithra.htm

Mithra
(Mitra)
When the Aryan Sun God Barun is mentioned, he is mentioned with Mithra. Mithra is also the Sun God of the Aryans. Mithra and Barun seem to be twin concepts. Both Indian and Persian Aryans worshipped Mithra and Varuna, but with varying degree of importance. The Persians worshipped Mithra, called Ahura Mithra, as the chief deity and Varuna was the chief deity of the Indian Aryans. Other Aryan tribes even further west, as the Mittani, also worshipped Indrah, Varuna (Barun) and Mitra (Mithra). Today the name Mithra is forgotten and so is his religion. However, it may be that, Mithra quietly survives through one of the largest religions, incognito.

Mithra’s earliest record comes from the Vedas and the Persian Litterature from about 1400 BC. Today these ancient Gods have lost their place as supreme deities. In India, the Aryans after a period of demonizing Shiva (Shib) accepted Shiva as their chief God and in ancient Persia, when Zoroastrianism became the dominant religion, Mithra was relegated. Ahura Mithra in the holy book of Zoroastrians is a minor God with a minor function.

However, Mithra religion did not die with the disappearance of Mithraism in Persia. It simply migrated. Mithraists fled from Persia and took with them their faith to different lands. The greatest and longest lasting impact of this exodus was on Rome. In the first century B.C. Mithraism was introduced to Rome and became very popular as the cult of the “Sol Invictus”, which means the invincible Sun.

A most interesting thing is that Mithra’s story is very similar to that of Jesus and Mithra is older. Mithra was born of a virgin in a stable attended by shepherds on the winter solstice – which was quite often on the 25th of December in the Julian calendar. In 270 A.D. Emperor Aurelian even officially had declared 25th December to be the birthday of Mithra.

Mithraists believed that Mithra had not died but had ascended to heaven and would return at the end of time when the world would be destroyed by fire to physically resurrect the dead for a final judgement. The good would be sent to heaven and the bad to hell.

The similarity to the Christian belief and tradition is uncanny. Christians believe that Jesus was born on the 25th of December in a stable and that his mother, Mary, was a virgin. This date for Jesus’ birthday was fixed much later in 313 A.D. by Emperor Constantine, who was a follower of Mithra when he adopted the cult of Christianity as the state religion for Rome.

Being the Sun God, Mithra was worshipped on Sundays. That was their day of rest. Original Christians worshipped on Saturdays keeping the Israeli tradition. Constantine also changed the Christian weekly holy day from Saturday to Sunday.

The most interesting similarity is that the Mithra religion was ruled from the Vatican Hill by a leader called Papa (Pope). There are other startling similarities. Like Jesus, Mithra was worshipped as the saviour who granted his followers immortal life following baptism. On Sundays the followers of Mithra celebrated sacramenta which was a consecrated meal of bread and wine and was called Myazda which is exactly the same as the Catholic Missa (Mass). They used bells, candles, incense, and holy water for this. And this was in remembrance of the last supper of Mithra!

Another great similarity is in what is believed about the bread and wine. At the last supper Jesus said that salvation is for those who eat the flesh (bread) and blood (wine) of Jesus. Mithra supposedly said something quite the same: those who did not eat his flesh (bread) and drink his blood (wine) would not know salvation.

Many of the Christian traditions that are almost identical to Mithraism do not even have any roots in the Bible. These traditions and beliefs of Mithraism were exclusive to Mithraism until the fourth century A.D. and were not part of Christianity. These similarities are more than coincidence as Constantine directly added some of the Mithra traditions to Christianity.

Had Constantine amalgamated the two religions, Mithraism and the Jesus’s religion, into one Christian religion? The survival of so many elements of Mithraism through Christianity and the changes made by Constantine clearly suggest this. The making of Sunday as the sacred day and keeping the mass (Sunday service) and appointing the 25th of December, Mithra’s birthday as Jesus’ and most importantly, making the pope the head of the Christian church certainly points to amalgamation. (It is said that the garb of the pope comes from before Christianity.)

Through these moves Constantine guaranteed the survival of Mithraism and worship of Mithra. The ancient Aryan Sun God survives even today. Christianity is his vessel and Christians follow Mithra quite unaware of the fact. He just has a new heritage and lineage of the Jewish persuasion and a new name: Jesus.

Sources:

Franz Cumont, The Mysteries of Mithra (1903)
M. J. Vermaseren, Mithras, the Secret God (1963)
David Ulansey, The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries (1989)
http://www.atheist-commun...mithra.htm
http://web.infoave.net/~t...ictus.html
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Reply #1 posted 02/04/05 4:26pm

XxAxX

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from: http://www.taivaansusi.ne...thras.html

The Legend of Mithras

WE often hear about how many of the traditions, rites and symbols of modern day "Christian" holidays have their roots in paganism. Recently I came across the writing of historian Franz Cumont, who is consider by many to be the leading research authority on Roman Paganism. I was introduced to an ancient religion called Mithrasism. The following is the first in a series of articles I will be running about this and ancient paganism in subsequent issues. I have chosen this issue to begin with the story of Mithras' birth because it coincides with the Yule/Christmas season.

I often wondered why December 25th was chosen to celebrate the birth of Christ. If the accounts in the Bible are correct, the time of Jesus birth would have been closer to mid-summer, for this is when shepherds would have been "tending their flocks in the field" and the new lambs were born. Strange enough I found an ancient pagan religion, Mithrasism, which dates back over 4,000 years that also celebrated the birth of their "saviour" on that date. According to the Book of Origins, the Canon of the Mithrasic faith, "the universe was created through Mithras, and Mithras was born into the world to save humanity from the attacks of the evil one, Ahriman, who was opposed to human beings. Mithras released the goodness Ahriman had stolen from humanity, and then died to the world, going to the underworld to destroy the servants of Ahriman and bind Ahriman there forever. Then He returned to the earth to teach humanity His commandments and begin Mysteries and Rites which would help humans remember His acts on our behalf. Because of His actions, we can choose good without the overwhelming power of evil, even though evil's influence can still seem powerful because our minds believe it is. Because of His teachings, we know that the purpose of our lives is to serve others in the name of Mithras." The followers refer to Him as the "Light of the World" a phrase often used also in Christian faith when referring to Christ.

Persian legends of Mithras says that He was born of the Sun God and a virgin mother, called "the Mother of God", on December 25th. They saw him as a symbol of justice, truth, and loyalty. He was considered the saviour of humankind, and stories abound of His healing the sick, raising the dead, and performing miracles (making the blind see and the lame walk). Throughout His lifetime, He was seen as a protector of human souls, a mediator between "heaven" and "earth" and was even associated with a "holy trinity". He remained celibate,until the ripe old age of 64, throughout his life and preached the virtues of ethics, moral behavior, and good will.

The name Mithras comes from the Persian word for contract. Mithras was the guardian of contracts, the promise keeper; keeper of the covenant with mankind. Persians believed to break a contract would lead to bad luck for the entire land. Ancient Persians believed in a "celestial heaven" and hell. They believed that they would be judged by their god and granted justice of "eternal salvation. On judgement day, the faithful dead would be resurrected and light would triumph over darkness. They took part in ritual purification or baptism, held Sundays sacred, drank wine and ate bread as a symbol of the body and blood and even took part in ritualistic purging (purification rites such as flagellation).

In their legends, Mithras had an "earthly mission' to accomplish. He then was put to death on a cross and buried in a cave (some legends have Him held up in a cave to be reborn once a year).He then "rose from the dead" and took part in a last supper with his 12 disciples (often associated with the 12 signs of the zodiac) and then ascended to the heavens to watch over His "flock" from above.

Since these legends date back over 2,000 years earlier than the legends of Christ and even earlier than some of the "ancient" religions associated with many pagan rituals, one is compelled to contemplate the origins of our traditions today.
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Reply #2 posted 02/04/05 8:57pm

namepeace

Mithras never walked into history. Jesus did.
Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #3 posted 02/04/05 9:22pm

Soulchild82

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No back when rome was the world power paganism was then number one "faith" in its many form worship of Mirthas was one of the main Gods. THearly church in an attempt to gain converts wanted to compete with the Dec. 25th Sun god holiday and told the pagans it was the Sun of god hoilday. Confused they were, but it wasn't too far off from there holiday and some of thier costoms were added in there such as lighting the yule log. SO is Mithras Jesus? of course not it was a pagan diety.
"Thinking like the Keys on Prince's piano, we'll be just fine"
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Reply #4 posted 02/04/05 9:23pm

Soulchild82

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Check out the book "extrodinary origins of everyday things"
"Thinking like the Keys on Prince's piano, we'll be just fine"
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Reply #5 posted 02/04/05 10:16pm

Eternaldragon

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Here are some facts which obviously have gotten twisted:

No where does it say in the Bible Jesus was born Dec. 25th. This was invented by the church long after the Bible. (Nor does it mention Mithras.)

Mithras was born as an adult, out of solid rock, which left a cave behind.

Mithras never died but rode away on a chariot and then joined the gods in heaven. There is no evidence that he ever died.

Mithras probably did offer some great reward for his followers but there is no proof that it involved death, salvation or baptism.

Mithras sacrificed himself in the form of doing something heroic for world peace, not atonement for personal sin in death as Christ did.

[Gor.IV, 96] Actually states there is "no death of Mithras". There is no evidence that he died.

There appeared a form of Roman Mithraism after Jesus died in which much of the presuppositions stated in this thread have come from. They borrowed from Christianity, which in turn leads to some of the claims above.

Ulansey [Ulan.OMM, 3] tells us that "the teachings of the (Mithraic) cult were, as far as we know, never written down" and we "have been left with practically no literary evidence relating to the cult which would help (us) reconstruct its esoteric doctrines."

References:
Gor.IV -- Gordon, Richard. Image and Value in the Greco-Roman World. Aldershot: Variorum, 1996.

Ulan.OMM -- Ulansey, David. The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries: Cosmology and Salvation in the Ancient World. New York: Oxford U. Press, 1989.

Biv.PM -- Bivar, A. D. The Personalities of Mithra in Archaeology and Literature. New York: Bibliotheca Persica Press, 1998.
pray flag "I am the way, the truth and the life; No man cometh unto the father, but by me." - Jesus of Nazareth (John 14:6)
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Reply #6 posted 02/05/05 5:30am

XxAxX

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Eternaldragon said:[quote]Here are some facts which obviously have gotten twisted:

No where does it say in the Bible Jesus was born Dec. 25th. This was invented by the church long after the Bible. (Nor does it mention Mithras.)

exactly. constantine declared dec. 25th to be jesus' birthday in order to consolidate christianity and mithraism

Mithras was born as an adult, out of solid rock, which left a cave behind.

the roman legened of mithras does indeed say this. however, the legend of mithra that arose in persia/india (the one i cited above) has him born of a virgin mother. (see, also, the legend of krishna)

Mithras never died but rode away on a chariot and then joined the gods in heaven. There is no evidence that he ever died.

there are conflicting accounts of his death.

Mithras probably did offer some great reward for his followers but there is no proof that it involved death, salvation or baptism.

on the contrary, the record tells us that his followers were ritualistically baptized on the day of his worship - sun day - as befits the god of the sun
and that mithras, who came to earth to intervene for humanity, saved/redeemed us through his own life on earth where he did battle with the forces of evil


Mithras sacrificed himself in the form of doing something heroic for world peace, not atonement for personal sin in death as Christ did.

[Gor.IV, 96] Actually states there is "no death of Mithras". There is no evidence that he died.

the bible was created by men with a social and political agenda. to include a reference to mithras, to even mention his existence in terms of the similarities ebtween mithras and jesus would be to acknowledge that not every aspect of the bible is true.

There appeared a form of Roman Mithraism after Jesus died in which much of the presuppositions stated in this thread have come from. They borrowed from Christianity, which in turn leads to some of the claims above.

Ulansey [Ulan.OMM, 3] tells us that "the teachings of the (Mithraic) cult were, as far as we know, never written down" and we "have been left with practically no literary evidence relating to the cult which would help (us) reconstruct its esoteric doctrines."

actually this is not true. although the christian did its very best to completely and violently wipe out mithraism and its followers, such records have survived.i've read one of your sources and he acknowledges that there is 'much debate' between scholars as to some of these points.
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Reply #7 posted 02/05/05 5:35am

XxAxX

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now, let's take a peek at krishna, another savior who predated jesus christ, who was also born to a virgin mother. again, note the remarkable similarities between krishna's life and that of jesus. (not to mention horus and zarathrustra, but we'll approach those later).

mind you, there are sources for this information that are not on the itnernet, but these links ofer a nice way to cut 'n paste:


from: http://www.wilsonsalmanac...milar.html

krishna
born in india, C. 1400 BCE. Estimates of his birth date vary. Some are 1477, 3112, 3600, 5150, and 5771 BCE.

His advent was heralded by a pious old man (Asita), who could die happy knowing of his arrival, a story paralleled in the Bible by that of Simeon (Luke 2: 25). Krishna was born in a cave, which at the time of his birth was miraculously illuminated. Devaki, the radiant Virgin of the Hindu mythology, bore Krishna to the god Vishnu (second god of the Trimurthi (also called the Hindu Trinity)."The divine Vishnu himself descended into the womb of Devaki and was born as her son Krishna." Boslooper, Thomas, The Virgin Birth, SCM Press, 1962, Pp 148 & 149; cited in: The Virgin Birth of Christ. Of royal descent, Krishna was born while his carpenter "while his foster-father Nanda was in the city to pay his tax to the king" (Pagan origins of the Christ myth: Pagan Christs: Krishna). The story about the birth of Elizabeth's son John (the Baptist), cousin of Jesus, corresponds with the story in the Krishna myth about the birth of the child of Nanda and his wife Yasoda. (Source: The Virgin Birth Doctrine: Details of the two Gospel stories, 1922)
His birth was heralded by a star. The cowherds adored his birth. Celestial beings sang hymns at the birth. The baby Krishna began speaking to his mother shortly after birth. Devaki was told by an angel, "In thy delivery, O favoured among women, all nations shall have cause to rejoice". Angels issued a warning that the local dictator, King Kansa, planned to kill the baby and had issued a decree for his assassination. Krishna's parents fled and stayed in Mathura. King Kansa ordered the massacre of all male children born during the same night.Krishna's birth was attended by angels and shepherds. The infant Krishna also was presented with gold, frankincense and myrrh by wise men.
"It is in the bosom of a woman that the ray of the divine Splendor will receive human form, and she shall bring forth, being a virgin, for no impure contact shall have defiled her."

"The lamb is born of an ewe and a ram, the kid of a goat and a buck goat, the child of a woman and a man; but the divine Paramatma (soul of the universe) shall be born of a virgin, who shall be fecundated by the thought of Vischnou."…

Extract of Vedanta:
"In the early part of the Cali-Youga (the actual age of the world, which, according to the Hindoos, began three thousand years before the Christian era) shall be born the son of the Virgin."…

The Vedanta announces the incarnation of Christna [Krishna] should occur in the early times of the Cali-Youga, that is, of the actual age of the world. Source

Krishna's mission was to give directions to 'the kingdom of God' (Bhagavad Gita 2: 72). Krishna travelled widely, performing miracles – raising the dead, healing lepers, the deaf and the blind. He cast out indwelling demons. One of the first miracles he performed was to make a leper whole. He lived in poverty and loved the poor. Krishna warned of 'stumbling blocks' along the way (BG 3: 34). He was baptised in the Ganges River. Krishna performed miracles in Mathura. Krishna used parables to teach the people about charity and love. Krishna withdrew to the wilderness to fast.Eyewitnesses claimed Krishna was transfigured in front of his disciples; hence his disciples bestowed upon him the title jezeus, meaning "pure essence". He proclaimed he was the "Way to the Father". Krishna was anointed on the head with oil by a woman whom he healed.
He selected disciples to spread his teachings. He was meek, and merciful. He was criticized for associating with sinners. He humbled himself by washing the feet of others. He encountered a woman at a well. His path was “strewn with branches".
He was depicted on a cross with nail-holes in his feet, as well as having a heart emblem on his clothing. He may also be depicted as having his foot on the head of a serpent. He forgave his enemies. He celebrated a last supper. He descended into Hell, and was resurrected. Many people witnessed his ascension into heaven. Krishna said that "by human calculation, a thousand ages taken together is the duration of Brahma's one day" (BG 8: 17); cf 2 Peter 3: 8.

Krishna's names: Shepherd God; Sin Bearer; Liberator; Firstborn; Universal Word; Beginning and the End (Alpha and Omega) ("I am the beginning, the middle, and the end" (Bhagavad Gita 10: 20; cf Revelation 1: 8 ); Lion of the Tribe of Saki; identified as 'the seed of the woman bruising the serpent's head'. Krishna is the second person of the Hindu Trinity: (1) Brahma, (2) Vishnu, (3) Siva. Krishna is the incarnation of Vishnu

At about age 30, Krishna was "suspended to the branches of a tree by his murderer, that it might become the prey of the vultures ... [Later] the mortal frame of the Redeemer had disappeared – no doubt it had regained the celestial abodes ..."
Jacolliot, Louis, The Bible in India, Sun Publ. Co., 1992; cited in Specific Similarities in the Lives of Jesus and Krishna The crucified (this is open to dispute; read more) Krishna is pictured on the cross with arms extended. Pierced by an arrow while hanging on the cross, Krishna died, but descended into Hell from which he rose again on the third day and ascended into Heaven. (The Gospel of Nicodemus tell of Jesus' descent into Hell.) However, the Mahabharata refers only to Krishna's death by being shot by an arrow in the heel – suffering the same fate as the Greek god Achilles.
He brought back two boys from Hell.
Krishna is the second person of the Hindu trinity. He is said to return to 'do battle' with the 'Prince of Evil' who will 'desolate the earth'. Krishna was 'without sin'. Considered both human and divine; omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. Hindu and Catholic priesthoods have much in common, according to Australian author Peter Bowler in True Believers. Both have nunneries and monasteries; both believe celibacy is a virtue; both impose penances; both offer indulgences; and both use beads. Krishna will return on the last day on a white horse to judge the living and the dead. Krishna claimed: "I am the Resurrection". He referred to himself as having existed before his birth on earth. "Christ comes from the Greek word Christos, and Christos is the Greek version of the word Krsna. When an Indian person calls on Krsna, he often says 'Krsta'."
Srila Prabhupada
Krishna Some features: A future reward in heaven or punishment in Hell; a day of judgment; a general resurrection; the need for repentance for sin; salvation requires faith in the Saviour; belief in angels and of evil spirits; belief that disease and sickness is caused by evil spirits; a past war in heaven between good and bad angels; free will; God is considered the 'Word'
Scriptures speak of "the blind leading the blind, "a new heaven and a new earth", "living water", "all scripture is given by inspiration of God", "all scripture is profitable for doctrine", "to die is great gain".
Fasting forms a part of the religion.
The act of being born again is present.
Immersion in water by Hindus is an important ritual. "Water in Hinduism has a special place because it is believed to have spiritually cleansing powers...In the sacred water distinctions of caste are supposed to count for nothing, as all sins fall away ... Every temple has a pond near it and devotees are supposed to take a bath before entering the temple." (Source: 'Water in Religion', The Water Page)
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Reply #8 posted 02/05/05 5:43am

XxAxX

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i mean, the thing is, how on earth could there be so many religious figures, predating jesus, whose lives mimic the events of jesus' life? how could there be this kind of coincidence?
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Reply #9 posted 02/05/05 6:38am

fantasyislande
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XxAxX said:

the bible was created by men with a social and political agenda. . . . .



disbelief
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Reply #10 posted 02/05/05 8:50am

Eternaldragon

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XxAxX said:

i mean, the thing is, how on earth could there be so many religious figures, predating jesus, whose lives mimic the events of jesus' life? how could there be this kind of coincidence?


For one thing, the Roman Mithra religion took on some of Christs teachings and then these folks who you are trusting in, assumed that meant they did these things 2000 years ago, as well. Plus the fact that these are people who are against Christians in the first place.

For another, how many things need to be different? Water would be used in many religions as well as group meals, sacrifices, virgins, etc. etc. It simply means people have similar ideas about things.

Many warriors were depicted as being born of a virgin but only Christ's life has historical and eyewitness evidence, eyewitness and historical proof of His healing people, his death and resurrection. These other stories are mere myths.
pray flag "I am the way, the truth and the life; No man cometh unto the father, but by me." - Jesus of Nazareth (John 14:6)
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Reply #11 posted 02/05/05 9:00am

Eternaldragon

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fantasyislander said:

XxAxX said:

the bible was created by men with a social and political agenda. . . . .



disbelief


To: XxaxX

Um....the peopled that wrote the Bible were guided by God to write what he wanted in their own style. Saying the Bible was created by men is saying you don't believe in God at all. The Bible makes claims and was written in a way that nothing apart from the divine could have had a hand in it.

Also, these were normal folk who wrote the Bible. Fishermen, doctors, farmers, etc. They had no ties to anything like that nor interest in it. The folks that had a political and social agenda were the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Your argument is one sided in that you do not read and do not take into consideration the Bible and what it says. You need to study the whole picture first.
[Edited 2/5/05 9:03am]
pray flag "I am the way, the truth and the life; No man cometh unto the father, but by me." - Jesus of Nazareth (John 14:6)
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Reply #12 posted 02/05/05 10:46am

Cloudbuster

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XxAxX said:

i mean, the thing is, how on earth could there be so many religious figures, predating jesus, whose lives mimic the events of jesus' life? how could there be this kind of coincidence?


Simply that the "story" of Jesus is nothing more than, well... a story. And one that has been re-interpreted to suit different religions time and time again.

The more I discover, the more I realise what a crock of shit religion really is.
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Reply #13 posted 02/05/05 5:18pm

Eternaldragon

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Cloudbuster said:

XxAxX said:

i mean, the thing is, how on earth could there be so many religious figures, predating jesus, whose lives mimic the events of jesus' life? how could there be this kind of coincidence?


Simply that the "story" of Jesus is nothing more than, well... a story. And one that has been re-interpreted to suit different religions time and time again.

The more I discover, the more I realise what a crock of shit religion really is.


You obviously know nothing about Jewish culture. For them to change something would have been unthinkable. They wouldn't even touch the sacred pages with their bare hand. They used a page turner.

The King James has been found to be 99% accurate when compared to the original Jewish manuscripts of the Old Testament. (Nothing much original remains of the Old Testament.)

The only churches and groups that have changed things are off-shoots from Christianity and those who think the Bible needs to be redone over and over.

Religion is a crock of shit. But a personal relationship with God (the God of the Bible) is what counts.
pray flag "I am the way, the truth and the life; No man cometh unto the father, but by me." - Jesus of Nazareth (John 14:6)
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Reply #14 posted 02/06/05 4:14am

bUcKaRoO

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With regard to the Roman cult of Mithraism; there is such a lack of hard evidence (no literary maunscripts survive, for example) supporting the idea that Christianity supposedly 'morphed' Mithra into Jesus, that any comparisons are pure conjecture.

On the contrary, the evidence we have dates the popular mythology of Mithra developing at the same time as the early church, and long after the completion of the New Testament.
"Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."
-Matthew 6:10
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Reply #15 posted 02/06/05 4:36am

bUcKaRoO

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Here is an excellent page refuting the supposed similarities linking Christ to Krishna:

http://www.blackapologeti...quity.html

And another, answering the claims linking Christ with the Egyptian deities Osiris and Horus:

http://tektonics.org/copycat/osy.html

It would appear that such claims, essentially labelling Christ as just another in a pantheon of 'saviour-Gods', only have legitimacy within atheistic circles (which should come as no surprise) but have little or no basis in fact.
"Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."
-Matthew 6:10
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Reply #16 posted 02/06/05 6:32am

XxAxX

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fantasyislander said:

XxAxX said:

the bible was created by men with a social and political agenda. . . . .



disbelief




don't be mad sweetie. it's just my opinion and you don't have to accept it.
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Reply #17 posted 02/06/05 6:36am

XxAxX

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Eternaldragon said:
For one thing, the Roman Mithra religion took on some of Christs teachings and then these folks who you are trusting in, assumed that meant they did these things 2000 years ago, as well. Plus the fact that these are people who are against Christians in the first place.

well actually mithraism pre-dated christianity by a few thousand years. and it was the reverse that was true, the christian church did its best to wipe out all followers of mithra and all records of that church.

For another, how many things need to be different? Water would be used in many religions as well as group meals, sacrifices, virgins, etc. etc. It simply means people have similar ideas about things.

no doubt. there are quite a few similarities indeed. i was astonished when i stumbled across this stuff

Many warriors were depicted as being born of a virgin but only Christ's life has historical and eyewitness evidence, eyewitness and historical proof of His healing people, his death and resurrection. These other stories are mere myths

the christian church did its best to utterly wipe out references to mithraism, including purges of human followers and burning of books. we know the church has attacked 'heretics' in the past so this doesn't surprise us, really, now does it
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Reply #18 posted 02/06/05 6:38am

XxAxX

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Eternaldragon said:

Cloudbuster said:



Simply that the "story" of Jesus is nothing more than, well... a story. And one that has been re-interpreted to suit different religions time and time again.

The more I discover, the more I realise what a crock of shit religion really is.


You obviously know nothing about Jewish culture. For them to change something would have been unthinkable. They wouldn't even touch the sacred pages with their bare hand. They used a page turner.

The King James has been found to be 99% accurate when compared to the original Jewish manuscripts of the Old Testament. (Nothing much original remains of the Old Testament.)

The only churches and groups that have changed things are off-shoots from Christianity and those who think the Bible needs to be redone over and over.

Religion is a crock of shit. But a personal relationship with God (the God of the Bible) is what counts.



if you really think that religion is a crock of shit, but a relstionship with god is what counts, then don't you find it cool that there were so many saviors, basically the same, who wore so many different faces?

what if all of them are the same guy, and he was able to move through the space-time continuum differently? what if every single religion on the planet is 'right'?
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Reply #19 posted 02/06/05 6:43am

XxAxX

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bUcKaRoO said:

With regard to the Roman cult of Mithraism; there is such a lack of hard evidence (no literary maunscripts survive, for example) supporting the idea that Christianity supposedly 'morphed' Mithra into Jesus, that any comparisons are pure conjecture.

On the contrary, the evidence we have dates the popular mythology of Mithra developing at the same time as the early church, and long after the completion of the New Testament.




the christian church under constantine did its best to utterly wipe out mithraism, its followers and all documents and records associated with this. but mithraism was too widespread for that to be completely accomplished and records survived:

One of the earliest mentions of Mithra dates to about 1600 years before the Birth of Christ as his name is invoked in a treaty between warring Nations arising out of an early group of Indo-European peoples. Mitanni and Hittites -- the Mittanni, had invaded present day regions of Iran and Iraq, {Persia} and were spreading throughout the middle east, India and Europe.

Documents have also been found from the fourteenth century BC in the Hittite capital of Boghaz Keui, in which the name of Mitra is recorded as the God of light, and friendship who also maintains the cosmic order and assists Ahura Mazdain in his struggle against the forces of evil, represented by Angra Mainyu.

In the Hindu pantheon of Gods the legend currently manifests itself as the Hindu god Mitra.
He was associated with the Sun, and referred to as the God of Light, that is not to say he was believed to be the Sun. He was associated with the light of the world in a similar manner to Jesus and the Judeo Christian God being associated as the God of light.


from: http://www.geocities.com/...ithra.html
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Reply #20 posted 02/06/05 6:48am

XxAxX

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Mithra # 2

The Jesus Mysteries : Was the "Original Jesus" a Pagan God?

The Other God: Dualist Religions from Antiquity

The story of the Persian Mithra, although not the same Mithra who had been worshipped at least 1600 years before the birth of Christ is probably the story of another Great teacher/savior of Persian origins similar to Christ, but whose story was mutilated over the Centuries in the same fashion that the true Story of Christ has been mutilated .

As per Kelsey Graves in 16 crucified Gods, This Mithra was crucified in Persia circa 600 BC, this date is totally out of line as the Mithra story can be traced to possibly 10 Centuries before the Crucifixion in Persia. Yet there is proof of a crucifixion of a revered person-deity in Persia sometime around 600 BC . In the same region there is the second story of Tammuz approximately 600 years earlier who was also crucified in a similar fashion, and finally we have the story of Jesus being Crucified 600 years after Mithra in ancient Palestine/Israel. There is no historical proof of any of these incidents. But there are some indications that the Jesus Crucifixion may have been a fabrication.

The Original Mithra was 'Created" in the physical world from a rock struck by a lightning Bolt from God . {This bears more of a resemblance to the Creation of Adam than the birth of Jesus . Where man is created from the elements of the Earth. If you really read Genesis, you will see that Adam was not the first Human Being on Earth, as the sons and daughters of men were already there, but he was the first Created in the image of God.}

The Mithra who was crucified sometime around 600 BC was born to the Virgin Myrrha near the village of Bethlehem. Basically the only foundation we have of an historical Mithra so far is a crucifixion in Persia -600 years before the birth of Jesus Christ, and the establishment of a religious system that would spread through the middle east, and Roman Empire, eventually merging with the belief system of a Great teacher of Hebrew origins.

Jesus was a Great Teacher, he was not God - he was of God, a son of God. The original Christians never taught this. It wasn't until Paul the Apostle and Roman Emperor Constantine - both Mithraists - latched onto Christianity that the mutilation of Jesus Christ began.

A large portion of the Mithraist belief system is based on Celestial events and cycles, this is probably the element of Mithraism that predates the actual person represented by the crucified Persian in 600 BC. The followers of this Christ did the same as the followers of the Hebrew Christ, in mingling and mutilating his story and teachings with that of the established religion at the time.

As Mithraism spread and found it's way into the Roman empire , including ancient Israel/Palestine it was adapted by local cultures to fit their customs and intermingled to some degree with the established belief systems. Till the arrival of it's principal rival Christianity, the two belief systems co-existed for about three centuries, Mithraism being the dominant religion until the Third Century AD. One reason Christianity claimed the dominant position in the ancient World is that it adapted to the belief systems already established in the areas it migrated to. Christianity adopted so many of the rituals and beliefs of Mithraism , claiming them as their own that the two eventually became virtually indistinguishable .

The Roman Emperor Constantine, along with Paul the Apostle , the Author of close to a third- if not more- of the New Testament- are the two predominant figures in the establishment of Christianity as the dominant religion in Ancient Times. Both had converted from the religion of Mithra.

In the year 312 A.D. Emperor Constantine and his army are in the field. It is the night before an enormous battle against Maxentius which will determine who rules Rome. As per legend on the way to this battle Constantine saw "the cross superimposed on the sun". Attached to it was the saying "By this, conquer." His army of 40,000 are said to have witnessed it also.

That night Constantine says Christ appeared to him in a dream and told him to make a replica of the sign he had seen in the sky, which would ensure his victory. Christians adopted this Cross symbol as an appeasement of the followers of Mithra, whom they were recruiting into the Christian Churches in the Early Centuries. In particular Emperor Constantine's famous vision of "the cross superimposed on the sun" in A.D. 312. Constantine was a follower of Mithraism initially, the Cross was one of their symbols. Mithra was a Sun-God, while Jesus could be called the Son-God.

Paul the Apostle {Saul}

The Great theologian, originally a Jew, Then a follower of Mithra, and eventually the follower of Jesus Christ, by his miraculous conversion as evidenced in Acts 9, and who is largely credited with advancing the cause of Christianity allied himself with Constantine.

Constantine was the Worldly Power the Sword if you will. While Paul {Saul, the Jew, follower of Mithra ,and eventually a Christian. } was the Spirit of the Early Church of this Era, he was the Preacher, the propagator, the intellect behind the theology and belief system that has since evolved into our Great Institutions of Christianity today. In effect, there was a marriage of the two Great pillars of the Post Crucifixion Christian Church.

The Gospels allegedly written by the original apostles only date from the second or third Century, the era of Paul & Constantine, and have been corrupted from their original forms by the early Church fathers .


One Gospel, which Paulists could not corrupt was the Gospel of Thomas Judas Didymus - better known as Doubting Thomas. {Thomas was the apostle who traveled outside the reaches of the Roman Empire to preach the Gospel, some say to India. Thomas is Greek for Twin , Judas is believed to have been the brother of Jesus -- Matthew 13:55: “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?” -- and Didymus again is twin in Latin. So here we have possibly a brother of Jesus, and by some far fetched arguments possibly his twin} An uncorrupted copy of this gospel was discovered in Egypt in 1948 -- this is the version Paulists didn't get their hands on -- there is no mention of a crucifixion anywhere in this version !

Catholic priests bear the Title Father despite Jesus specific proscription of the acceptance of such title. { Matthew 23:9 Don't call anyone on earth your father. All of you have the same Father in heaven. } The title "father" for the priests is derived from the Mithra religion and is one of the many facets or loose ends in the marriage of the two religions.

Similarities between Mithraism and Modern Christianity

The Mithraic Holy father wore a red cap and garment and a ring, and carried a shepherd's staff
The Pope wears a red cap and garment and a ring and carries a shepherds staff.
--Priests of Mithraism bore the Title father. Catholic priests bear the Title Father despite Jesus specific proscription of the acceptance of such
Mithraists of The Roman Empire engaged in a ritual Eucharist signed with a cross. Catholic Christians from which Protestantism arose engage in a ritual Eucharist signed by a cross.
Celebrated a sacrament of consecrated meal of bread and wine. They also took part in a ceremony, termed a Myazda in which they drank wine and ate bread to symbolize the body and blood of Mithra . Catholics take part in a ceremony, termed Mass in which they drink wine and eat bread to symbolize the body and blood of Jesus.
The major traditions of The Original Christian Church of Rome, are little more than the Traditions of Mithraism, whose traditions date back to the ancient pre-Christian middle east and India.
Birth of Jesus

Jesus was born to The Blessed Virgin Mary in a cave in Bethlehem. As per Legend Three wise men from the East bought gifts of Gold, Frankincense and Myrrh at his birth -{ In reality they didn't catch up with him till he was about three years old. }

Gold is the symbolic metal of the sun and was considered to be crystallized sunlight
frankincense was symbolic of Male Creativity.
Myrrh was symbolic of the goddess, and both Mary and Myrrha are associated with Myrrh.
Adonis is another mutation of the Mithra Legend . Saint Jerome, the ecclesiastic who translated the original Latin of the Bible tells us that "The death and resurrection of Adonis, the mythical savior of the Syrians, were observed in the very cave where the Christian savior was believed to have been born. " The cave that most scholars believe Jesus was born in, {and that Christian Authorities are in agreement with} is the very same cave that Mithra was said to have been born in Centuries earlier. To the Virgin Myrrha As per legend when Mithra was born three wisemen from the East bought gifts of Gold, Frankincense and Myrrh. Mithra's birth was celebrated on December 25th, by early pre-Christian Mithraists. {But was originally celebrated in Persia & India on Dec. 21, the longest Night of the year.}

December 25
According to biblical accounts. The only clue we have from the scriptures of the New Testament as to the birthday of Christ is Luke 2:8 "Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night." Jesus Christ was not born in the winter on December 25. And the December 25 date was instituted by a former Mithra follower as it had been the Mithra equivalent of Christmas.

The December Date derived from Mithraism was most likely adapted by the Mithraism from tribal and primitive religions that predated it. Many ancient religions celebrated high holy days around December 25 through January 6 and it can usually be traced to a winter solstice As the longest night of the year, December 21 is also a turning point, after which the days grow longer. In ancient times it symbolized the triumph of the Sun God over the powers of darkness, so actually even though The birth of Mithra is celebrated at a time coinciding with the celebration of the Birth of The Jewish Christ, and the early Christians adapted this From Mithraism it is not necessarily the denotation of the birth of a personage, but the denotation of the re-birth in a sense of the Sun, while the Christians denote it as the birth of the Son.

Both the physical Personages of Christ & Mithra have indeterminate Birthdates, but can be said to be in the same Season of the Year. But separated by Centuries. In Christianity, The Son & The Sun are synonymous, as Christ is called the light of the World - The light of the Spiritual World - and the Sun is the light of the World in a physical sense.

It is no mistake that when The Lady of Fatima gave a sign to the masses she chose the Sun. {Sun Dance}

Mary who gave birth to the Hebrew Christ was a real person, she lived, she breathed , she existed as Human Being, and there are records of her, in fact St. Luke, the author of the original pre-Paul Book of Luke painted a portrait of her that she sat for {See Black Madonna}. Mithra may have been an abstraction , steeped in symbolism, or he may have been incarnate in Human form . Many of the Stories of his life and activities are symbolic of celestial events, such as the slaying of the Bull -Taurus -- {which incidentally- as furtherr proof of the impact of this religion on the World -- this ritual of the slaying of the Bull continues to this day in the Spanish tradition/Sport of Bull- Fighting.}

Jesus is depicted with a Halo - Mithra is depicted with a Halo
Halo has synonymous meanings and relates to "The Light"

Jesus was identified with the Lamb & at times the Lion -Mithra was identified with the Lamb & at times the Lion

JESUS was identified as the SON of God - Mithra was a SUN God and is identified with SUN. Difference again being between a physical celestial meaning in Mithraism and a Spiritual Celestial origin in Christianity

When Constantine saw his Vision of "the cross superimposed on the sun". Was he seeing the Son superimposed on the Sun or The Son superimposed on the Sun

Purification through a ritualistic baptism was required of the faithful in both religions.


Catholic Christians engage in a ritual Eucharist signed by a cross. Mithraists of The Roman Empire engaged in a ritual Eucharist signed with a cross. Catholics also Celebrate a sacrament of consecrated meal of bread and wine, followers also take part in a ceremony, termed Mass in which they drink wine and eat bread to symbolize the body and blood of Jesus. Mithraists Celebrated a sacrament of consecrated meal of bread and wine. They also took part in a ceremony, termed a Myazda in which they drank wine and ate bread to symbolize the body and blood of Mithra.

Jesus had Twelve Disciples .Mithra had twelve Disciples symbolic of the Zodiac. A major difference here ,once again is the Twelve disciples being Human, as opposed to symbolic of Heavenly bodies. Jesus=SON Mithra=SUN
Disciples = The twelve followers which revolve around the SON/SUN

Both were buried in a tomb and resurrected after three days. In the case of Mithra religion the three days were known as The Three days of Darkness.

Jesus resurrection is celebrated every year. his a principal festival on Easter, at which time he was resurrected. Many of the traditions we associate with Easter are born of Older religions ,and other minor Pagan belief systems. Resurrection of Mithra was celebrated every year. His principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected. This can be traced back to a seasonal explanations relative to the Spring equinox.

The worshippers of Mithras held strong beliefs in a celestial heaven and an infernal hell. They believed that the benevolent powers of the God would sympathize with their suffering and grant them the final justice of immortality and eternal salvation in the world to come. They looked forward to a final day of judgment in which the dead would resurrect, and to a final conflict that would destroy the existing order of all things to bring about the triumph of light over darkness. There is basically very little difference between the beliefs of the two systems, in respect to their concepts of Heaven, Hell and purgatory. Many of the Catholic and Orthodox beliefs, and legends that do not arise out of the Bible or Apocrypha have their roots in Mithraism.


-----

The Apostles meet a Mithraist ?


In Mark 9:38 John said to Jesus "Teacher,.....we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us." Who was this mystery man driving out Demons in the name of Jesus Christ ? He was not one of the Apostles, for they did not know him, and he is never mentioned in the Bible again, or if he was Paul and Genre censored it. This man driving out demons in The name of Jesus Christ was believed to be a follower of Tammuz or Mithra also known as Adonis OR a follower of an even more ancient religion from further East. He was invoking the name of Jesus Christ - as the Apostles understood it.

How is this possible ??? The name of Jesus was not yet known , there was no Christian Church yet, except for Jesus and the Twelve apostles - so how could a stranger be casting out Demons in the name of Jesus ? Is this passage a clue left by Mark in his Gospel, a clue missed by the Early Censors of Jesus ?
Jesus did not find this offensive as his reply to John was "Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you." This story is also related in Luke 9:40-50 and Mark 9: 37-39


-----

Conclusion{s}

The Mithra who was crucified in Persia Circa 600 BC , if he existed at all - was not the same Mithra dating back thousands of years and still present in many religions - primarily Hinduism as Mitra. The person who lived and preached in Persia 600 years before the Birth of Jesus Christ was the archetype from which mutilators of Christianity based their fable of the life of Jesus. Jesus was a Great Teacher of Hebrew origins, Mithra#2 was a Great Teacher of Persian Origins. The stories of both are mutilated through numerous cultural and convenient adaptations occurring over a period of Centuries.


from: http://www.geocities.com/...ithra.html
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Reply #21 posted 02/06/05 7:01am

XxAxX

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the legend of horus. again, we have someone born of a virgin, whose coming was announced by three wise men, on december 25, who had twelve disciples, who was crucified:


Horus was born to a virgin (who remains eternally virginal), Isis-Meri, on December 25 in a cave or a manger.
Isis, the goddess of motherhood and fertility, was called 'Mother of Heaven', 'Regina Coeli' (Queen of Heaven) and 'Stella Maris', as is Mary, the mother of Jesus, even today in the Roman Catholic Church: "Graeco-Roman culture was particularly enamoured of [Isis] and called her the Stella Maris (star of the sea), represented in the heavens by the north star ... [Mary's] portraits with the Christ often bear a striking similarity to those of Isis with Horus."
Jordan, Michael, The Encyclopedia of Gods: Over 2,500 deities of the world, Kyle Cathie Ltd, London, 1992
Isis bore Horus having impregnated herself with the semen of Osiris after his death (see Legend of Osiris and Isis). In a story reminiscent of the Biblical Moses story, she hid Horus in the papyrus marshes of the Nile Delta, so Horus is sometimes depicted as a falcon upon a column of papyrus.
Isis said: "I am she that is the natural mother of all things, the Mistress and Governess of all the Elements, the initial Progenitrix of all things, the Chief of powers divine, Queen of Heaven, the First of the Gods celestial, the light of the Goddesses. At my will, the planets of the air, the wholesome winds of the Seas, and the silences of hell are disposed; my name, my divinity is adored throughout all the world in various manners, in various customs and in many names, for the Phrygians call me the Mother of the Gods ..."
Apuleius, The Golden Ass, 1st Century CE
His earthly father was named Seb ('Joseph?) and was of royal descent.
"Isis seems to have been originally a virgin (or, perhaps, sexless) goddess, and in the later period of Egyptian religion she was again considered a virgin goddess, demanding very strict abstinence from her devotees. It is at this period, apparently, that the birthday of Horus was annually celebrated, about December 25th, in the temples. As both Macrobius and the Christian writer [of the "Paschal Chronicle"] say, a figure of Horus as a baby was laid in a manger, in a scenic reconstruction of a stable, and a statue of Isis was placed beside it. Horus was, in a sense, the Savior of mankind. He was their avenger against the powers of darkness; he was the light of the world."
(McCabe, Joseph, The Story of Religious Controversy; cited here)
In the catacombs at Rome today can be found pictures of the baby Horus being held by the Virgin Isis-Meri in what scholars have claimed is the original 'Madonna and Child'.
Like Jesus, Horus' birth was announced by a star in the east and he was allegedly attended by three wise men.
"Osiris’s coming was announced by Three Wise Men: the three stars Mintaka, Anilam, and Alnitak in the belt of Orion, which point directly to Osiris’s star in the east, Sirius (Sothis), significator of his birth." Source "Furthermore, inscribed about 3,500 years ago [1500 years before Jesus’ alleged advent] on the walls of the Temple at Luxor were images of the Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of Horus, with Thoth announcing to the Virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus; with Kneph the 'Holy Ghost,' impregnating the virgin; and with the infant being attended by three kings, or magi, bearing gifts. In addition, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis—the original 'Madonna and Child'.” Source
"The Virgin is consecrated to Isis, just as Leo is consecrated to her husband Osiris ... The sphinx, composed of a Lion and a Virgin, was used as a symbol to designate the overflowing Nile ... they put a wheat-ear in the hand of a virgin, to express the idea of the months, perhaps because the sign of Virgin was called by the Orientals, Sounbouleh or Schibbolet, that is to say, epi or wheat ear."
Brother Joseph Jerome de Lalande, founder of Lodge Des Neuf Soers (Nine Sisters), Paris; Astronomie par M. de la Lande, 1731 Source

Horus the sky god and his once-and-future Father, Osiris, are frequently interchangeable just as Jesus, God and his Father are interchangeable.
Like Jesus, Horus is claimed to have said: 'I and my Father are one'; his personal epithet was 'Iusa', the 'ever-becoming son' of 'P'tah' or 'the Father'.
At 12, Horus taught in the temple and was baptised in the Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan?) by 'Anup the Baptiser', who was decapitated. This occurred when he was 30 years old, having disappeared for 18 years.
As an adult, Horus performed numerous miracles including, like Jesus and even Buddha, the feat of walking on water.
He had 12 disciples, two of who were his 'witnesses” and were named “Anup' and 'Aan (the two Johns?).
Just as Jesus allegedly raised Lazarus from the dead, Horus was supposed to have raised El-Azar-us from the dead.
Before his death, Horus had 12 disciples and at one stage appeared before them, 'transfigured on the Mount'.
Horus performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus ('El-Osiris'), from the dead.
Horus walked on water. He delivered a 'Sermon on the Mount' and his followers recounted the 'Sayings of Iusa'. He was transfigured on the Mount.
He came to fulfil the Law. Horus was supposed to reign one thousand years.
Horus was called: Resurrected One; 'Iusa', the 'ever-becoming son' of 'P'tah' or 'the Father'; 'the Way, the Truth and the Light'; 'Messiah'; 'Son of Man'; 'Son of God'; 'the Word'; 'the Word made Flesh'; 'Holy Child'; 'God’s Anointed Son'; 'Word of Truth'.
Horus was called the 'KRST', or the 'Anointed One', long before the title was given to Jesus.
Horus also was called the Fisher; Good Shepherd; Lamb of God, and was associated with the lion, the lamb and the fish ('Ichthys').
Osiris was called Lord of Lords, King of Kings, God of Gods; the Good Shepherd; the Resurrection and the Life; Eternity and Everlastingness; the god who “made men and women to be born again".
Horus was crucified on 'an accursed tree' in sin-atonement, between two thieves.
After suffering death, Horus, like Jesus, was buried in a tomb where he was resurrected and ascended into Heaven, or 'Amen-ti'.
Just as Christians end their prayers with amen, the Horus-worshippers ended their prayers with amen-ti – Egyptian for 'Heaven' or the 'After World'.
At least 2,500 years before John baptised believers in the Jordan, the ancient Egyptians washed believers in the Nile, or in burial chambers.
In both cases, the purpose of baptism was to cleanse and revivify individuals – whether alive or dead – into a new state of 'eternal blessedness'.
Furthermore, just as Christians today are assimilated with Jesus through baptism, the ancient Egyptians were assimilated through baptism with their god, Horus.
In addition, just as Jesus himself was baptised by John, Horus was baptised by lesser gods.
Early Christian author Tertullian wrote: "For washing is the channel through which they are initiated into the sacred rites of some notorious Isis". Source
Osiris's flesh was eaten in the form of communion cakes of wheat, the “plant of Truth”.
"The 23rd Psalm copied an Egyptian text appealing to Osiris the Good Shepherd to lead the deceased to the 'green pastures' and 'still waters' of the nefer-nefer land, to restore the soul to the body, and to give protection in the valley of the shadow of death (the Tuat)." Source
In Duat (Tuat), the underworld, Osiris weighed the dead souls.
Orisis "once possessed human form and lived upon earth, and that by means of some unusual power or powers he was able to bestow upon himself after the death a new life which he lived in a region over which he ruled as king, and into which he was believed to be willing to admit all such as had lived a good and correct life upon earth".
Egyptian Ministry of Tourism website
"Ptah, creator god of the Memphite region brought things into being by the mere utterance of their names. The opening words of the Old Testament state that God also said the names of things to create them." Source
"In the resurrection of Osiris the Egyptians saw the pledge of a life everlasting for themselves beyond the grave. They believed that every man would live eternally in the other world if only his surviving friends did for his body what the gods had done for the body of Osiris. " Source (Frazer)

http://www.wilsonsalmanac...milar.html
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Reply #22 posted 02/06/05 7:37am

lovemachine

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I've always been intersted in why non-believers spend so much energy trying to prove believers wrong. I personally think they are afraid that they are wrong and might be doomed to an eternity in hell and are looking to console themselves by finding more evidence "God" doesn't exist. Like they need to prove it to themselves.
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Reply #23 posted 02/06/05 7:57am

XxAxX

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lovemachine said:

I've always been intersted in why non-believers spend so much energy trying to prove believers wrong. I personally think they are afraid that they are wrong and might be doomed to an eternity in hell and are looking to console themselves by finding more evidence "God" doesn't exist. Like they need to prove it to themselves.


thanks for showing up on my thread, lovemachine. hug now who would your snipish little dig be aimed at? lol lol

in case it's aimed at me, for the record i'm not trying to prove anyone wrong, in fact what i'm trying to get at is the historical truth. imo the 'truth' has been buried for a long, long time, and altered by men who have manipulated it for their own social/political purposes.

don't you find it absolutely fascinating that the major religions of the world share a common mythology, yet each denies the others' viability?

wouldn't it rock if all the different religions are right?? wouldn't that mean there is nothing to fight about, no reason for holy wars, no reason to CONvert our neighbors? wouldn't it mean we can get down to the business of living together in peace?
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Reply #24 posted 02/06/05 8:29am

sosgemini

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hey XXAxX, put a (JW) in the heading so that 333 will respond....I'd love to hear his take on this topic....(Seriously..) I do hope its "specific" enough for him to get an interest and respond..
Space for sale...
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Reply #25 posted 02/06/05 8:39am

XxAxX

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sosgemini said:

hey XXAxX, put a (JW) in the heading so that 333 will respond....I'd love to hear his take on this topic....(Seriously..) I do hope its "specific" enough for him to get an interest and respond..


lol see how you are lol


hmmm. a JW link. hmm well, if it's true that horus/krishna/mithras/jesus all walked the same path then that would suggest that all religions share a common basis. and if all religions share a common basis, that would mean the JWs can stay home and get some rest instead of knocking on all those doors, because no matter what religion folks choose to follow we're all on the same path. .. .. .


man that would rock. seriously. if all the religions of the world arose from one common message of love, which manifested itself through space/time in different places, all the different churches of the world would have to love each other instead of considering the others to be 'godless heathens' and waging holy wars
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Reply #26 posted 02/06/05 8:51am

Cloudbuster

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lovemachine said:

I've always been intersted in why non-believers spend so much energy trying to prove believers wrong. I personally think they are afraid that they are wrong and might be doomed to an eternity in hell and are looking to console themselves by finding more evidence "God" doesn't exist. Like they need to prove it to themselves.


lol

Nothing of the sort. It's simply that I know how easy it is to sell a lie. And as far as I, and many other people are concerned, that's all religion is.
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Reply #27 posted 02/06/05 9:32am

XxAxX

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Cloudbuster said:

lovemachine said:

I've always been intersted in why non-believers spend so much energy trying to prove believers wrong. I personally think they are afraid that they are wrong and might be doomed to an eternity in hell and are looking to console themselves by finding more evidence "God" doesn't exist. Like they need to prove it to themselves.


lol

Nothing of the sort. It's simply that I know how easy it is to sell a lie. And as far as I, and many other people are concerned, that's all religion is.



ok just wondering, if i may, how about this? would you be more attracted to the idea of religion if it turned out that the 'god' persona was a time traveler perhaps or a space traveler who has appeared and reappeared at different times and places across the planet to spread a message to humanity that will ultimately help us fight against the forces of darkness? like, the jedi force?

i kind of like the sci-fi twist, myself.
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Reply #28 posted 02/06/05 10:23am

jojofran

XxAxX said:

Cloudbuster said:



lol

Nothing of the sort. It's simply that I know how easy it is to sell a lie. And as far as I, and many other people are concerned, that's all religion is.



ok just wondering, if i may, how about this? would you be more attracted to the idea of religion if it turned out that the 'god' persona was a time traveler perhaps or a space traveler who has appeared and reappeared at different times and places across the planet to spread a message to humanity that will ultimately help us fight against the forces of darkness? like, the jedi force?

i kind of like the sci-fi twist, myself.



9,967 posts and counting.... lol
[Edited 2/6/05 10:24am]
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Reply #29 posted 02/06/05 10:45am

Cloudbuster

avatar

XxAxX said:

Cloudbuster said:



lol

Nothing of the sort. It's simply that I know how easy it is to sell a lie. And as far as I, and many other people are concerned, that's all religion is.



ok just wondering, if i may, how about this? would you be more attracted to the idea of religion if it turned out that the 'god' persona was a time traveler perhaps or a space traveler who has appeared and reappeared at different times and places across the planet to spread a message to humanity that will ultimately help us fight against the forces of darkness? like, the jedi force?

i kind of like the sci-fi twist, myself.


whofarted
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Forums > Politics & Religion > jesus was a copy of the pagan sun god mithras who was born 1400 bc to a virgin mother on 12/25, in a stable