Fonkyman said:

I've lost all track of this, what the fuck was this thread all about again? What's my name, where am I? I've got right into all that gymnastics.

Isn't this pretty much child pornography? If this is really a grown woman, I apologise.

if not for ali,

there would have been no search for

THE GREAT WHITE HOPE!!!

it was pittifull the way they kept lettin quarry

get bet senseless for no reason other than to give

hope to the masses

Tittypants said:

Fonkyman said:

I've lost all track of this, what the fuck was this thread all about again? What's my name, where am I? I've got right into all that gymnastics.

Isn't this pretty much child pornography? If this is really a grown woman, I apologise.

this is when one goes to court and says

"judge, do whut you gotta do, I DID!!!"

KingBAD said:

Tittypants said:

Isn't this pretty much child pornography? If this is really a grown woman, I apologise.

this is when one goes to court and says

"judge, do whut you gotta do, I DID!!!"

KingBAD said:

if not for ali,

there would have been no search for

THE GREAT WHITE HOPE!!!

it was pittifull the way they kept lettin quarry

get bet senseless for no reason other than to give

hope to the masses

Jack Johnson would disagree with you.

Quarry didn't stand a chance with Ali anyways... he was a journeyman. Ali at that point while not as fast as he was in his '60s heyday still had the punching power to humilate Quarry, and he did.

But Ali was the first dude since Johnson that people were trying to hype Quarry the way they were. Was the Chuck Wepner fight hyped the same way as Quarry's or was just this the imagination of Sylvester Stallone when he did Rocky, which was really an homage to both Wepner and Ali?

Tittypants said:

Isn't this pretty much child pornography? If this is really a grown woman, I apologise.

I hope she's grown, otherwise, somebody better take it out!

Keeping it Ali, isn't it interesting that when Malcolm X recommended him to join the NOI in '64, his original converted name was Cassius X? A week later, it was Muhammad X and then Muhammad Ali a week after that. I'm guessing the NOI member who picked that name knew how much money would be in that name... I think when you join the NOI, they're the ones who pick the name, not let the person themselves pick it. In other words, he was named after someone that was allegedly "given" to him and then had his new name or names given to him after joining the sect. Which I find very ironic.

I also think he knew "Cassius Clay", as great of a name it might've been (since it was named after an ex-slave owner turned abolitionist) didn't scream big money bucks as big as "Muhammad Ali". You couldn't sell tickets if your name was Muhammad X... also interesting, I'm hearing that Ali isn't a Muslim anymore but is part of the Sufi sect or whatever it's called...

Interesting interview with Muhammad Ali's only biological son, Muhammad, Jr. (he has an adopted son Assad, who I assumed is in his 20s now):

When celebrity promoter and friend, Howard Gosser, out of Kentucky, offered to put me in contact with Muhammad Ali Jr., I seized the opportunity.

I could only imagine what it would be like to grow up with the kind of fame and adulation connected with his famous father. I mean my dad, Charlie, is just a regular guy, no fanfare, he took me to baseball games and boxing matches, My Dad played with me in the backyard and the parks, sparred with me in the living room, played a mean game of pool, and laughed a lot. I never considered the idea that just maybe the children of these celebrity parents just want a plain old, loving Charlie, like I am still fortunate to have.

Muhammad Jr. may not be like any other famous offspring; however, it wouldn’t surprise me to find out that his experience is not that uncommon. His lifestyle is anything but that of the Rich & Famous. Howard Gosser, nearing 80, still a stirring example of entrepreneurial spirit, has helped Ali’s financial situation by having Muhammad Jr. travel a bit and capitalize on his name by selling autographs at Meet & Greets and similar events. Muhammad Jr. speaks of writing a book of his life and experiences as the son of “The Greatest”, however, the process required to accomplish this goal has not yet begun.

While I found Muhammad pleasant and willing to share, I also found him naïve in his life’s expectations. The basics as I learned them from my dad were to set goals, work hard, forgiveness, honesty, and a constant striving for a prideful life. These rules were the riches passed on to my children. Money and fame could be great, no doubt, however, without the basics, quite unfulfilling and fleeting. These rules are so firmly entrenched that should we stray it’s a comparatively easy process to regroup, forgive ourselves, forgive our adversaries, and move forward. I’d like to think that Muhammad is capable of doing just that.

DH: Tell me a little of yourself. What day were you born, etc.?

I was born in Philadelphia on May 14, 1972. Which is actually on Mother’s Day, so I was a Mother’s Day gift. And guess what; my mother predicted that I would be born on Mother’s Day, so actually the predictions in the family started with my mother. I think my father got his predictions from my mother. He took a lot of qualities from my mother, when he was boxing and everything. Even the poetry, my mother used to rhyme and do a lot of poetry. She started him doing that.

DH: What is your mother’s name?

Khalilah Ali, aka, Belinda Boyd.

DH: How is your mother doing?

She’s still around, she’s in Florida.

DH: Do you see her much?

No, no, I see her just as much as I see my father. Which is to say, not very often.

DH: Do you speak with them much?

I talk to my mother every time I get the chance. It’s hard to talk to my father because his wife, Lonnie, blocks him from talking to me. Fame changes people. It makes them do what their not supposed to do. If they really love a person, their supposed to do certain things.

DH: I understand that it’s difficult to communicate with your dad these days anyway, is that correct?

Every time I want my father to come and see me she says that,” We have to come up to Michigan, gas is too expensive and we don’t have money like that”. Then she takes him all around the world. And I’m living here on 71st & Western, off of Lincoln, here in Chicago, Illinois.

DH: Is that a rough area?

Yeah, it’s a drug-infested neighborhood.

DH: Are you married?

Yes, I’ve been married for 4 years.

DH: Do you have children?

Well, ugh, I have three children, but one of them didn’t make it.

DH: I’m sorry.

Yeah, I tried to get my father to go to the hospital before she past, and Lonnie wouldn’t take him there once. I was calling and calling him to come see my kid before she past away, but she would never return my calls. And then she never brought my father to my daughter’s funeral. Did you ever hear of Herbert Muhammad?

DH: Yes

Well, he passed away and she took him to his funeral, and his funeral was on the same day, right after my daughters. But that’s what you get when you marry somebody that doesn’t love you, except for your money.

DH: What about you Muhammad, are you working?

Actually, I’m out of work and I’m actually looking for a job as we speak. I have to look for a job and it’s not easy to look for a job nowadays because all the jobs are not in the United States. All the jobs are overseas.

DH: Really, what kind of work do you do?

I used to do electrical work with my father-in-law, but I don’t really have a trade.

DH: That certainly makes it difficult, doesn’t it?

I need to go back to school to pick up a trade, but first I have to go back to get my high school diploma, you know, my GED.

DH: What benefits did you have from being Muhammad Ali Jr.?

No. And I’m not doing so good now anyway. It’s not a surprise that I’m not doing so good. Even Rahman, my dad’s brother, is not doing so good. My dad will not even go see his brother.

DH: What about your brothers and sisters, do you keep in contact with them?

I don’t have any brothers, the brother I have is adopted. I haven’t seen my sisters because I’m trying to without them in my life.

DH: What are you doing with Howard Gossman?

We go on celebrity, Hollywood Collector Shows. That way I can sell my autographs and stuff. We’re trying to get my name out there because I’m writing a book about the story of my life. I’m trying to get that off the ground. I’m gonna do that everyday, piece-by-piece, everyday that goes by.

DH: Good luck with that. How close are you to finishing the book?

You know it will be everything that has happened in my life, everything.

DH: How close are you to finishing that book?

I’m gonna need some help with that also.

DH: Do you have someone helping you arrange the content?

No, no one, I’m doing it all myself.

DH: Has Howard helped you in getting a publisher?

He said he would, but nothing has happened yet. No nothing has happened so far. I gotta do what I gotta do first.

DH: Stick with Howard, he’s a good guy. Follow through.

Yeah, he’s a good guy. I have too test the waters; I have to test them because like my father, I have to test people.

DH: Did you ever box or attempt other sports?

Nah, that wasn’t my cup of tea. God didn’t put in my heart to get mad enough to hit anybody.

DH: Beside the book, what else are you working on?

Just to get my life in order. Just gotta keep going.

DH: Well, I sure wish you well. Is there anything you’d like to add for the readers? Something about your dad or anyone else?

I’d like to give them a piece of advice. “Do not depend on family”. Do things yourself if you want to get things done. I’d like to say something else, “If anybody in your family or you get famous, leave something for your children, before you get married to somebody else“. Leave a Trust Fund; leave something in the world for your children. I know how it is not to be left anything. I would also like to let the world know that my fathers’ wife married him for money. She does not love him, because if she did, she would help out his kids in need, she wouldn’t let us go hungry and it’s just terrible how people do things. But that’s life. If you need to fight for something, fight for it while you can.

DH: Well you have the right attitude. You know that you can’t depend on anyone and must do it yourself.

And keep god as your friend, ‘cause with God as your friend, you don’t need nobody else.

[Edited 10/1/12 20:10pm]

Timmy84 said:

And I’m living here on 71st & Western, off of Lincoln, here in Chicago, Illinois.

Dang!!...He's lives around my way

And yes, that is an drug infested area

HuMpThAnG said:

Timmy84 said:

And I’m living here on 71st & Western, off of Lincoln, here in Chicago, Illinois.

Dang!!...He's lives around my way

And yes, that is an drug infested area

I hope for dude's sake he's not a drug addict. I read somewhere he had developing problems as a child and may have been autistic. He looks more like his mother than his father least in that picture. Maryum and May-May Ali look like Muhammad spit them out.

You know, his story and Khalilah's (not his second ex-wife but his daughter) story from '01 about Ali not really being an attentive father kinda remind me of Rain Pryor's stories about her father Richard. I wouldn't be surprised if Lonnie WAS keeping Ali's kids away from seeing him or talking to him because some wives of legends who have kids cut all contact. Sugar Ray Robinson's children was cut off from talking with him (as was his ex-wife that he remained close to before then) and Joe Louis' children complained that his final wife cut them from talking to him. So if the same thing is happening with Ali, it's no shock. Something about Lonnie Ali rubs me the wrong way, like she's another person to use and abuse Ali, who was probably used and abused in his whole life even during his heyday.

Tittypants said:

Isn't this pretty much child pornography? If this is really a grown woman, I apologise.

Eeeuwwww! Why d'ya put that in there, so to speak.. lol.

I just googled Gymnast or something and found it. I know nuffin, bout the muffin. No idea who it is but I'm assuming she's a grown woman and can cook a good breakfast.

KingBAD said:

this is when one goes to court and says "judge, do whut you gotta do, I DID!!!"

Now that is fec-KingBAD.

Timmy84 said:

I hope she's grown, otherwise, somebody better take it out!

Fuck it, that's enough o that for me. I'd chop it out but I can't change everybodys posts now can I.

Maybe something a lil more serious from the gymnastic field? Ladies & Gentleman, Susanne:

Ok? So we've covered the gymnastic drift-off I hope. That has to be one of the finest 'athletes' of all time right there.

And back to the boxing....

uPtoWnNY said:

As for great heavyweights, gotta give props to Jack Johnson. To do what he did, at that horrible period of U.S. history, was incredible.

Definitely. I was thinking of him earlier but couldn't remember his name. I thought I wouldn't look it up as it's cheating the grey matter a bit and I let it bug me for an hour or so. Good shout. My brain's turning to shit and I'd prolly still be scratching me head til next Tuesday.

Ali though, was he overrated? Forget the bullshit and the race bollocks and the way everyone played him. what about the way he played it in the ring. Nothin overrated about it for me. You only have to watch the fights.

Timmy84 said:

kinda remind me of Rain Pryor's stories about her father Richard.

Please, for my sake, try not to remind me of Richard Pryor too much. I can't handle it. He rips me up. He fought Ali too one time. Now he really was one o the greatest. ""Air just say fuck it"

Fonkyman said:

Timmy84 said:

I couldn't disagree more. I'd even go so far as to say BOLLOCKS! With a smile. Especially when you include feckin rounders in with all that. If you gave a caveman a stick and threw stones at him, how long do you think it'd take him to work out how to hit em away? Football, or soccer if you must, is a team game. If you have a bad day, or you're just a bit shit, you can 'go missing' and get away with it for a while. You wont get your head taken off for missing a volley. Football, or American pansy-rugby, is another team game, when they're not stopping the game to scratch their arses every 2 minutes. Baseball, well, that's rounders but still, another team game. Wrestling is just grown men cuddling and getting sweaty, far too much nut-sniffing for me but at least it's one on one.

There's nowhere to hide in boxing. If you have an off day, you get your arse kicked. You might even be killed or seriously maimed. Nigel Benn v Gerald Mcclellan comes to mind. Probably the worst fight I ever saw. Not because of the boxing but because of the outcome and the fact that when Nigel got knocked out of the ring I was screaming "Kill him Nige" and he got up and very nearly did. Doesn't matter if you've got a good chin with a few one-twos, you wont get very far if you've got nothing more. We could all call ourselves Boxers, Footballers, Astronauts or anything else but to actually be one and a successful one at that, is a very different matter.

I'm not talking about modern day fighters so much. Nowadays it seems any twat can get in the ring and get hit, plenty have made a good career doing just that. Look at what's around now, it's an embarrassment to the sport. There's been a few chancers in the past but nothing like on todays scale.

Have a look at Joe Calzaghe vs. Jeff Lacy, then come back and tell us there's more skill in rounders.

I have to acknowledge the questionable motivations behind watching and enjoying the spectacle of big-time boxing, if only because of that Benn fight which was for sure the most intense sporting event I've ever witnessed. But then the most famous image of Boxing is perhaps two huge guys, Ali and Frazier, pounding each other in Manila for 14 rounds until they nearly died which wasn't too dissimilar.

Lacy was an overhyped slug, made Calzaghe look colossal though.

elmer said:

I have to acknowledge the questionable motivations behind watching and enjoying the spectacle of big-time boxing, if only because of that Benn fight which was for sure the most intense sporting event I've ever witnessed. But then the most famous image of Boxing is perhaps two huge guys, Ali and Frazier, pounding each other in Manila for 14 rounds until they nearly died which wasn't too dissimilar.

Lacy was an overhyped slug, made Calzaghe look colossal though.

I never watched boxing the same way after that Benn fight. As for Joe, 46/0 aint a bad record is it.

There's been rumors over the years about some of Ali's fights:

In their 1963 Birmingham bout, Ali, who was still Cassius Clay, faced Henry Cooper, who knocked him down in the fourth round. It's speculated - though not confirmed - that Ali's trainer Angelo Dundee, loosen the ropes to give Ali time to readjust before he got back out there and beat Cooper to submission.

11 years later in the infamous Rumble in the Jungle in 1974 with George Foreman, Dundee told the people handling the ropes to have the ropes loosen so it would Ali to back up and force Foreman to give him his best shots as an excuse to tire Foreman out. Foreman would later say in his 2009 autobiography that he felt someone had poisoned him just before he and Ali fought and therefore he felt incapicated.

In their first rematch against each other earlier that same year, Joe Frazier's people accused the referee in their fight of allowing Ali to hold Frazier's arms to keep Frazier from punching him forcing a decision on Ali's part. A year later, when they fought in the Philippines, it was said that Ali almost lost the fight because he was the first person to quit but he didn't make the announcement because his manager at the time, Herbert Muhammad, forced him to not quit despite the fact that by this point Ali had been overwhelmed by Frazier's punches and the heat. Frazier, despite now being blind in both eyes (he fought one-eyed his entire professional career), still wanted to continue but Eddie Futch wouldn't have none of it. It's said if Ali did indeed had his gloves cut before Futch made his decision, Frazier would've been declared the champion by TKO despite Ali's flurries for the four rounds in the fight after Frazier had dominated him in the middle rounds.

Of course there's the controversial decisions given to Ali against Jimmy Young, Earnie Shavers (who pummelled Ali but probably went overboard with it and since Ali had a "flurry" but missed his target, the refs gave it to Ali) and Kenny Norton in their third fight was probably because Don King or Ali's people made deals with refs to not give Ali the win.

----

Again that's not to take from his wins or anything but it shows that Ali if anything was a master of deception. In addition those so-called brutal fights where Ali "punished" Floyd Patterson and Ernie Terrell for calling him "Clay" were media stunts too. Plus Terrell was thumbed a lot of times by Ali's glove which made seeing difficulty allowing Ali to taunt him. With Patterson, they had made a deal in which he called him "Clay" and then Ali would taunt him but allegedly Patterson already had health issues leading up to the fight so Ali's "brutality" wasn't really what got Patterson during that fight. They still remained friends too. Don't know about Terrell but I know Ali still held Patterson to a high regard.

Also, we have to remember that between his conviction and stripping of his boxing belts and his return to the ring (1967-1970) that Ali lost three years of fighting. Therefore when he returned in 1970, Ali was already a shell of what he used to be. Ali still had the manipulation powers and the media savvy, however, to make his fights events and the media loved him as the court jester because that's all he really was. He was the 1960s/1970s Floyd Mayweather/Roy Jones Jr./Bernard Hopkins.

So I think three years missing in action brings a cause of what would've been had Ali, oh I don't know, had accepted to go to Vietnam just for exhibition boxing matches for six months like the select service was about to give him until he was told he couldn't go because "Elijah Muhammad won't let me go" as Sugar Ray Robinson once said. Three years lost. "The Fight of the Century" saved his career, I think, and the Rumble in the Jungle and Thrilla in Manila sustained it. Without it, I doubt anyone would've admired Ali as much as they do now. Joe Frazier and George Foreman were key to making Ali "the greatest".

Another strange twist is how the myth of Ali has carried on for years.

The real reasoning behind some of the events that occurred in Ali's life: the supposed fight in Louisville that led Ali to throw his Olympic medal in the river, the joining the Nation of Islam, the name change from Cassius Clay to Muhammad Ali, his refusal to serve troops in Vietnam, the buildup of his Frazier and Foreman fights, etc., would derail their efforts to make Ali appear to be "more than boxing".

He already was bigger than boxing because he had strong celebrity power. He knew the power of the media and used it to his advantage. That's what made him great. It wasn't necessarily what he did in the ring. But even Ali himself has made up stories: there's two accounts of him throwing his medal after he won: one was that a neo Nazi gang had beaten him up near the bridge before he was able to "beat them up", another was being told he couldn't be served in a diner because of his color. Lots of folks in Ali's life denied these stories saying he lost it somewhere and couldn't find it again. When he got a replacement medal in 1996, it was only for media purposes, not for any kind of sympathy for Ali's supposed fight against racism (ironic he later said some racist vile like beating up anyone for marrying or romantically loving a person of another color and then ironically calling anyone who didn't support his racist views as "Uncle Toms" and then calling the man who partially helped him get his license back "ignorant" and a "gorilla" as well as "Uncle Tom").

As for joining the NOI, no one seriously considered him until after he won the first Liston fight. Before the fight, he had been mentored by Malcolm X, who unbeknownst to Ali, was about to leave the NOI after he expressed his concerns about Elijah Muhammad leading the NOI to doom for being a liar and cheater having mistresses and such. After the win, Elijah Muhammad changed his mind and got Ali in the NOI. The breakup in the friendship between Ali and Malcolm occurred when Elijah renamed him Muhammad Ali. Initially he was Cassius X. Him being renamed Muhammad Ali broke them up for good and Ali in turn turned on Malcolm, calling him a "traitor" and even agreeing with the NOI that "something needs to be done about Malcolm". In books talking about this, no one ever said that Ali was ever remorseful about his betrayal to Malcolm. Years later, when his handlers put out "Soul of a Butterfly", Ali is quoted as saying that he faced strong regret over his betrayal of Malcolm X. In 2002, during an interview with David Frost, Ali said softly that he "loved" Malcolm. His refusal to serve Vietnam could be looked on as heroic in one sense and more of a media creation in the other. It was said the real reason he didn't fight in Vietnam was because he was told not to. Elijah Muhammad himself refused to fight with the US after his draft notice because he thought Japan would "wipe them whities out". In reference to "Viet Cong", a communist party in North Vietnam that was trying to turn South Vietnam in a communist party, Ali said "I ain't got no quarrel against them Viet Cong". Now allegedly he was told to say this. One of his former NOI advisers coached him to say it. Before hand, Ali didn't know anything about Viet Cong and with his naivete he probably still didn't. He just did whatever Elijah and his people told him to do.

In essence, that makes Ali, to me, a political and religious fraud. Because if he was really such a conscientious objector (which is allowed) and "true believer" of Islam, then why would he be so clueless as to what was really going on over there? In Ali's words, he didn't become a true believer of Islam until "somewhere around 1983". Apparently also, his stance as conscientious objector is questionable because when he told the press he wouldn't fight it was because he didn't wanna be in the same group of "nonbelievers (of Islam)" and that "it's a Christian's, or white man's, war" and he wouldn't fight unless the (Dis)honorable Elijah Muhammad told him to or Allah told him to. He was a political pawn, straight up.

And then he used his media powers and racism to get people to turn against Frazier, who had death threats against him during the first Ali fight and had to have his family get protection from police because the NOI wanted to kill Frazier. Allegedly the NOI did the same thing to Liston, that's why Liston got the hell out of Dodge after their fight in Maine. "Ali's a nut", Liston later said. But Ali could also backfire in his wording. When in Zaire, he told the press to Foreman that he and his African friends will "put you in a pot" and Africans angrily so told him "that's not in the best promotional interests of a country on the move". The naming "Rumble in the Jungle" even upset Africans, yet you don't hear about these issues because the media has wiped them out.

This guy even naively bragged about chatting with dictators like Mobutu and Idi Amin and Muammar al-Qaddafi without really knowing how ruthless and evil they were though he later said that he was spooked out by Amin because Amin drunkenly challenged him to a fight even putting out a gun and pointing it to Ali's fight and thousands of dollars and before Ali could make a decision, Amin said "sike" and dropped his gun on his soup.

Even now, the man is used as a pawn as Parkinson's syndrome has gradually destroyed him. The man's given all these honors because of all these myths that made the man seem larger than life. It's quite sad when we are told about Ali we're led to believe of how much of a champion he was in and outside the ring. Hearing these stories makes you wonder how powerful media myths are. They seem to be strong in Ali's case.

Of course Frazier & Foreman were keys to Ali's success. In order to be considered great, you have to beat great competition. Like Magic said, "playing Larry Bird brings out the best in me".

I've found a story around the 1980 Moscow Olympics when then-president Jimmy Carter sent Ali to Africa to get Africa's approval to boycott those year's Olympics and Africans were pissed off with Ali so much they claim Ali "betrayed his race". Needless to say it was a bust.

Timmy84 said:

Again, this is not to knock the great man but I just felt I had to do this topic...

It's been burning in my head for a while.

Like a kid I was always told about how Ali was "the greatest" without really explaining why, mainly just going on his own words and everything.

From the fights I saw, I'll say this: at his heyday he had great stamina, he had a wicked punch and when his blows connected, it was indeed enough to "shake up the world" as he would say as an arrogant 22-year-old who just knocked out Sonny Liston when he still went by Cassius Clay, Jr.

My thing is from even the fights in his heyday, some of the fighters who fought him were either ill (George Foreman had health problems the night of their fight) or affected by present or past injuries (Cleveland Williams' bullet wounds; Joe Frazier being partially blind in one eye; Floyd Patterson breaking his back a few days before the fight) or Ali did something in the ring to mess them up (thumbing Ernie Terrell's eye so he couldn't see; holding on to his opponent's ropes or even the referee being sneaky to help Ali).

It kinda takes away from Ali a little. Also, for as much as he catered to the media to joke and play around, when the cameras weren't around he taunted his opponents with anything (Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier and George Foreman recounted some tactics Ali would throw that wasn't caught on camera).

Plus Ali got knocked down by Chuck Wepner and rumors had it that the referee was more hesitant to call Ali out then when Wepner was knocked out. Plus he almost gave up in his final fight with Joe Frazier telling Angelo Dundee and Freddie Pacheco to cut his gloves before Eddie Futch told Joe not to go on (despite Joe's obviously angry refusal not to).

But in your view, what makes Ali overrated or what makes Ali earn the credentials he get? I'm not saying he's overrated (obviously the media overrates a lot of legends) but I just wanted to see what your opinions are because it seems like people are all unanimous that Ali is "the greatest". But what's it as a fighter or as what he did off the ring? Because to me he seemed more flawed offstage than on but what y'all think?

[Edited 9/30/12 19:40pm]

How is this burning in your head when you don't care?

Who isn't more flawed offstage?

What are you expectations? Apparently he isn't meeting them. Sucks to be him I guess . . . . .

SUPRMAN said:

Timmy84 said:

Again, this is not to knock the great man but I just felt I had to do this topic...

It's been burning in my head for a while.

Like a kid I was always told about how Ali was "the greatest" without really explaining why, mainly just going on his own words and everything.

From the fights I saw, I'll say this: at his heyday he had great stamina, he had a wicked punch and when his blows connected, it was indeed enough to "shake up the world" as he would say as an arrogant 22-year-old who just knocked out Sonny Liston when he still went by Cassius Clay, Jr.

My thing is from even the fights in his heyday, some of the fighters who fought him were either ill (George Foreman had health problems the night of their fight) or affected by present or past injuries (Cleveland Williams' bullet wounds; Joe Frazier being partially blind in one eye; Floyd Patterson breaking his back a few days before the fight) or Ali did something in the ring to mess them up (thumbing Ernie Terrell's eye so he couldn't see; holding on to his opponent's ropes or even the referee being sneaky to help Ali).

It kinda takes away from Ali a little. Also, for as much as he catered to the media to joke and play around, when the cameras weren't around he taunted his opponents with anything (Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier and George Foreman recounted some tactics Ali would throw that wasn't caught on camera).

Plus Ali got knocked down by Chuck Wepner and rumors had it that the referee was more hesitant to call Ali out then when Wepner was knocked out. Plus he almost gave up in his final fight with Joe Frazier telling Angelo Dundee and Freddie Pacheco to cut his gloves before Eddie Futch told Joe not to go on (despite Joe's obviously angry refusal not to).

But in your view, what makes Ali overrated or what makes Ali earn the credentials he get? I'm not saying he's overrated (obviously the media overrates a lot of legends) but I just wanted to see what your opinions are because it seems like people are all unanimous that Ali is "the greatest". But what's it as a fighter or as what he did off the ring? Because to me he seemed more flawed offstage than on but what y'all think?

[Edited 9/30/12 19:40pm]

How is this burning in your head when you don't care?

Who isn't more flawed offstage?

What are you expectations? Apparently he isn't meeting them. Sucks to be him I guess . . . . .

He has to care, to some extent, if it's been burning in his head for awhile. Where in his posting does it said he doesn't care?

Timmy84 said:

funkycat00 said:

How about Iron Mike?

In a way? Yes. Because most of the guys he fought including the guy he first took the championship from - Trevor Berbick - were all journeyman type of boxers. He had a nasty punch though and early in his career his boxing skills were as impressive as Ali's but overall, yeah I can see why he can be seen as overrated. As pointed out, Ali did face a lot of talented fighters in his heyday - Frazier, Foreman, Liston, etc. But it's a question as to how his fights with all these boxers were. It's understandable though. Ali was the face of boxing between 1964 and 1978 and Tyson replaced Sugar Ray Leonard as the face between 1986 and 1990. So both of these fighters were overrated. We forget Ali's first fights before Liston were mainly journeymen too until Archie Moore fought him in 1962. He faced some journeyman when he returned from his exile in 1970 until he fought Frazier. But I can see why Tyson's overrated.

Do you think Sugar Ray Leonard is overrated? As much as I like him, I hate to say it. Many years later, I kinda wonder about that fight between him and Roberto Duran.

^ Yeah he's overrated to the hilt. Marvin Hagler could've won their fight if the ref in the fight wasn't being paid by Ray's promoters, same with Roberto Duran in their second bout. Ray can claim he outsmarted Marvin but I know the truth. Marvin reminds me of Joe Frazier: a great fighter, misunderstood and riled in the press for no damn reason. The media created them as villains to go against the men they created as heroes: Sugar Ray "I was on cocaine when I fought Hagler" Leonard and Muhammad "poisoned by Elijah Muhammad and his goons and his managers" Ali.

[Edited 10/7/12 22:56pm]

Beautifulstarr123 said:

SUPRMAN said:

How is this burning in your head when you don't care?

Who isn't more flawed offstage?

What are you expectations? Apparently he isn't meeting them. Sucks to be him I guess . . . . .

He has to care, to some extent, if it's been burning in his head for awhile. Where in his posting does it said he doesn't care?

I do care. Ali was brainwashed to the hilt by everybody. He's being used now as a freaking sideshow with people putting words in his mouth since his puglistic Parkinson started affecting him in the late 1970s and early 1980s. The man was never a hero, he was used and abused and the media that embraces him rather not hear the truth, rather not know about his own dirty deeds in the ring trying to make him into this perfect fighter who also happen to refuse to serve in Vietnam due to religious beliefs (when it was clearly a string pulling by Elijah Muhammad). Malcolm X recalled he wasn't really much of a leader either until he left the NOI in 1964. He recalled the years he spent in the NOI as a "zombie" for twelve years. So if Malcolm (or as he renamed himself after leaving the NOI, El-Hajj Malik el Shabazz) felt like he was a zombie with his puppet strings being pulled by Elijah's racist ass, what the hell does that make Ali?

[Edited 10/7/12 23:02pm]

Timmy84 said:

^ Yeah he's overrated to the hilt. Marvin Hagler could've won their fight if the ref in the fight wasn't being paid by Ray's promoters, same with Roberto Duran in their second bout. Ray can claim he outsmarted Marvin but I know the truth. Marvin reminds me of Joe Frazier: a great fighter, misunderstood and riled in the press for no damn reason. The media created them as villains to go against the men they created as heroes: Sugar Ray "I was on cocaine when I fought Hagler" Leonard and Muhammad "poisoned by Elijah Muhammad and his goons and his managers" Ali.

[Edited 10/7/12 22:56pm]

Roberto lost that fight based on Ray actually fighting with his head and boxed Duran from the outside instead of trying to be macho and fight Duran's fight which as a welterweight was more inside. Roberto quit on his stool because he knew he was outclassed with that style Ray was using, he had no shot. To make a fighter like Roberto Duran quit is some all time stuff

Marvin cost himself that fight with Ray by not letting his hands go more, he was WAY too passive IMO.

Abdul said:

Timmy84 said:

^ Yeah he's overrated to the hilt. Marvin Hagler could've won their fight if the ref in the fight wasn't being paid by Ray's promoters, same with Roberto Duran in their second bout. Ray can claim he outsmarted Marvin but I know the truth. Marvin reminds me of Joe Frazier: a great fighter, misunderstood and riled in the press for no damn reason. The media created them as villains to go against the men they created as heroes: Sugar Ray "I was on cocaine when I fought Hagler" Leonard and Muhammad "poisoned by Elijah Muhammad and his goons and his managers" Ali.

[Edited 10/7/12 22:56pm]

Roberto lost that fight based on Ray actually fighting with his head and boxed Duran from the outside instead of trying to be macho and fight Duran's fight which as a welterweight was more inside. Roberto quit on his stool because he knew he was outclassed with that style Ray was using, he had no shot. To make a fighter like Roberto Duran quit is some all time stuff

Marvin cost himself that fight with Ray by not letting his hands go more, he was WAY too passive IMO.

Marvin claimed Ray was jumping around like a bunny rabbit. Roberto at the time thought Sugar Ray was a chump for what he did. Apparently he buried the hatchet with Ray years later, I heard they hugged each other recently.

Timmy84 said:

^ Yeah he's overrated to the hilt. Marvin Hagler could've won their fight if the ref in the fight wasn't being paid by Ray's promoters, same with Roberto Duran in their second bout. Ray can claim he outsmarted Marvin but I know the truth. Marvin reminds me of Joe Frazier: a great fighter, misunderstood and riled in the press for no damn reason. The media created them as villains to go against the men they created as heroes: Sugar Ray "I was on cocaine when I fought Hagler" Leonard and Muhammad "poisoned by Elijah Muhammad and his goons and his managers" Ali.

[Edited 10/7/12 22:56pm]

Yeah, I remembered Marvelous Marvin with his shiny bald head . What he's doing nowadays? Sugar Ray started his boxing career in the 1976 Olympics, didn't he? Elijah Muhammad was dead before he started out, I think. About Duran, I saw the first fight that he won. I was in middle school. I didn't see the second won which he lost, but I remembered the news headlines in big letters, saying "NO MAS, NO MAS". I think he's doing well. He has a successful business in Panama, I think. I'm glad they've buried the hatchet, him and Leonard. Just like Frazier and Ali, and Ali went to his funeral.

Another thing. I'm not surprised if most of these sports are rigged, especially boxing. The mob is heavily involved.

Timmy84 said:

Beautifulstarr123 said:

He has to care, to some extent, if it's been burning in his head for awhile. Where in his posting does it said he doesn't care?

I do care. Ali was brainwashed to the hilt by everybody. He's being used now as a freaking sideshow with people putting words in his mouth since his puglistic Parkinson started affecting him in the late 1970s and early 1980s. The man was never a hero, he was used and abused and the media that embraces him rather not hear the truth, rather not know about his own dirty deeds in the ring trying to make him into this perfect fighter who also happen to refuse to serve in Vietnam due to religious beliefs (when it was clearly a string pulling by Elijah Muhammad). Malcolm X recalled he wasn't really much of a leader either until he left the NOI in 1964. He recalled the years he spent in the NOI as a "zombie" for twelve years. So if Malcolm (or as he renamed himself after leaving the NOI, El-Hajj Malik el Shabazz) felt like he was a zombie with his puppet strings being pulled by Elijah's racist ass, what the hell does that make Ali?

[Edited 10/7/12 23:02pm]

Sure, the NOI played a big part in Ali's career. I think he's a Sunni Muslim now. I thought Malcolm left the NOI because Elijah Muhammad wasn't practicing what he preached, as a leader.

Beautifulstarr123 said:

Timmy84 said:

I do care. Ali was brainwashed to the hilt by everybody. He's being used now as a freaking sideshow with people putting words in his mouth since his puglistic Parkinson started affecting him in the late 1970s and early 1980s. The man was never a hero, he was used and abused and the media that embraces him rather not hear the truth, rather not know about his own dirty deeds in the ring trying to make him into this perfect fighter who also happen to refuse to serve in Vietnam due to religious beliefs (when it was clearly a string pulling by Elijah Muhammad). Malcolm X recalled he wasn't really much of a leader either until he left the NOI in 1964. He recalled the years he spent in the NOI as a "zombie" for twelve years. So if Malcolm (or as he renamed himself after leaving the NOI, El-Hajj Malik el Shabazz) felt like he was a zombie with his puppet strings being pulled by Elijah's racist ass, what the hell does that make Ali?

[Edited 10/7/12 23:02pm]

Sure, the NOI played a big part in Ali's career. I think he's a Sunni Muslim now. I thought Malcolm left the NOI because Elijah Muhammad wasn't practicing what he preached, as a leader.

That was another reason Malcolm left. I just read parts of the Ghosts of Manila book. It seems any attempt people make Ali to be "bigger than boxing" seem at best failed attempts and anything successful it's due to people taking control of him and putting words in his mouth. Khalilah Ali, one of his daughters, claimed Lonnie Ali is a control freak (and I can believe her). Ali is into Sufism now. He did convert to Sunni Islam in 1975.