So ESPN is rolling out its list of top 100 players ever. So far, they have revealed 81-100:

100. Shawn Kemp
99. Kevin Love
98. Gail Goodrich
97. James Harden
96. Bobby Jones
95. Marc Gasol
94. Mark Price
93. Lenny Wilkens
92. Nate Thurmond
91. Maurice Cheeks

90. Paul Arizin
89. Yao Ming
88. Billy Cunningham
87. Chauncey Billups
86. Chris Bosh
85. Dave DeBusschere
84. Dennis Johnson
83. Chris Mullin
82. David Thompson
81. Sidney Moncrief

Some pretty strange things. I can't see Kevin Love and Marc Gasol as top 100 players yet, much less that close to Nate Thurmond and Paul Arizin. I'm a bit surprised Billups is so low if they seem to be giving such a boost to modern players. Glad to see Bobby Jones and Maurice Cheeks on there - they seem underrated to me in general.

I know this is off topic, but I'm so happy Kyle Lowry got voted in as an all-star. It's going to an epic weekend in my great city of Toronto. Hubby and I will be there. Can't wait!

Empress said:

Moonbeam said:

So ESPN is rolling out its list of top 100 players ever. So far, they have revealed 81-100:

100. Shawn Kemp
99. Kevin Love
98. Gail Goodrich
97. James Harden
96. Bobby Jones
95. Marc Gasol
94. Mark Price
93. Lenny Wilkens
92. Nate Thurmond
91. Maurice Cheeks

90. Paul Arizin
89. Yao Ming
88. Billy Cunningham
87. Chauncey Billups
86. Chris Bosh
85. Dave DeBusschere
84. Dennis Johnson
83. Chris Mullin
82. David Thompson
81. Sidney Moncrief

Some pretty strange things. I can't see Kevin Love and Marc Gasol as top 100 players yet, much less that close to Nate Thurmond and Paul Arizin. I'm a bit surprised Billups is so low if they seem to be giving such a boost to modern players. Glad to see Bobby Jones and Maurice Cheeks on there - they seem underrated to me in general.

Chris Mullin may just be the most overrated modern player inducted into the NBA hall of fame.

duccichucka said:

Moonbeam said:

So ESPN is rolling out its list of top 100 players ever. So far, they have revealed 81-100:

100. Shawn Kemp
99. Kevin Love
98. Gail Goodrich
97. James Harden
96. Bobby Jones
95. Marc Gasol
94. Mark Price
93. Lenny Wilkens
92. Nate Thurmond
91. Maurice Cheeks

90. Paul Arizin
89. Yao Ming
88. Billy Cunningham
87. Chauncey Billups
86. Chris Bosh
85. Dave DeBusschere
84. Dennis Johnson
83. Chris Mullin
82. David Thompson
81. Sidney Moncrief

Some pretty strange things. I can't see Kevin Love and Marc Gasol as top 100 players yet, much less that close to Nate Thurmond and Paul Arizin. I'm a bit surprised Billups is so low if they seem to be giving such a boost to modern players. Glad to see Bobby Jones and Maurice Cheeks on there - they seem underrated to me in general.

Chris Mullin may just be the most overrated modern player inducted into the NBA hall of fame.

I agree that he is a little overrated, but there are worse HOF inductions, IMO. I'm not sure he's any worse than Mitch Richmond or Jamaal Wilkes.

60. Earl Monroe
59. Carmelo Anthony
58. Tony Parker
57. Robert Parish
56. Pau Gasol
55. Dave Cowens
54. Bernard King
53. Wes Unseld
52. Bob McAdoo
51. Reggie Miller

Melo and Monroe are waaayyyy too high, IMO. Both belong in the 91-100 section, if anywhere, I think.

50. Ray Allen
49. Russell Westbrook
48. Willis Reed
47. George Gervin
46. Allen Iverson
45. Paul Pierce
44. Dominque Wilkins
43. James Worthy
42. Bill Walton
41. Gary Payton

Westbrook doesn't belong this high yet. And as a Blazer fan, it pains me to say it, but Walton's peak was way too short for me to put him that high. 1.5 seasons of superstar play and then 2 good role player years does not make for a top 50 player, IMO.

I think Iverson is also too high, and I don't see what separates Nique and Worthy from Dantley and English other than highlights (Wilkins) and team success (Worthy).

40. Elvin Hayes
39. Bob Cousy
38. Clyde Frazier
37. Rick Barry
36. Clyde Drexler
35. Jason Kidd
34. Bob Pettit
33. George Mikan
32. Patrick Ewing
31. Kevin McHale

All of these guys pretty clearly belong in the top 100. I'm higher on Frazier, Drexler, Pettit, and Mikan, and lower on Cousy, McHale, and Hayes. Nothing too egregious here, though.

I'm not sure how Frazier is so behind Zeke, for one.

[Edited 2/1/16 16:25pm]

LittleBLUECorvette said:

McHale is the most overrated player ever. How is Ewing 5 spots over Drexler when they played in same era and Clyde has a title and more Finals appearances.

McHale made a lot of his hay dealing with single teams due to Bird's presence. He should be much closer to 50, IMO.

Clyde vs. Ewing is tough. I also side with Clyde, slightly, because I don't really factor in team success. Drexler had better chances for team success due to the makeup of his teams, I feel, and I say this as a Blazer fan. Both should be in the top 30, IMO.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

They have Steph Curry pretty high on this list. #23.

30. Steve Nash
29. Chris Paul
28. John Havlicek
27. Dwyane Wade
26. Isiah Thomas
25. Scottie Pippen
24. Elgin Baylor
23. Stephen Curry
22. Kevin Durant
21. Kevin Garnett

Yeah, if Curry and Durant retired today, I don't think there's any way they deserve this high of a ranking yet.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

nyse said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Moonbeam said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

They have Steph Curry pretty high on this list. #23.

30. Steve Nash
29. Chris Paul
28. John Havlicek
27. Dwyane Wade
26. Isiah Thomas
25. Scottie Pippen
24. Elgin Baylor
23. Stephen Curry
22. Kevin Durant
21. Kevin Garnett

Yeah, if Curry and Durant retired today, I don't think there's any way they deserve this high of a ranking yet.

Pippen 25? What a rip.

Tell me what players ahead of Pippen played better defense?

LittleBLUECorvette said:

LeBron is gonna be ranked over Kobe. No way in hell.

I think that's entirely reasonable. Kobe doesn't have a leg to stand on statistically. All you can go on to rank him ahead is rings and longevity of accolades (many of which are quite questionable).

Here's a post I made about Kobe's case for top 10 several months ago on RealGM:

I think Kobe's case for top 10 is one that takes accolades and titles into account more than I do. That's not to say it's unreasonable - I just don't have him there.

The number of championships a player's teams have won means little to me; my perception of the player's performance is everything. I tend to think of ranking players within a season as tantamount to considering a footrace and asking "who is the fastest runner?", but each player has a different starting point based on teammate quality, coaching, injuries, etc. Whoever crosses the finish line first by way of winning a title as a lead guy may not be the fastest runner.

If you approach it from a stats perspective, Kobe doesn't look like a strong top-10 candidate.

Career PER: 20th
Career Win Shares: 18th despite great longevity
Career WS/48: 42nd
Career Box Plus Minus (only available since 1974): 29th
Career VORP (only available since 1974): 16th

Career Playoff PER: 22nd
Career Playoff Win Shares: 8th
Career Playoff WS/48: 53rd
Career Playoff Box Plus Minus (only available since 1974): 39th
Career Playoff VORP (only available since 1974): 7th

Year by year:

Best season PER: 3rd in 2006, no other top 4 finishes
Best season Win Shares: 4th in 2006, 2007, and 2008
Best season in WS/48: 4th in 2004, no other top 5 finishes
Best season in Box Plus Minus: 5th in 2004
Best season in VORP: 3rd in 2008
Only twice in the top 10 of RAPM: 6th in 2008 and 9th in 2009

Of course the statistics don't tell us everything, and you could argue that a player's ultimate goal is to win championships, and Kobe has been excellent in this regard. In a sense, he often "did enough" for his team to win, so his statistical footprint in this regard might not be as great as someone like LeBron during the postseason in 2015, because he didn't have to individually produce as much for his team to achieve that goal.

Kobe is such a polarizing figure in part because his fan base and those who dislike him try to outdo each other to rile the other side up, it seems. I post on a Facebook page where many (perhaps even most) people have Kobe in their top 5, some as high as number 1. These fans often denigrate other great players like Duncan, LeBron, or MJ in order to prop up Kobe. As a reaction to this, you get people suggesting that "Shaq carried Kobe", laugh at the record for most missed field goals, etc. It gets to a point where you feel you have to walk on eggshells in order to have a conversation about him without inciting an angry response from someone. Honestly, I can't think of a more polarizing player, though LeBron is close.

As such, it's often fruitless to discuss Kobe's place in history. I've often been labelled as being a "hater" or "disrespectful" to Kobe for not having him in the top 10. My response to this is usually to provide a list of players I have ahead of him, which without fail draws a response of "you can't be serious - how can you have X ahead of Kobe?", to which I provide reasons for why I am high on player X and say, "why are you disrespectful of X?", but it generally stops there. Honestly, I think part of it is with the value we place in the number 10. There is something special about being "top 10" that doesn't feel the same as "top 15", even if there really isn't that big of a difference in the level of greatness in that region of the list.

I've got Kobe at 14th overall, but I could see an argument for him anywhere from 8-20 or so. If I see Kobe higher than that, I generally assume that person is a big Kobe fan, and that's ok! I think we all are prone to overvalue our favorites. I had Dantley at #45 when I made my list, and I'm sure some would balk at that. The nature of ranking players is a subjective exercise, and a lot of people take these rankings very much to heart.

nyse said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Ewing went to the Finals also, just in that same era Drexler did better. Both had the same type of teams, Portland more offense heavy and NY more defense. They're the same level of player in the same era, percent for a comparison. And DJ was the best player on a championship team in those 79 Sonics. He was also a better defender but that's besides the point and Stockton had a better career.

Indeed and good post. Your previous post mentioned that how could ewing be ranked higher but then you gave examples of team achievements like having more finals appearances and a title... rather than personal statistics. But i do agree they are the same level of player in the same era

Yeah, ring counting is lame. Ewing and Drexler are about the same level to me, but not because of any intrinsic team success argument. Both were underrated by the list, IMO. I think both are top 30 players.

20. David Robinson
19. John Stockton
18. Charles Barkley
17. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Karl Malone
15. Moses Malone
14. Julius Erving
13. Jerry West
12. Kobe Bryant
11. Oscar Robertson

Nothing seems too egregious here, though I think Stockton is a bit too high. Looks like ESPN and I share 9 of the same top 10, though I won't take any pride in that given how wonky I think most of their list is.

Moonbeam said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Moonbeam said:

I think that's entirely reasonable. Kobe doesn't have a leg to stand on statistically. All you can go on to rank him ahead is rings and longevity of accolades (many of which are quite questionable).

Here's a post I made about Kobe's case for top 10 several months ago on RealGM:

I think Kobe's case for top 10 is one ithat takes accolades and titles into account more than I do. That's not to say it's unreasonable - I just don't have him there.

The number of championships a player's teams have won means little to me; my perception of the player's performance is everything. I tend to think of ranking players within a season as tantamount to considering a footrace and asking "who is the fastest runner?", but each player has a different starting point based on teammate quality, coaching, injuries, etc. Whoever crosses the finish line first by way of winning a title as a lead guy may not be the fastest runner.

If you approach it from a stats perspective, Kobe doesn't look like a strong top-10 candidate.

Career PER: 20th
Career Win Shares: 18th despite great longevity
Career WS/48: 42nd
Career Box Plus Minus (only available since 1974): 29th
Career VORP (only available since 1974): 16th

Career Playoff PER: 22nd
Career Playoff Win Shares: 8th
Career Playoff WS/48: 53rd
Career Playoff Box Plus Minus (only available since 1974): 39th
Career Playoff VORP (only available since 1974): 7th

Year by year:

Best season PER: 3rd in 2006, no other top 4 finishes
Best season Win Shares: 4th in 2006, 2007, and 2008
Best season in WS/48: 4th in 2004, no other top 5 finishes
Best season in Box Plus Minus: 5th in 2004
Best season in VORP: 3rd in 2008
Only twice in the top 10 of RAPM: 6th in 2008 and 9th in 2009

Of course the statistics don't tell us everything, and you could argue that a player's ultimate goal is to win championships, and Kobe has been excellent in this regard. In a sense, he often "did enough" for his team to win, so his statistical footprint in this regard might not be as great as someone like LeBron during the postseason in 2015, because he didn't have to individually produce as much for his team to achieve that goal.

Kobe is such a polarizing figure in part because his fan base and those who dislike him try to outdo each other to rile the other side up, it seems. I post on a Facebook page where many (perhaps even most) people have Kobe in their top 5, some as high as number 1. These fans often denigrate other great players like Duncan, LeBron, or MJ in order to prop up Kobe. As a reaction to this, you get people suggesting that "Shaq carried Kobe", laugh at the record for most missed field goals, etc. It gets to a point where you feel you have to walk on eggshells in order to have a conversation about him without inciting an angry response from someone. Honestly, I can't think of a more polarizing player, though LeBron is close.

As such, it's often fruitless to discuss Kobe's place in history. I've often been labelled as being a "hater" or "disrespectful" to Kobe for not having him in the top 10. My response to this is usually to provide a list of players I have ahead of him, which without fail draws a response of "you can't be serious - how can you have X ahead of Kobe?", to which I provide reasons for why I am high on player X and say, "why are you disrespectful of X?", but it generally stops there. Honestly, I think part of it is with the value we place in the number 10. There is something special about being "top 10" that doesn't feel the same as "top 15", even if there really isn't that big of a difference in the level of greatness in that region of the list.

I've got Kobe at 14th overall, but I could see an argument for him anywhere from 8-20 or so. If I see Kobe higher than that, I generally assume that person is a big Kobe fan, and that's ok! I think we all are prone to overvalue our favorites. I had Dantley at #45 when I made my list, and I'm sure some would balk at that. The nature of ranking players is a subjective exercise, and a lot of people take these rankings very much to heart.

I've seen both guys whole career and Kobe is the better player.

I've seen both of their whole careers as well, and I think LeBron is the better player. We all see the game differently.

Moonbeam said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Moonbeam said:

I've seen both of their whole careers as well, and I think LeBron is the better player. We all see the game differently.

Bron is the more physically imposing player but not better. I bet if you took a poll from their peers in who's better, Kobe wins in a landslide.

It depends on what you value. LeBron is more dominant than Kobe by a fair amount, IMO, and he's already had enough of a career to overcome Kobe's longevity advantage.

Moonbeam said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Moonbeam said: